Must I run a Gutstar?

Is running a gutstar the only way to play ogres? And are my ogre bulls now completely worthless? My lists keep failing to make impact in the semi competitive environment of my local game store and is it because I keep denying this?

I currently have the battalion and a slaughtermaster, should I just leave my bulls at home? If not what do I need to add when approaching 1500pts to make this more successful?

Well.. bulls are still good for one thing... use them to convert Man eaters : )

The gut star is a central part of most common lists.

For other types of lists not so dependent on the big block of ironguts:

-shooty lists. Maybe you need the magic banner for Ld9.

-character builds. Load up a unit of bulls with tyrant, SM with lore of beast, BSB, butcher and go to war. here the ironguts wont make a difference as the characters are in front. Go for bulls for more ranks and wounds : ) But very difficult in 1500 pt. You can get the SM, BSB and butcher only but thats okay still : )

- MSU type lists. Im not expert here but other around here are great!

- MSU type lists. Im not expert here but other around here are great!

Definitely. I am currently running an MSU - style list and it has a very strong record. The more I've played with it the better I've become at using it and I built that list to specifically counter the vision of Ogres being synonymous with the giant unit of ironguts.

It's main weakness at 2000 is its average leadership - a bad set of LD tests can really set me back.

Could I get an example of an MSU list? Doesnt have to be exact just what numbers are good to bring.

Also thank you to both of you for your responses.

SM - lvl 4 Maw, Armour of Dest, Crown of Command, IF

Firebelly - lvl 2, D Scroll, GW

5x4 Bulls - XHW, Bellower

2x1 Sabres

2x3 MFC with Heavy Armor and IF and a Bellower each

4 Maneaters - XHW, Bellower, Stubborn, Vanguard

4 Maneaters - XHW, Bellower, Captain, Poison, Swiftstride

Ironblaster

Ironblaster

Put the SM in the Maneater unit without stubborn and play like a Wood Elf. Only take charges you know you can, flee from others, and combocharge with everything. Bellowers will help you rally. Whole list comes to 2500 even.

No BSB? Im skeptic to that especially with the low ld even inside the bubble. You will need to rally some troops and panic tests will hurt.

How do you handle opponent armor saves? Besides the IB, there is nothing above S5

Eh, Gutstars are prone to suffering from the Purple Sun, and some other armies have their own deathstars that give it a challenge. I've done pretty well with buffed basic blocks to be honest, and shooty lists can be very potent.

Depends on your meta too, to be honest. Competitive can equal a lot of different things.

my meta involves not many fantasy players, mostly elves which i dont have to many problems with, warriors of chaos and skaven give me huge problems.

Definitely not.

My tournament list doesn't include any ironguts, and I win roughly 3/4 of my games with it.  Ironically, my easiest games with it are against other ogres who DO run gutstars.  To date, I have lost only twice when playing other ogres.

For core, I usually run two units of 9 Bulls with full command, ironfists, and a LoG.  These are supported by (traditionally) a Gut SM, BSB with SoD, and a Beast Butcher.  The rest varies alot, though my preferred all-comers list includes 6-8 maneaters, 4-6 leadbelchers, 'tusks and a pair of ironblasters. 

The trick is to properly soften targets and pick your charges.  Too many ogre players just race across the board, trying for a turn 2 charge.  I almost never charge till turn 3, and almost never charge just a single unit into a single target.  More units lets you set up more ideal charges, and makes supporting charges easier (or even possible, since gutstars are typically one-unit-wonders). 

Plus the buffing spells of Maw and Beast work wonders on Bulls, but seem to have a weaker effect on IGs.  About the only time I ever include Ironguts is when I expect to face heavy cavalry or regenerating units.  Then I field a small unit of 6 with musician and standard with the flaming banner.

IGs are horribly over-priced for what they do for you.  So I run Bulls.  If I need more capability, then I go for maneaters, who are eminiently superior to IGs.

Nihmwit more or less said what I was going to with a slightly different bend than I was:

Bulls can work great, they need more buffs to be nearly as effective in combat as Ironguts and their leadership somewhat forces your builds a particular direction, but they can do things that Ironguts can't, which is to say, not swing last and parry.


They do work a bit better than Ironguts with a Thundertusk backer and you will get more models on the board.

but...
http://i.imgur.com/c7NJRa2.gif

Yeah... I love my Thundertusk, and it does amazing things when parked neared some Bulls or Maneaters, but the poor beast is war-machine-bait.  That being said, against armies that don't pack that many WMs, like Beastmen or WoC, they can be priceless.

In answer to your topic's question, simply put..... no. You don't HAVE to run a Gutstar.

I have NEVER run a Gutstar in a competitice environment and never will based on my own personal opinion that they are a cheap and lame way to play. I run 2 units for core both around 7-8 strong one of Ogres and the other Ironguts and My Ogre's have yet to lose a battle in some time. Other units in the army include 4x MFC w. standard gear, 6 ME's, poison snipe or scouts usually, leaddies, an Ironblaster or two. SM, BSB and FB plus the obligatory stusks. You don't NEED a Gutstar to win, it's just appears to be the most popular way of doing it.

I find with ya basic Ogre it's all about picking your fights where as with enough Ironguts you can just throw them into pretty much anything willy nilly knowing that your abundance of wounds and S6 will eventually beat whatever their target happens to be. Gutstars (to me at least) tend to be very point and click which is pretty boring and doesn't require much brain power to work with. Personally I also prefer the variety a unit of Ogres adds to the army. There are plenty of other gamers however who swear by Ogre's and don't use Ironguts at all so it's really personal preference or opinion.

On a side note. Try running a Maneater star unit.... it's well funny! 18 Scouting ME's in your opponents face from the start of the game. Did this once to see the reaction, people weren't best pleased!

In answer to your topic's question, simply put..... no. You don't HAVE to run a Gutstar.

I have NEVER run a Gutstar in a competitice environment and never will based on my own personal opinion that they are a cheap and lame way to play. I run 2 units for core both around 7-8 strong one of Ogres and the other Ironguts and My Ogre's have yet to lose a battle in some time. Other units in the army include 4x MFC w. standard gear, 6 ME's, poison snipe or scouts usually, leaddies, an Ironblaster or two. SM, BSB and FB plus the obligatory stusks. You don't NEED a Gutstar to win, it's just appears to be the most popular way of doing it.

I find with ya basic Ogre it's all about picking your fights where as with enough Ironguts you can just throw them into pretty much anything willy nilly knowing that your abundance of wounds and S6 will eventually beat whatever their target happens to be. Gutstars (to me at least) tend to be very point and click which is pretty boring and doesn't require much brain power to work with. Personally I also prefer the variety a unit of Ogres adds to the army. There are plenty of other gamers however who swear by Ogre's and don't use Ironguts at all so it's really personal preference or opinion.

On a side note. Try running a Maneater star unit.... it's well funny! 18 Scouting ME's in your opponents face from the start of the game. Did this once to see the reaction, people weren't best pleased!

Maybe we are not really clear to what an gutstar is...

Is it a horde of ironguts with characters or is it just a term for a unit of ironguts with the also mandatory characters (SM, BSB, support mage). I tend to use the latter term in the discussion.

as an example, I use 8-9, maybe 10 ironguts in a unit with my BSB and SM and the above support mage but he could also be sitting in my support unit of bulls/leadies/ME. That to me is a 'star'. Because, frankly, it doesnt seems to divert much from your above list (details may vary : )

What constitutes a Deathstar is relative to the point level.

A unit of 12 Ironguts might be a Gutstar at 1500 points, but it would just be a medium sized unit at 2500.

At 2500, you'd need at least 18 Ironguts to qualify as a Gutstar IMO.

Could I get an example of an MSU list? Doesnt have to be exact just what numbers are good to bring.

Also thank you to both of you for your responses.

Sorry bit late to this but mine goes a bit like:
Firebelly

Firebelly

BSB

4 units of 10x Gnoblars

2 units of 5x Irontguts with command

2 units of 5x Leadbelchers with bellower

3 single sabretusks

3x maneaters with dual pistols and flaming banner, poison, stubborn

Ironblaster

Thats at 2000 points

Thats not including magic items - but generally i'd run the BSB with one of the leadbelcher units, firebellies in the two iron gut units.

I also use the firebellies as chaffe - I run them out of their irontguts units, burn their breath weapon - then pop hellheart if they have as they serve as backup redirectors. And compared to any other wizards they can really pull their weight!

Basically standard MSU tactics. - Screen with gnoblars and redirect with sabres while you get a few turns of shooting in, then combo charge with the ogre units.

Its really fun to play with I find. I came up with it when i decided i didn't want to run a really big unit of bulls/ironguts and i didn't want to run double iron blasters or a slaughtermaster (just some arbitrary restrictions i set myself to get me thinking creatively!).

Hope that helps! I find this is a really fun list to play with

The definition of a gutstar varies. Personally I take a broader definition. Any ogre unit with more than one character tends to get called a gutstar.

I for one have always tended to run a "bullstar" rather than a gutstar. If the characters are going to be taking the brunt of the combat duty, it doesn't really matter that much to me if the unit is made up of bulls or ironguts and bulls are considerably cheaper. Only really that magic banner slot really sets the 'guts ahead but with a tyrant for Ld9 and possibly a magic banner on my BSB that isn't necessary.

Personally I consider the gutstar build to mean a large single unit of Ironguts that use all, or at least the gross majority, of your minimum core points allotment. Then add an assortment of characters including General, BSB and whatever else you choose. It has it's pros and cons like so much of the army book, but it is not required.

Personally I consider the gutstar build to mean a large single unit of Ironguts that use all, or at least the gross majority, of your minimum core points allotment. Then add an assortment of characters including General, BSB and whatever else you choose. It has it's pros and cons like so much of the army book, but it is not required.

This has always been my definition too.  Not necessarily a horde, but if your entire core (or the vast majority of it) is tied up in a single unit of Ironguts, it's a Gutstar.