So how good is the new Dwarf book?

I just want to know what I'll be facing.

Haven't picked up the new book yet, but already hearing cries of cheese from the internet...

Something about a S6 T6 W6 1+/4++ Lord weighing in at 286pts...

JJ

Are there any links to any reviews or summaries of it? My google fu is failing me miserably today...

No reviews as of yet, but the book is still a little too fresh. The closest I could find was the below discussion over on Warseer;

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?389814-Book-of-Grudges-New-8th-Editon-Dawi-Tactics

JJ

Something about a S6 T6 W6 1+/4++ Lord weighing in at 286pts...

Hm, my math at him at 296 (hah)


[edit]

Anyway, I played two games with my friend and much chatting about the book.

Things Dwarfs lost:

Ludicrous magic defense - Runesmiths/Lords channel, don't get free dispel dice, and can't stack 3 dispel scrolls - They do have a banner that gives them +4 to dispel and removes RIM spells on a 3+ (or 4+, can't remember)
Cheap Artillery
Rerollable Armor Saves
Anvil Of Doom Shenanigans
Autohit Organ Guns

Things they gained:
+1 Str on the charge
+1 parry saves on being charged
Potential for army-wide hatred of any army
Nastier Hammerers
More Templates
Easier access to Vanguard moves
More units can be stubborn


The new Flame Cannon has old flame cannon tactics (reach out and panic someone), the new organ gun sucks (Yes, it doesn't autohit but its got a bigger range and more shots fired) and gyrocopters do funny things.

Dwarf special characters (asides from Thorek, who got a massive hit of the nerfbat thanks to the Anvil of Doom being terribad) are pretty swanky on the whole.

 In general, I think Dwarf troops got a bit nastier than they used to be and war machines got more expensive. A gunline still will be a threat, but its more expensive and will have less troops. Slayers are actually annoying now and will cause hurt

I can write up more thoughts later.

There isn't a single way for Dwarfs to get a re-rollable armour save aside from a 1 use 15 point rune that lest them re-roll one hit, wound, save or characteristic test in the game. They do however have several ways of increasing their toughness and wounds characteristics. The new runes provide several ways of getting the Multiple Wounds D3 or D6 rule, but usually at a prohibitive cost. The army can pack as many S4 flaming breath weapons as they have characters if your opponent wants to be cheesy with the runic item rules.
We don't really have to worry as much about the Parry rules since our impact hits and stomps ignore those anyways. Additionally the new slayer rule, Deathblow, which lets them make one extra attack right before being removed from play, does not apply to impact hits but does apply to stomps. Meaning whatever we can kill of them on the charge won't have a chance to hurt us.
I'll hopefully get a review of sorts up in the next week on this forum but I haven't playtested the army yet so I'l probably hold off until I can actually get a game or two in

Hang on, it's that Resolute rule that now gives them +1 Strength on the charge right?

Chaos Dwarves have that, and it has no explanation - just lists the rule name. So does that mean they now get it too? Huh, crazy!

Hang on, it's that Resolute rule that now gives them +1 Strength on the charge right?

Chaos Dwarves have that, and it has no explanation - just lists the rule name. So does that mean they now get it too? Huh, crazy!

Yep! All kinds of crazy... not that many Chaos Dwarf players are going to be trying to get charges off

JJ

Haven't picked up the new book yet, but already hearing cries of cheese from the internet...

Something about a S6 T6 W6 1+/4++ Lord weighing in at 286pts...

JJ

What is the problem about that? The lord wont do any mentionable damage... for those points you could bring a comparable tough steamtank and other minor stuff (if you play empire...)

the d3 wound is kinda scary for ogres.

The fire-rune cannons (and partially flame cannons) can somewhat be mitigated by a wall of a firebelly and then two characters with the 2++ against fire items.
Actually I see that fitting the meta good where magic and flaming attacks should be considered greatly, but if that also emphasizes too much rock-paper-scissor play I am not sure about. I hope dwarfs will be more fun to play but so far I am not too optimistic : (

One of the first levels of the runes gives double strength and d3 wounds on anything tough 5 or better. I made the mistake of buffing the toughness on a unit in a fight with that guy in it. Didn't bite me too badly but it certainly could have.

They also have a rune that makes a unit immune to dangerous terrain for 10 points. Not exactly a world breaker but might make it in lists with nothing better to waste points on

I'm very interested to see what they'll turn out like.  M3 is still their bane however.

Played 1500pts against my Dwarf friend today and came out the victor. The new Irondrakes (???) are pretty nasty, but expensive. Quick to Fire S5 shots are pretty nasty. They strip Regen (Flaming shots) and take away our armour. Luckily my friend made the mistake of shooting at my Toothcracker'd Stonehorn, and didn't do anything to him ...Then they got run over (twice) and the damage they could do was mitigated easily.

Longbeards are very nice now with Immune to Psych, ignoring panic, and allowing panic re-rolls within 6" added to that their better parry saves (getting charged) they can rank up and tarpit with the best of them. Throw in a Ld10 Thane and you're golden, if not stubborn. Overall a very balanced update with some neat, killy combos. Haven't faced Gyro spam yet but I'm sure that will be annoying.

I have the impression that the book lost most of the overly powerful items (some specific runes and the anvil) while the rest got a bit better BUT the book failed to solve the kinda innate issues with dwarfs being boring with a slow moving phase and close to no magic phase (spending points just to mitigate the opponents phase is no fun and hence reduces the game for both players).

I hope, I am dead wrong and dwarf got plenty new builds and a higher fun factor (I have a pile of dwarfs lying around which needs to see sun light). Prove me wrong : D

Aside from the lack of new releases (which most dwarf players seem to agree is a missed opportunity) I really like the new book. It will have some interesting synergies. Here are just some thoughts on the new book, I will add more as I think of them:

Most special and rare choices (inc Slayers) can take runic banners. This means that potentially 2-3 units can have Strollaz (now 12" vanguard), and providing you have no scouts to ruin the party, will be in your face by turn 2. Beware Rune of Slowness when charging, 1 rune take 1 D6" off your charge distance, 2 runes it's 2D6" choosing the highest value. This makes Dwarfs good at counter charging/stand & shoot reactions.

Hammerers have 2 attacks base and can take upto 75 points of banner runes. BSB with 3 runes of Battle could allow them to fight with an extra rank (but BSB will be vunerable). 40 hammerers means 40 attacks with 10 deaths allowed before combat effectiveness is diminished.

Oath Stones can move, and mean the unit has no flanks. This would mean Ironbreakers would always get the 5++ parry, irrespective of what flank you charge.

Dwarf gunlines are still incredibly strong. The flame cannon now follows rules for flame throwers so the range has increased, and can take runes (so could be strength 6, multiple wounds D3). As previously mentioned, the organ gun can take runes (I am toying with the idea of 2, both with Master engineers, one with +1S, the other +1 to hit). This could cause 15-20 wounds a turn with -3/-4 to an opponenets armour save (it will alsocost close to 500 points). Irondrakes could be particular vicious as large unit with 2 runes of Slowness, especially as they no longer suffer the -1 stand and shoot.

The Dwarf Air Brigade  - Dwarfs can now take upto 6 gyrocopters (half upgrading to vanguard, rounding up) and 2 gyrobombers (bombing run is like stone thrower, but with large template). This means potentially upto 6 flame templates a turn, and at T5, flying, could take out our kitties (and other redirectors). 6 gyro base cost is 480, so about the cost of a fully kitted out unit. It also gives a Dwarf army 6 drops, a massive boost as before typically it was 3 block with war machines.

Dwarf Runesmiths now only cost 30ss. For this they get the stats of a Hammerer, and armour piercing and magic res (1), which costs other armies 30ss for the two banners. They channel like Empire priests and can only take 1 dispel scroll each (or have it upgraded to spell breaker). At this point I think we will see more smiths than Runelords on the table. It does mean they could have up to 6 dispel scrolls at 2400. Runelords are double the cost. At this point it is unlikely you will see anvils as they now have mediocre (innate) bound spells and at the moment is a T5 war machine.

Ungrim Ironfist is an absolute beast in combat, with a 3+/4++, T6, wounding on 2's with KB, essentially OTS (re-roll successful ward saves), and Multiple Wounds d3 on monsters. He also allows 1 unit of slayers to take a 100 point banner. All this for 175ss.

Rune of parry could be particularly annoying, -1 to hit for 12.5ss.

Just as a last note, the amount of multiple wound runes and warmachines means that ogres need to be very careful around characters - although they are fairly expensive to get.

Dwarf players who want to castle up and play a gunline still can and they (the people playing the gunline) will be even less popular than before. It'll still work (arguably better than before) and be effective and not particularly fun to play against.

I think template spam could be a thing, gyrobombers + grudge throwers + flame cannons. This doesn't scare us so much but it could really hurt armies with lots of bodies.

They really can't shut down a magic phase like before, though, no more than an Ogre Kingdom army with a dispel scroll and a hellheart can. This at least alleviates some of the annoyance of playing against Dwarfs.

Their special characters are way hit and miss, They nerfed the High King and Thorek, Bugman's hilarious and the new characters are pretty strong from what I can see. I expect to see a few more of them in competitive lists

I do think the general buff to their troops encourages a more active dwarf playstyle, but we'll see how it shakes out.

Just played my first game with them vs Skaven more for the fluff of Belegar vs Queek + Bodyguard. I ran 2 gyrocoptors and a gyrobomber, they devastated the hordes and did more to thin them than a grudge thrower could, plus at the end I used them to hunt mages. Now against us the fliers are nigh useless, aside from the central hole being S6 D3 wounds they pose no threat and can be dealt with easily by using normal chaff clearing fireballs, thunderbolts, 4 leadies etc. Kitties will struggle with the WS4 T5 of them however.

Don't write off the Anvil of Doom yet - it's surprisingly powerful.
It comes base at 290 points, and at base is indeed cannon bait.  Unit it takes a 25 point rune to give it a 2+ war save against spells and shooting attacks.  In case you were wondering, it takes 210 long range shots to push 5 wounds on it.

Additionally, all of it's spells are innate, so it can just 6-dice anything without worrying about miscasts.  Plus the +1 to armor saves has no range and needs no LoS.  Finally, the magic missile is automatically the boosted version of the old one, so it's nasty enough.

The new dwarves (sorry, dwarFs) can bring 3 or 4 dispel scrolls (sorry, Runes) for pretty cheap.  I'm going to experiment with double spell eater, double spell breaker (sorry, two 2x spell breakers, and two 1x spell breakers).  And since the new Runelords/smiths give their units armor piercing (including their ranged attacks, so quarrelers are now definitely superior), you can always expect to see two and probably 3 dispel runes, with probably a good chance at two of them being the "forget that spell on a 4+" version.

The new lords can easily be super-defensive (T6 or 7 with 1+/5++ is easy to do), but making them super-killy is much more expensive.  Our biggest issue is that the Rune of Might (doubles strength against T5 or above) is a nice economic start to the weapon runes, and will probably be the most prevalent.

The sole uses of the old Anvil (impeding enemy movement and pushing a unit into combat) are gone.  The only reason I could see in taking one now is for the boost to dispelling, assuming you are in a cannon light meta.  You pretty much HAVE to put the relic armor on the guy if you want him to live.  The armor boost is the one nice thing he does, but its not 300 points of nice.

And, no Nim, you can only have one dispel type rune per model, so you need a separate character for every single dispel rune.  Further, unless it is worded otherwise, the AP will only apply to close combat (see main rulebook as it pertains to the Razor Standard), so quarrelers will not benefit.  Having said that, I do feel Quarrelers are the best ranged unit in the book (thanks to range and core status) and that having a rune guy in every combat block is a worthwhile use of points, to augment those units in combat.

The main problem with this book is the price hikes on everything.  Really, every unit in the book (aside from Warriors, Copters, and Hammerers) is a bit overcosted.  If you want all of these amazing toys, you will not have much on the table.  So, its back to full frontal male nudity gunline with the army again.....

Runelords/smiths give armor piercing via a special rule added to the unit, in the same way that Been there Done That gives poison to maneaters.  If the poison applies to maneater's ranged attacks, then the armor piercing applies to the quarreler's ranged attacks.  That's been the consensus among every person I've talked to about the book.

And yes, you have to talk multiple characters to get multiple runes, sorry if I was unclear.  That being said, taking multiple runesmiths isn't that expensive, or that bad a thing to do.

Reread the main book.  The rules for AP and poison are worded slightly differently.  You might be right, though I know there were some discussions about this long ago.

Multiple smiths is good for boosting a mmu unit based list, but a vast waste of points for magic defense when people are just going to six dice stuff if you load up anyhow.

My next plan for them is to fit as many vanguard/stubborn banners in as I can. I'm trying every possibility before heading back to the gunline. I agree with Nim that handguns are far inferior to quarrelers now that they lost the +1 to hit, no Stand and Shoot Modifier is not compensation.

I find the biggest issue with the weapon runes is the inability to truly make a killer out of him, with only 2 runes boosting strength and no way to get more than +1 S on him other than through a great weapon (which can't be runed up anymore) the only options realistically are the decent runes that increase hitting and the defensive ones like Rune of Parrying or Rune of Striking. I can't see myself taking more than Parrying and Might from those two pages and its a damn shame. The Armour Runes are almost all useful in some way, and I'm seeing immediately the need for 2 smiths and a runelord to make the antimagic work.

I think Dwarfs will be fine with two of (Spellbreaker/spelleater/Valaya) for magic defense. You won't be able to reproduce the absolute lockdown that was the previous edition but you don't need it quite so badly with other options.

You can easily get two Strollaz-rune banners, so that's two vanguarding Longbeards, Ironbreakers, Irondrakes, or Slayer units.  You can then take two more Strollaz-rune banners, but one has to be on a unit of Hammerers (they can take a more expensive runic standard), and the other has to be on your BSB.  However, if you combine Strollaz with the Master rune of Grungni, you can still get a 3+/4++ BSB, along with some added shooting protection.

I think you can expect to see one or two vanguarding units from now on.

Just hope its somewhat of an improvement over the last. Nothing I hate more than playing a castled dwarf. So boring

I actually think the builds for Dwarf Lords are particularly exciting! Been toying with certain builds, and it is actually quite easy to go defensive or offensive.

Bargain Monster-killer for only 298 points.

Dwarf Lord, Shield Bearers, Shield, Rune of Might, Rune of Smiting, Master Rune of Snorri.

A lord with a 1+ Armour Save and 5 Wounds, S4 against anything under T5, S8 against anything T5 or greater, ASF and d6 Wounds with each hit.

"Blender" Lord for 288 points.

Lord, Shield Bearers, Shield, 3 Runes of Fury.
 
1++ Save, T5, 8 Attacks, 6 of which can generate additional attacks. S5 on the charge. If you have a Runesmith in the same unit, even better.
 
Potentially, 14 S5 AP attacks on the charge.

Defensive Lord

Lord, Shieldbearers, Shield, 2x Rune of Fortitude, Rune of Iron. Runic Weapon, with Rune of Might and Rune of Parrying.
 
T6 W6 lord with 1+ armour save and 5+ ward save, who doubles his strength against T5 or above and either hits on 2+ or is -1 to hit himself.

Haven't had this much fun building characters since the Vampire book a few years back

JJ

Haven't had this much fun building characters since the Vampire book a few years back

Same here! The new models are really groovy, so I've been toying with different options. I really want to include the new models and create a themed army, so I've been looking at filling out the core with Longbeards and Quarrellers (that's a difficult word to type...). Then bulk out the army with Ironbreakers, Hammerers and Irondrakes. And of course, a unit of Miners as well as a unit of Rangers, accompanied by Josef Bugman himself!

Mind you, this is in no way thought out as a strong choice of options, I just like the models. And as I'm a very casual gamer, the use of less-than-optimal choices is not a problem

- Loran

Wow! Pretty much going for every Infantry choice in the book, aside from Slayers! Not a fan of the Gyro-Apples?

JJ

Beware Rune of Slowness when charging, 1 rune take 1 D6" off your charge distance, 2 runes it's 2D6" choosing the highest value. This makes Dwarfs good at counter charging/stand & shoot reactions

the horrible thing about it is that if you take three it adds ASL on top of 2D6 take the highest!!!!

Wow! Pretty much going for every Infantry choice in the book, aside from Slayers! Not a fan of the Gyro-Apples?

Not every infantry choice, leaving out the Warriors, Thunderers and Slayers Also not sure of the Miners, but definitely going to get some Rangers to accompany Bugman. As for the Gyro-Apple, I'll reserve judgement until I see the model "in person" or pictures of one made by a hobbyist. The pics in the WD Weekly and WD Daily look strange... I do like the idea though, so I'll probably end up getting a couple of them and converting a bit. We'll see...

- Loran

I just built one last night.  Personally I like the smoother, steam-punk look.  A little hard to make the kit swappable from copter to bomber, but if you have a spare 40mm base, and something to use as a main rotor and cockpit (old 40k IG sentinel cockpits, for me) you can build a bomber AND a copter per kit.

How viable is the triple rune of flame option?

The S4 breath weapon with d3 wounds scare me a bit on paper but I assume that the character would then not bring anything else?

I just built one last night.  Personally I like the smoother, steam-punk look.  A little hard to make the kit swappable from copter to bomber, but if you have a spare 40mm base, and something to use as a main rotor and cockpit (old 40k IG sentinel cockpits, for me) you can build a bomber AND a copter per kit.

Sounds very interesting indeed! I would love to see this done, just as a guideline for when I grab my Dwarf army on payday. Sounds like a great way to save money

JJ

How viable is the triple rune of flame option?

The S4 breath weapon with d3 wounds scare me a bit on paper but I assume that the character would then not bring anything else?

Honestly I can't remember what the third rune does for Flame, but the relic/heirloom item gives the same effect as 2 runes of flame, but for 15 points cheaper, AND doesn't use up weapon-rune slots.

2 Runes of Flame are 50 pts, 3 are 125, a Lord's entire runic allowance. No one will ever take it. I think dwarfs now have a magic weapon worse than our Siegebreaker, Hammer of Karak Drazh. 65 pts, gives +3 Initiative and any model wounded has their Initiative reduced to 1 for the rest of the combat phase.

Yeah, I was trying to think of good ways to use that weapon, and the only thing I could come up with was dropping VC heroes to Init 1.  Seems completely worthless.

The build I am kind of worried about with both Ogres and DoC is:

Lord on Trashcan lid,  +1 W, d6 Multiple Wounds, x2 STR vs T5
No save to speak of, but at what will generally be S8 MWd6, he will **hurt** anything major he faces.  Also, with 6 wounds, he will likely live to do it, especially if he is sitting with a Rune of Slowness unit.  Hell, even at just S4 the d6 MW will put the fear of god into most elven characters, too.  He is pretty expensive for all of that, though.


Edited by BB - careful with word choices, remember it's a forum for all

Isn't he only I4 though? Pretty much any character is striking before him and there are a lot of characters that can wound him easy enough and have gear that can help survivability. Plus, against normal infantry he's a complete waste. If you don't allow him to get into characters then it's a terrible build.

That is a rather savage character killer... and does the trashcan lid party still have all its own attacks?

If so I can see that being relatively viable. Has he got a ward save? Lore of Death could be somewhat irksome for the guy...

That particular build doesn't have a ward save, but he IS a 1+ with 6 wounds.  Death wouldn't be too scary either, since he's Ld10 (for spirit leech), or would be facing 2d6-4 wound on a 4+ (caress) or 2d6-5 on a 2+ (bruna).  The bearers provide 2 additional WS5 S4 attacks.

Just about the only characters that he would hate to fight are Empire and Brets, or Chaos heroes.  Basically anything thats T4 but can get a good save.

Stick him with a runesmith/lord for a MR save vs death.

Drop Josef Bugman with him to regain d3 wounds a turn.

Hilarity ensues

... and that would leave you with a M3 character-bunker and wont see any combat : )

I reckon dwarfs will be forced to split their forces a bit if they want to be playing offensive vanguard builds.

depends.  After several test games it looks like a good dwarf army needs to pick a central theme and go all-out with it.  So massive gunline, or horde infantry for example.  Vanguarding will be one of those themes, and you can easily get 3 big vanguarding blocks of infantry (and thats without sacrificing your BSB).

No, this particular build's big fear is killing blow.  Won't help us, but it will cut down the likelihood of seeing this build in tournament play.

I agree Nim, my first few games have shown the pick a theme and go with it idea work. A dwarf army will not likely have stubborn alongside big shooty units beside a vanguarding unit. The problem with the dwarf lord in my eyes is while he is a tank that can take quite the punishing and survive (mine toppled Hellebron in a challenge without the T10 armour) it is very hard to get him in a position where he can actually do that because of the M3. And even if he gets into a favourable combat it is very hard to let him take the heavy hits for the unit because a good opponent will not accept a challenge with their blender lord/chaos killer/old blood, but instead offer/ accept with a spare character or champ. So while we can admire the Dwarf Lord (why he just called Lord now? side rant) there isn't really much to fear from him even if he rocks the build Phazael mentioned.

You can easily get two Strollaz-rune banners, so that's two vanguarding Longbeards, Ironbreakers, Irondrakes, or Slayer units.  You can then take two more Strollaz-rune banners, but one has to be on a unit of Hammerers (they can take a more expensive runic standard), and the other has to be on your BSB.  However, if you combine Strollaz with the Master rune of Grungni, you can still get a 3+/4++ BSB, along with some added shooting protection.

I think you can expect to see one or two vanguarding units from now on.

Forgive my ignorance on the topic, but why would a dwarf player want so many units vanguarding?  It seems like you would be isolating them or leaving them out to die on their own against higher movement armies?  I haven't played a dwarf army since about 1995, so my understanding of them is probably worse than someone completely new to the army.

As far as I'm aware (I also have somewhat limited knowledge with the new book), but combat armies are now a very good possibility in the new book, so getting there (which is hard for dwarfs) a little easier isn't a bad idea. Hammerers rushing into combat is scary for your opponent, because they get turned into paste, and scary for you, because you have to wipe all the blood off of your miniatures and wonder how it got there....

Forgive my ignorance on the topic, but why would a dwarf player want so many units vanguarding?  It seems like you would be isolating them or leaving them out to die on their own against higher movement armies?

Ah, but there's the rub: Those vanguarding units are NOT in isolation.  They are right up in your grill with two or three of their buddies with them. 

You have less chance to redirect them, less chance to winnow them down with shooting, less chance to bombard them with magic or buff your own troops, less chance to maneuver for an ideal charge.  Plus, these lists lend themselves to lower-drop-count armies, which gives them the bonus to going first, and Vanguard lets them recover against being out-positioned.  And in another case of best/worst case scenarios, Dwarf units have rules to help both defensive and offensive situations, with Shieldwall helping to withstand a charge, and Whatever-it's-called giving them +1S on the charge (makes Longbeards and Ironbreakers NASTY).

In full Vanguard armies you also see a few minimum units of Rangers to play counter-vanguard, which also helps with counter-scouting.

The amusing thing is that over at Bugman's Brewery, the community is all about "Neither of our Lord choices are worth it!  Just take another Runesmith as your General!!"  Sure, it gives up points if you kill him, but with universal Ld9+, I can see the arguement.

I played against it, its the same old crap, different day.

Still has tons of cannons, still sits on his ass on the hill.