Tyrant + Double Firebelly builds

Hello fellow Tyrants!

I am attempting to create a new list for myself, which strays away from my usual Mawmaster, Butcher, BSB set-up. I settled on getting back to my Tyrant (who's been gathering dust for a year or so) and to finally get my hands dirty and take some Firebellies, after hearing so many nice things about them online.

Now, how do your experiences with Tyrant + Double Belly lists go? How do you find them compared to Maw SM + Butcher builds? Do you also take a BSB, even though that's a lot of points to sink into characters?

I play 2000pt games, and given the increased cost of Tyrant, 2x Belly and BSB, compared to my usual SM build, I've been shying away from it.

Convince me! I'm hoping to figure out the best way of running this build, so I can get out of my comfort zone and enjoy some more diverse options- I just need to know I can find a good way of making it work.

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First thoughts were:
Tyrant + 100pts equipment + Heavy Armour
Firebelly (Lvl 2) Dispel Scroll
Firebelly (Lvl 2)
BSB, maybe with an Ironfist if I have points.

= 780pts.

Seems like a lot compared to the 610 I have for level 4 SM + CoC, level 2 Butcher (d.scroll), BSB.

Would it make more (maw? ) sense to just take one Firebelly? Or maybe just take two level 1 FBs?

Needs a Hellheart if you ask me. The idea is that Ogre magic items let you make up the magic defense gap that is present by only having a +2 to dispel as opposed to +4. The idea here is that it lets you go MMU with 2 units of Ironguts and your choice of a third threat unit (Mournfangs or Maneaters, most likely). All of my experience with this build is at 2500 points, though.

One thing you could consider at that points value is not taking a BSB. I know it's considered heresy for ogres, but a tyrant in a block  of IGs with the discipline standard will radiate Ld 10, which is really equivalent to Ld 8 with a reroll (SM with a BSB).The odds of success are about 92% either way. Ofc a SM with disc. and a BSB will be better (around 97%), but if youre looking to save points, this isn't a terrible risk. I have run a Bsb-less tyrant like this with a butcher and a 'belly with some success at 2k, and even just a tyrant and butcher at 1k to 1.5k. I agree big magic opposition is your main issue though.

I could never not take a BSB, I once played with a friend's Lizardmen force and demonstrated why. Poor Temple Guard.


Anyway, a Hellheart would definitely help, mainly to deny your opponent a crucial magic phase so that you could swing things in your favour. Also, consider just how you'd load out your Tyrant - I tend to not bother with armour and generally leave him with a 4+ ward of some kind, on the basis that anything wanting to have a go at him will be hitting him hard enough for his piddly save not to matter, or to be watered down quite a bit. Just an opinion though.

The main point of a magicless army is to try and make up for it with lots of damage dealing. It's possible that maybe one Firebelly might be enough here, since the second one might not add a tremendous amount - you can get three Ironguts or four bulls for a similar price, so it depends on what you feel is worth it. More spells definitely helps, mind.

At 2k though, Ogres do struggle for good character balance I find. I usually run a Mawmaster, BSB, and Butcher/Firebelly setup, mainly as a Tyrant I find sometimes compromises the list at this level.

Your going to hear varying opinions from person to person about this build. From my experience it felt gimped. I must divulge that as with most metas there is a lot of WoC armies right now and they hurt this build a lot as they just out fight most of what we have. As mentioned previously to make up for no magic your suppose to get more killing power. Unfortunately, with a tyrant build you spend more in characters and thus have less bodies with no real increased combat power.

Other than fluff and flavor there is no justification for taking a tyrant over the slaughtermaster.

Well currently my meta is a small gaming group with five other armies in:
High Elves,
Skaven,
Tomb Kings,
Lizardmen,
Dwarves.

In all of those match-ups I can imagine getting more out of a Mawmaster & Butcher set-up than I can with Fire spells. Gut buffs are just so good that they can dramatically tip combats that would be close, into one-sided slap-downs.

I keep wanting to try something new, but the other options just seem so much less competitive. Using Firebelly breathe weapons (in the shooting phase for optimal results) definitely appealed to me as a new trick, and most of my opponents are playing armies that a large template like that would do a lot of damage. I briefly considered a Firebelly on an Arabyan Carpet for some kind of shenanigans, but didn't really take it seriously, as it looks like a one trick pony.

I agree on the Tyrant being less useful generally. The only way I can justify taking him is an attempt to make my list less competitive. My last three games in the group were all massacres (though it felt like they could have swung either way at times) so I thought about trying something new, so I wouldn't annoy people... although I still want to play competitively, just not in a WAAC way.

Anyway, I digress: I want to run the Thundermace for fun, as, again, there are a lot of T3 armies with large units for him to simply decimate.

I don't feel good about the 33% miss-rate on it > which makes me want to take a Dragonhide banner > which raises the cost of my characters some more or replaces the Standard of Dicipline/ Banner of Eternal Flame > which puts me so far out of my comfort zone I think I pee'd a little 

The Thundermace was fun back when it didn't cost the earth and actually had a good strength, but at the moment it's pretty darn weak actually, particularly in challenges.

Generally, I look at a Tyrant like this:

Reasons you want to take him:
Cool Factor
Challenges
High Leadership

In comparison to a Slaughtermaster:
Cool Factor
Level 4 Magic
Can still fight competently



So it's really far too close. So, you have to really put that guy to work to get your 200+ points worth.


You need some serious killing power on him, for one. A Sword of Striking and Giantbreaker will set you back a measly 40 points, giving you 60 left for defensive purposes. Dragonhelm and Talisman of Preservation, as well as Heavy armour and Ironfist, now gives you a good ward, 3+ armour, and anti-flaming. You also have 5 points left over - a potion of Speed would be good here if you're anticipating challenges, but there's also the Rock Eye for pesky Assassins/Fanatics.

That's just one example of a Tyrant Build, but this one covers three areas I feel are important:
1. Durable - not likely to die soon.
2. Good Character killing power - lot of attacks at a high strength, can take hits, so should do relatively well.
3. Good rank and file killer - can generate 4+ combat res relatively easily, I think.

The only thing is, he doesn't support the army possibly as well as he could. A Crown of Command would be useful, but you'd have to ditch some things. You could get away with a great weapon, Crown of Command, 4+ward talisman, and have 20 points to spend on other odds and ends.


TL; DR: Generally, the whole crux of what I'm saying (apologies for digressing) is that you have to be taking a Tyrant for a reason. If your meta is relatively competitive, then the Cool Factor becomes risky, so you have to begin to balance it out with some careful equipment choices.

Agreed - a Tyrant can earn his keep, he just needs to be kitted out carefully. If he pumps out +4 or so CR reliably and can provide a bit of support to the unit that he's in, then he'll be a pretty good asset. Ld9 + Standard of Discipline in his unit is plenty helpful, and the suggestion of Sword of Striking + Giantbreaker is also a good idea.

I think the list is fine.  I've done it and it worked.  This is what I would run.

Tyrant: HA, Ench Shld, Sword of Striking, Giant Breaker       260

Firebelly: Lvl 2, dispell scroll, AHW                                        182

Bruiser BSB: HA, IF, Dragonhide Banner                               188

Bulls 10: Shields, Command, LoG                                         355

Ironguts 11: Command,  LoG                                               508

Kitty x3                                                                               63

Leadbelchers 6: Bellower                                                      268

Ironblaster                                                                          170

Total........1994  (buy a 5 point item)

Put your tyrant with the Iguts, put your bsb and fb with the bulls.
In a perfect scenario, you could hit your enemy with the bulls and use the dragonhide banner breath weapon, give them ASL, and give your bulls Flaming sword of ruin and swing before you get hit.  But even in less than perfect environments, it is still a good setup because the bulls have a bruiser and 2 breath weapons to support them and the tyrant with IGs will pound anything that moves.

Other than that, use cats to redirect, shoot big stuff with the blaster, and pepper up scary blocks with the leadbelchers.  At 2k i think that 2 firbellys is overdoing it.  1 is enough to survive the enemies magic and you have enough killing power to drop them in combat.

I love dual firebellies! I've had great success with them. Blasting chaff away to clear the way for the boys is grand.

If you're going to do it you NEED both a Hellheart and a Dispel Scroll to help defend against those lvl 4 wizards. I like sticking my Hellheart Firebelly in a unit of Bulls or Guts, someone I know will be charging forward to get close to the enemy and popping it at an opportune time. The Dispel scroll can stay further back, maybe in a unit of Leadbelchers. 7 Leadbelchers and a Firebelly can put out a whole lot of pain at a distance.

It's a pretty straightforward magic phase oftentimes, blasting at the enemy toys and chaff but you've also got access to the magic weapons spell which is great, and will help against ethereals (I have a regular vampire opponent who fears the Firebellies.)

Another important part of this sort of list is properly kitting out your Tyrant. And also being willing to throw him under the bus... Charging him out of his unit if things are dire, or moving to block a charge. He's a tough bugger and can take a lot and its worth it to keep one of your blocks in fighting shape.


I'm going to add this topic to the Tactica. I've wanted someone to tackle this discussion for some time, and I'm happy to see it! There's also a very good thread about Tyrant builds you should look at: http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=26514.msg350048#msg350048

I have been tinkering with a list with a Firebelly as the only character.  Clearing that many points out of characters can allow for a whole lotta bellies to push the enemy back.  The idea would be a fairly heavy shooting list with a block of 18 Ironguts. Think it could work?

I've seen such strategies work for both Lizardmen (old book) and Dark Elves. The Lizardmen used only a Slann as both General and BSB. Dark Elves got two Couldron of Blood as General and BSB.

Ben Curry spoke about that topic on one of his shows in Bad Dice.

If you're going to do it you NEED both a Hellheart and a Dispel Scroll to help defend against those lvl 4 wizards. I like sticking my Hellheart Firebelly in a unit of Bulls or Guts, someone I know will be charging forward to get close to the enemy and popping it at an opportune time. The Dispel scroll can stay further back, maybe in a unit of Leadbelchers.

That's pretty much exactly what I thought when I started thinking through my options; I think that getting in your opponents face, fast is going to be the best way to use this kind of build, and you also have the option of marching and sticking yourself right up against them - just a couple of inches away - and letting fly with both the Hellheart and Breath Weapons. The idea of using Breath Weapons in the shooting phase is much moe interesting to me than using them in combat, as the average number of hits should double at least, against many typical units (i.e. not cavalry).

On a separate note, do you run a BSB in your Tyrant + 2x Firebelly build? Also, what sort of points do you play at Moniker? Just trying to build up an understanding of how/ when/ where these kind of lists are the most effective. I can't seem to convince myself to drop my BSB but I dislike having 800+ points invested in my characters, as I find it's particularly hard to fit enough Ogres in as it is!

7 Leadbelchers and a Firebelly can put out a whole lot of pain at a distance.

I was actually looking at my 7 Leadbelchers yesterday wondering what kind of unit has such odd numbers... You've just given me a valid reason to use them all at once- I like the sound of a unit like this

It's a pretty straightforward magic phase oftentimes, blasting at the enemy toys and chaff but you've also got access to the magic weapons spell which is great, and will help against ethereals (I have a regular vampire opponent who fears the Firebellies.)

One thing I was worried about was that it would be a bit too simple... In that, especially if you're running up into their face, you'll get one, maybe two turns of throwing Fireballs around before you're in combat. How do you feel the rest of the Lore of Fire fits into this kind of game plan? It's also the reason I've been staying away from two level 1 Firebellies, as I would want a higher chance of getting Flaming Sword and Cascading Firecloak, but that raises the points considerably. Also, a lot of the other spells seem weak to my inexperienced eyes, so I'm beginning to look at Firebellies as Fireball & Breath Weapon couriers, and little else.

Another important part of this sort of list is properly kitting out your Tyrant. And also being willing to throw him under the bus... Charging him out of his unit if things are dire, or moving to block a charge. He's a tough bugger and can take a lot and its worth it to keep one of your blocks in fighting shape.

Interesting tactic. With something like the Crown of Command, and the BSB nearby, that could be a very funny way to annoy your opponent, and not something I would really have considered doing unless I was desperate... It's a shame that having a good defence and a good offence seem to be mutually exclusive for Tyrants unless you take Fencer's Blades :/

I have been tinkering with a list with a Firebelly as the only character.  Clearing that many points out of characters can allow for a whole lotta bellies to push the enemy back.  The idea would be a fairly heavy shooting list with a block of 18 Ironguts. Think it could work?

I think it would suffer the same problems and have the same successes as any other army that sinks it's hopes into one big basket. Just hope no one pulls off a Purple Sun or Dweller's from Bellow and you're laughing.

Oh and make sure you stay clear of panic tests too- at Ld.7 (or 8 with the Std. of Discipline on your Guts) you'll be running away from any Screaming Skull Catapult kill, any Sabretusk/ unit of Leadbelchers within 6" that gets destroyed and any Braingobbler that gets through.

Leadership tests will also cripple you (Death Magic, Curse of Da Bad Moon etc.) This includes anything that causes Terror, as it will make you hit it on 5s, which will severely reduce your damage output and could see you getting routed in an unlucky round of combat.

EDIT: Oh, and you won't have any way to reduce the damage you take back; I find that one of the consistently most effective methods of reducing CR for your opponent is to have a couple of characters + champion at the front of your unit. Having the enemy hit toughness 5 instead of 4 will do a lot to swing things in your favour- even more so if you can Gut Buff them for toughness 6. Knowing the enemy will be hitting my regular joes at toughness 4 does nothing for my confidence when it comes to fighting with Ogres... I've seen to many Chariots, Templeguard w/ Halberds, Cavalry w/ Lances, White Lions and Swordmasters to think much of T4 in protracted combats

I always take a Bruiser BSB. It does run the characters cost a little high, but he's too useful to give up. I tend to run him cheap, with just armour and Ironfist and maybe the Dragonhelm for a 3+ AS. He's pretty tough and can take plenty of beating with that. He hangs out in the Tyrants unit which tends to be 4-wide in my lists. In combat he and they tyrant push forward so my enemy has to designate hits between champ, tyrant, bruiser and rank and file. It really frustrates them.

As for the Lore of Fire, it's rather more dynamic then most people realize.
-Flaming sword, as I mentioned, is a very handy spell and helps out Ogres when we're fighting other armies elite units, especially if you favour Bulls over Ironguts.
-Cascading Fire Cloak can be used offensively or defensively. Smaller units won't want to get stuck in when they'll be taking extra hits in the magic phase.
-Fulminating Flame Cage is really interesting as it allows quite a bit of battlefield control, especially against large units of T3 infantry.
I'm not too fond of the Burning Head spell usually, but Piercing Bolts of Burning is super handy if you fight armies that bring buses like Skaven, Vampires or Goblins.

Hope this helps!

That's basically how I've been feeling about him; plus it doesn't help that I just converted one from an metal hunter, and am quite proud of it, so I want to take him and show him off now

Fulminating Flame Cage looks as though it has a lot of potential; I keep getting images of leaving a flank open to an enemy charge, then having them make the decision to break the Flame Cage and lose half their T3 models before they complete the charge