Bulls vs Guts?

Ah the age old question of the Ogre core choices.

To Bull or to Gut?

I think the general consensus is that Guts are overwhelmingly better than bulls, but I'm not so sure, I like to have variety in my lists and I really like the regular ogres.

I guess I just what to guage what you guys think? What's your preference? And what sort of scenario or match ups do you think each shines in?

SOM

Well.. bulls are cheaper but guts have gw and can take a magic banner : ) Beyond that the uses differ from player to player.

MY preferred uses are:

Bulls: Support unit, 3-6 troops or 10+ to harbor 3-4 characters for a Beast-magic character bus build. The low prices and parry just delivers a lot of wounds and hence ranks and hopefully steadfast if you have an unlucky combat phase.

Irongut: My main combat unit that can kill stuff by it self - a nobrainer choice for carnage or to put my wizrd general together with the leadership banner.

The MSU people out there will surely post other uses : )

Guts are easier, they require no buffs to smash things and can take a magic banner. But they attack on ASL, which sometimes is a problem and others means nothing because ogres are I2 anyway. They have no ward save without buffs, though.

Bulls (or 'Ogres' as the book moronically names them) don't have the smash of ironguts and can't take a magic banner, they also have even cruddier leadership. However, they do buff well (4->5 str is more likely to be a performance increase over 6->7) and have a parry save. You also get about a third more bodies for you points, which is a bigger bonus that some may think - especially when you get a parry save to save a few more wounds. They also eat chaff and t3/str3 models like every ogre ever.


My preference : Why not both?

I really like both.  I think that a beasts butcher with bulls and a maw slaughtermaster with guts does the trick.  Wyssians on the bulls and T on the guts, and try and keep them near each other so the slaughtermaster can do regen on either or both. 

I horde ogres. But with MSU, I take either just ironguts or both.

I did play once with gnoblars as my core. I had a big block of 100 trapping gnoblar horde, and a few supporting 10 trapper gnoblars, with a bunch of leadies, slaughtermaster, dual ironblaster and bruiser bsb. Eventually, there was a tetris of units all attacking each other

I certainly wouldn't say that there is a consensus on which is better. But I would agree with the statements made already, bulls are an anvil with some bite and guts are a sledgehammer.
I run a unit of each in almost every list. They fulfill two different roles so well I know no matter what I face I'm certain to find a use in every game for each one.

I think the general consensus is that both have an equal place in the Ogre Kingdoms army.  I think where the line becomes blurry is when people expect a unit to fill both roles as well as the other unit which isn't going to happen unless of course you get very lucky with spell selection and manage to get them off.

I find bulls more durable with less punch.  What I like about them they don't automatically strike last.  Lower leadership and no banner account for the lower points otherwise they would be far superior to Guts. 

The banner is the reason to take guts.  They are glass jawed compared to bulls.  GW are not exciting to me minor penalty sure.  ASL and crap armor sucks.

I run equal units bulls and guts.  My bulls almost always cover double their points I am a mmu guy. 9 to 10 a unit.

I find bulls more durable with less punch.  What I like about them they don't automatically strike last.  Lower leadership and no banner account for the lower points otherwise they would be far superior to Guts. 

The banner is the reason to take guts.  They are glass jawed compared to bulls.  GW are not exciting to me minor penalty sure.  ASL and crap armor sucks.

I run equal units bulls and guts.  My bulls almost always cover double their points I am a mmu guy. 9 to 10 a unit.     

This is exactly what I have found. Vs any unit with GWs barring HEs, you will be glad you took bulls and not IGs. 10 bulls can shave off a lot of incoming attacks from GWs whereas IGs face the full onslaught.

Having said that, they both have a certain role. Bulls for T4 or less lightly armoured enemy and IG for heavily armoured or T5+ units. Bulls will struggle vs 1+ armour and IG will struggle vs massive low T and unarmoured ranked units where S6 and less models to attack with will reduce damage done.

If I see a unit of IGs against me I throw my large bull unit at it.
12 bulls 6x2 vs 8 IGs 4x2
12 bulls = 36 attacks
18 hit
9 wounds
= 8 wounds after armour save
8 IGs is now 6 IGs.
18 attacks = 9 hit
= 8 wounds
= 7 wounds after parry
CR
Bulls = 8 wounds + std + 1 rank
IGs = 7 wounds + std
IG lose by 1. lets go T2

10 bulls 6x2 vs 6 IGs 4x2
10 bulls = 30 attacks
15 hit
8 wounds
= 7 wounds after armour save
6 IGs is now 4 IGs.
12 attacks = 6 hit
= 5 wounds
= 5 wounds after parry
CR
Bulls = 7 wounds + std
IGs = 5 wounds + std

The bulls now have 8 models left with 24 wounds remaining whereas the IGs have 3 models left with 9 wounds. The bulls will grind the IG down given enough time.

To make that fight fair, put bulls in 4x3 formation or 3x4 as i've not seen bulls in 6x2.
A more standard formation and do the mathhammer again

This is how it should carry out.

12 Bulls, Command, Shields  -  414    4x3 formation

9 Ironguts, Command  -  417    4x2 formation, 1 dangling in back.

Assuming no impact hits for either side so that it is balanced.  Also, assume all Ld tests are passed.

Bulls 1
25 Attacks  =  12.5 hits  =  6.26 wounds  =  5.20833 unsaved   (1 Dead, 8 Remain)
Ironguts 1
25 Attacks  =  12.5 hits  =  10.41667 wounds  =  8.68056 unsaved   (2 Dead, 10 Remain)

Bulls 2
25 Attacks  =  12.5 hits  =  6.26 wounds  =  5.20833 unsaved   (3 Dead, 6 Remain)
Ironguts 2 
19 Attacks  =  9.5 hits  =  7.916667 wounds  =  6.5972 unsaved  (5 Dead, 7 Remain)

Bulls 3
22 Attacks  =  11 hits  =  5.5 wounds  =  4.58333 unsaved  (5 Dead, 4 Remain)
Ironguts 3
13 Attacks  =  6.5 hits  =  5.41 wounds  =  4.51388 unsaved  (6 Dead, 6 Remain)

Bulls 4
19 Attacks  =  9.5 hits  =  4.25 wounds  =  3.541667 unsaved   (6 Dead, 3 Remain)
Ironguts 4
10 Attacks  =  5 hits  =  4.1667 wounds  =  3.47223 unsaved   (7 Dead, 5 Remain)

Bulls 5
16 Attacks  =  8 hits  =  4 wounds  =  3.3333 unsaved   (7 Dead, 2 Remain)
Ironguts 5
7 Attacks  =  3.5 hits  =  2.9166 wounds  =  2.4305 unsaved   (8 Dead, 4 Remain)

Bulls 6
13 Attacks  =  6.5 hits  =  3.25 wounds  =  2.70833 unsaved   (8 Dead, 1 Remains)
Ironguts 6
4 Attacks  =  2 hits  =  1.667 wounds   =  1.38889 unsaved   (9 Dead, 3 Remain)

Bulls 7
10 Attacks  =  5 hits  =  2.5 wounds  =  2.08333 unsaved   (8 Dead, 1 Remains)
Ironguts 8
4 Attacks  =  2 hits  =  1.667 wounds   =  1.38889 unsaved   (9 Dead, 3 Remain)

Bulls 8
10 Attacks  =  5 hits  =  2.5 wounds  =  2.08333 unsaved   (9 Dead, 0 Remain)
Ironguts 8
No retaliation.

Unit of Bulls wins with 7.528 wounds remaining.  I'd say that match is pretty close.

But why are the gnoblars left out? Surely they wont kill much BUT they have a great role to play still.

I often include 2-3 units of 10-20 gnoblars - they are dirt cheap and dont cause panic like the SP. The low movement although dictates that gnoblar fits defensive armies better or just to hang around warmachine to redirect once.

My problem with the guts is that my opponents know how beefy the unit is and will send everything at it. Shooting will wear it down and initial charges hurts. I always calculate that my guts unit will lose around 130-170 point worth of wounds/models before I strike. That is a lot of dead point I will never get value for! and I lose my ranks and even support attacks. Of course you can argue that it is the price to pay like a WOC army also has to calculate loses before CC - yet the ASL just means that I can be 200 pt down in ONE unit before I strike and that makes it rough.

I agree that Gnoblars shouldn't be overlooked as a core choice - Although I also think that taking only gnoblars for core is also a bad idea - you need some balance. From what I can see their main downside is their M4 compared to every other thing in the Ogre book's M6, but I use them for board control. My point being that what gnoblars are great for is holding up enemy chaffe and gaining you one or two turns of board control, which I find is crucial to my play style (MSU shooty - so shoot things into smaller pieces so my Ironguts can handle them).

On the main question from the topic - I feel the only advantage of Bulls over guts is the cheaper cost. With Ironfist bulls you'll get roughly 4 for every 3 guts. They certainly have a use you just need to pick their targets well. The great thing about iron guts is that if your unit is big enough you can usually throw them headlong into any enemy unit and expect them to emerge victorious, and even if they aren't they are not about to lose combat easily and break straight off.

With bulls you dont have that freedom. They have similar destructive capabilities but they have to be put up against enemies they can handle (for example try putting them against demigryph knights.... They wont stand a chance). Having said that I really like the variety using bulls gives you so I think all our core choies are extremely valid options.

I personally believe it's useless to compare them, because in my eyes they have different roles.

It's like trying to compare a canoe and a car on their usefulness on the road.  Sure both are modes of transport, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be rowing down the highway.

IG are there as my main combat block that can take on almost anything head on (probably with many casualties themselves)

Bulls are there to run around in units of 3 and bash into flanks as support in combat, hold up enemy tarpits or even clear enemy chaff and hunt war machines or ranged units (archers, handgunners etc.)

I hear you shouting: "But Maan!  The enemy will just blow the snot out of your bulls with the same archers/gunners/ warmachines they need to hunt!"
True, but then they aren't shooting at my unit of 9 IG or my 6 ME or my MF.  If 3 bulls can get the attention of a cannon from my IG to themselves even for just 1 turn, they are still doing a good job!

And on the flank issue:
12 S4 attacks are always welcome in the flank of any ongoing combat.

To make that fight fair, put bulls in 4x3 formation or 3x4 as i've not seen bulls in 6x2.
A more standard formation and do the mathhammer again

Well thats a bit presumptious that your meta is the world wide one. But i have found that its the only way to run them. 6 in the front and 6 in the back. when you get that D3 impacts off its brilliant. i would rather 6S5 impacts than 4 S6 impacts.

with normal attacks 6x2 is superior. 6x2 = 36 attacks. 4x3 = 24 attacks.
6 stomp vs 4 stomp = more chances to wound.
sure you get more ranks and a better chance to not having an oppo steadfast with 4x3 but with the extra damage from the 6x2 the enemy may not even have the ranks left
ie
+2 impact hits at S5. sure the S6 is nice but generally theres not much difference between S5 and S6.
+12 attacks
+2 stomp
vs
+2 ranks CR.

I think the general consensus is that both have an equal place in the Ogre Kingdoms army.  I think where the line becomes blurry is when people expect a unit to fill both roles as well as the other unit which isn't going to happen unless of course you get very lucky with spell selection and manage to get them off.

As usual, Gotta go with jimmy hear. Both have different roles IMO.