2500 vs woc

I didn't take any pictures because I wasn't doing to good right off the bat.

He got first turn, cast doom and darkness on my ironguts (which I stupidly placed far away from my BSB) shot it with a hell cannon so that's -4 to my leadership and that unit and my butcher ran off the table first turn.  Other than that he parked his chimeras, 1 in front of my Ironblaster, the other in front of my other ironguts. Put his demon prince right next to them. 

My turn I charged his chimera, both of them actually, one with my gnoblar trappers to hold him up for two turns the other with my ironguts. I got troll guts off only once all turn. And my hell heart I rolled a 1 on his next turn, so that was a wasted 50 points, and anything other than a 1 would have hit his demon prince and his level 2. 

By turn 3 he was in combat with my ironguts with his DP and chariot, I slaughtered the chariot and chimera that turn and put a wound on his DO. The chimera finally killed my gnoblars. 

I than charged my ironguts into his chaos warriors, rolled a 10 which was helpful, I did pretty good with impact hits, got 4 wounds off, had my cat in one side but he was steadfast, I won combat by 5 but didn't matter, kitty took out his wizard on the second round of combat.  Mourn fang charged his BSB. And completely flubbed, no wounds, he did 3 back, I fled and got ran down, the 3 cats I had charge his hell cannon did 2 wounds but that's it, they died second round of combat, I lost both ironblasters by turn 4. All my MF, all I had left was my SM and 2 ironguts, which died and all that was left was my SM. So I got tabled first game, makes me weary about ogres but we'll see how next time goes.  Sorry for no pictures but it went pretty sadly lol

WoC is a strong matchup against us in most situations. Especially for your first game, this maybe wasn't the best opponent to have to go up against. However, we do learn more from losses than from victories.

How many points was the game? What was your list? Also, what was your opponent's list (to the best of your knowledge)? Mentioning those things at the front of a batrep helps us to see what you've got and what you're up against; that way, we can give more practical and applicable advice. That is, if you want advice

Oh, and I hate the Hellcannon. But, then again, I personally hate the WoC army; even after its update, I still feel it's undercosted in many respects (or just plain op).

I would love advice yes! I learned a lot from my mistakes that's for sure but the experienced people on here is what I want, so sorry for no lists, but here they are.

Woc
1 demon prince, soul feeder, chaos armor, scaly skin, mark of burgle, level 4 in shadow I think, charmed shield, other tricksters shard I think and maybe something else

Lvl 2 wizard of death I think not sure what he had

Exalted hero, scaly skin, chaos Armour, bearded demonic steed, not sure what else, BSB and he was tzeench.

28 chaos warriors

2 chimeras

2 hell cannons

1 chariot



Me
SM level 4 of the maw, hellheart and Armour of destiny
BSB with crown of command
Butcher with dispel scroll lore of beasts

9 ironguts with banner of discipline

9'ironguts

12 gnoblar trappers

11 gnoblar trappers

2 ironblasters

4 mourn fang with heavy Armour and iron fists, dragon hide banner

2x1 cats

1 unit of 3 cats for war machines

Hmm...maybe some maneaters would have been beneficial. Turn one unit of ironguts into a unit of ogres with ironfists and drop the unit of 3 sabretusks to save points for 3 maneaters. The additional plus is that not all of your main units will be going last.

-GL

Ok I'll probably try that, I changed my list to 9 ogres and 9 ironguts, I also added a stone horn, would man eaters be better?  And I forgot, I should have grape shot his chimera.  Do those cause D6 wounds a piece as well?

As mentioned, WoC isn't our best matchup, so don't despair too much.

Ok I'll probably try that, I changed my list to 9 ogres and 9 ironguts, I also added a stone horn, would man eaters be better?  And I forgot, I should have grape shot his chimera.  Do those cause D6 wounds a piece as well?

No, Grapeshot just does one wound per shot. The other option for the Chimera directly in front of you is to run the chariot 6'' away from the longest edge of the chimera, aim the cannonball directly in front of the ironblaster and try to not roll a 10 on the first shot. Either that or just charge and try not to fail the impact hits roll. Grapeshot is... really not worth that much.


From the way you described things, it looks like you made mistakes on deployment - as you mentioned things like ironguts being outside of BSB range and some other weird matchups. With single sabertusks (and ironblasters), you can usually get a few favorable matchups lined up.


I pretty much advocate never charging gnoblar trappers (especially units of <30) at... anything. Throwing them in front of the chaos warriors would have potentially picked off a warriors on failed dangerous terrain and given your guts a chance to fight squishier targets

Ya, once that first turn 700 points ran off the board I knew I made a mistake, I didn't know that the hell cannon made you make a panic test. Also charging the ironblastet would have been a better idea.

Next time I will put them closer together, I switched the list a little bit. Is a stone horn better than man eaters? I do not believe I got a response on that yet, but also if I have them the flaming banner it wouldn't be a bad idea, they would be monster hunters than.  I figured my mournfang could take his bsb, but I was extremely wrong about that, killed one and I fled, he ran me down. 1+ refillable on the bsb plus his 5+ up ward or something was tough. 

Also, just to make sure, you only have to take a dangerous terrain for trappers if you charge them, not if they charge you correct?

I would also never take units of sabertusks. Already run them in singles and out of panic range. If you run it in a unit or is just to easy to kill one and force the unit to make a panic test on leadership 4.

Out of curiosity, does charmed shield work against cannons? Since all you do is roll to wound right?  Also does the flaming banner and poisoned attacks on man eaters apply to impact hits or stomps?

Out of curiosity, does charmed shield work against cannons? Since all you do is roll to wound right?  Also does the flaming banner and poisoned attacks on man eaters apply to impact hits or stomps?

The charmed shield does work against cannons.  Cannons count as hitting a model should the cannonball's bounce pass through the unit.  You need to shoot off the shield first before using the cannon.

The flaming banner should apply to the impact hits and stomps since they count as attacks.

Poisoned attacks do not apply to impact hits or stomps, since both are auto hits.  Poison only works if you roll a 6 to hit.  No to-hit roll, no poison attacks.

Hope that helps.

Yes indeed it does thank you, does the person with the shield have to use it for the first hit or can they wait till later?

Your stonehorn will be a magnet for his cannon to shoot at. Maneaters can make strong WM hunters and flank chargers, they can also be used to fill different roles (with scout, sniping, etc).

-GL

Yes indeed it does thank you, does the person with the shield have to use it for the first hit or can they wait till later?

It has to be used for the first hit.

This is all very helpful thank you guys.  I made a different list, no stonehorn and pretty much switched them for ME,  1 SM Talisman of preservation, charmed shield, and he'll heart

1 bsb with crown of command, dragon helm, heavy armour

1 butcher with dispel scroll and maybe something else

9 ironguts

12 ogres

10 gnoblar trappers

3x1 saber tusks

4 man eaters, poison and stubborn (or would immune I psychology be better?). Due pistols on all of them, I didn't put heavy armour though, with full command and banner pf eternal flame

4 mournfang, dragon hide banner, heavy armour and ironists

1 ironblaster

How's that sound? That's off of memory as well

Scout and poison for the ME is arguably the best.

Scout and poison for the ME is arguably the best.

I would actually put an asterisk in that.

Scout and poison for the ME is arguably the best *






*assuming that the opponent leaves enough space on one flank or another to allow for you to scout outside of their charge/firing arc.




Last time I played with scout/poison ME, my opponent was playing HE MMU.  He spaced everything out so that the only place to scout was on my side.  Complete waste of a ME ability.

That is why it is arguably. Still lets you finish deploying quicker, then you get to counter deploy a strong unit after seeing where all his base units are. Correct?

Fair enough.  You have a very valid point.

Still, to me the value of scout is that you can cause disruption to their battle plan and (more importantly) their battle line.  If you are not going to be able to cause that disruption by placing your unit outside of their forward arc, then scout is not worth taking over something like stubborn, sniper or ItP.

The way I see it, with chaos it wouldn't be to bad trying to find room. With skaven or elves that may be different.
I may try scouting than