Ogre Almanac - Ogre Variants (2006)

Sorry for the 'no topic' last week, grad school is eating me alive...

Anyways this week: not all ogres are created equal... some have a few extra arms and heads!  Of course I'm talking about our cousins up north, the Chaos ogres.  What makes a chaos ogre not like us regular guts?  Why can't you use gut magic on them?  Why have they forsaken the traditional ogre charge?  How are they different physically and culturally (religiously? linguistically?) from a 'normal' ogre?  What are some common mutations (a good place to show off modded models and artistic ability in the final product).

Also, our cold cousins to the north: the yhetee!  Same sort of questions: biology and culture in a nutshell of the distant kin at the top of the mountain!

Dig in!

The way I see it, chaos ogres are very similar to mercenary/maneater ogres down south. the differences being that they have been mutated due to proximity to the chaos gate (as most things ae) and whilst there aren't a lot of empire burgomeisters looking to hire ogres up in troll country and beyond, there's plenty of chaos warbands to fight with/for.

I (myself) have a theory (yes,a theory) of that the Yheetes are mutated by the Chaos to. They wen´t far upp north, right?.

Ogres are perhaps the single easiest influenced race in the Warhammer World. Already after spending a short time with other cultures, they adopt some of their cultural traits, and I'd imagine that any ogre who lived long enough with another race would adopt their cultural traits entirely.
For example, an ogre who has (for some reason) lived in the Empire almost all of his life might begin worshipping Ulric or Sigmar rather than the Maw.

Now, chaos. The ruinious powers.
I couldn't imagine that the average ogre would willingly give their body and soul to chaos (perhaps to Khorne, but none of the other gods). However, ogres are as said easily influenced, and the powers of chaos are probably the most influentive power in the world. Thus ogres that are exposed to chaos power are subdued by it, whether they will it or not. 'Course, some particulary nasty ogres might give their soul to chaos to gain the strenght and power to vanquish an enemy tyrant.
Also, ogres worship the Maw out of fear and awe and I could easily imagine them turning to another diety who inspired fear and awe. Dieties such as the chaos gods.

Concerning mutations, I see ogres as rather resistant to them compared to humans. To begin with the taint of chaos might show itself as small subtle changes: changing eye colours, different skin tone etc. After some time extra limps, eyes, small tentacles and the like could appear and only after heavy exposure to chaos power, they'd mutate further.
In short, everything is possible with an ogre, but they're significantly more resistant than humans.

Cheears, Meatfist

My chaos ogres are cyclopes. The reason why that've lost the bull charge is that their mouths are whare the gut-plates should be. I guess similar mutations could be a common reason why they don't have bull charge. (Or perhaps they'll get it with the new chaos book, who knows?)

 - Kyte

Right, the Yhetees. Here's my view on them:
Towards the end of the Old Ones stay on the Warhammer World, the forerunners of the Ogre race were created. The Old Ones' goal was to create a race resistant to magic, and they carefully monitored the genes of the Ogre tribes, gradually improving their resistance. This genetic manipulation was a specified and speeded-up version of natural selection, and as such, there were throwbacks, misfits that did not develop the magical resistance that was gradually bred into the Ogres. In the beginning, these misfits outnumbered the fledgling Ogre race, but gradually, that began to change. Side effects of the increased magical resistance was increased tolerance of more physical hardships, savage belligerence and gluttony. As the Ogres developed these latter traits ever more strongly, the Old Ones gave up on their experiment, deeming it a failiure. However, one remained, the Old One who had begun the experiment. He remained to observe, hoping that the Ogre race would redeem itself. However, his hope went unfulfilled, and finally died in a colossal act of violence.

The Ogres had long ago separated from their primitive forebears, whose numbers had dwindled as the Ogres gradually supplanted them. However, a few clans of these beings remained in the plains north of Cathay, leading a basic hunter-gatherer life. They were peaceful compared to the Ogres and unobtrusive. However, that wasn't enough for the Ogres. One particualarly brutish Tyrant named Golgafal desired to expand his hunting grounds, but dared not assault the lands of his more powerful neighbours. Unluckily for them, the primitive Ogres shared a border with Golgafal's tribe, and the Tyrant, seeing weakness in his peaceful neighbours, invaded their lands. Although the primitives fought hard, they were simply outmatched by the tougher Ogres, and were destroyed. The other Ogre tribes saw this as an opportunity to expand their territory, and suddenly, mass conflicts broke out, as Ogres invaded the lands of the primitives. In the genocidal massacres and feasting that followed, the Ogres almost annihilated the primitives. Only small groups of refugees remained, fleeing for safety towards the mountains, led by a mysterious figure who spoke in their dreams.

This was the remaining Old One. Horrified at the actions of his experiments, he determined to save their forebears, who were untainted by the Old Ones' meddling. He led them into the Mountains of Mourn, and they followed him, through the Giantlands, and into the unclaimed peaks of the western mountains. There he resolved to meddle one last time. Using his magic, the Old One wove a spiritual bond between the primitives and the mountains, christening them Yhetees as he did so. This bond would keep the Yhetees alive, and bestow longer life onto them. The Old One lived among his Yhetees for a while maintaining the bond, and teaching others to do the same. He taught the Yhetees how to manipulate the raw power of their environment, and ice began to flow in their veins. He also monitored the Yhetee DNA, altering it until it produced the mutations he looked for: longer limbs and hooked claws with which to scale cliffs and move at speed through obstacles, a coat of fur, white in winter, brown in summer, to camoflauge them (the Yhetees, through their manipulation of the cold, needed no insulation), and heightened senses of smell and hearing. However, eventually the Old One left the Yhetees, fleeing with his brethren from the world.

The Yhetees were untouched by occurences in the outside world. Gradually, a mirror of the old clan system emerged, with Ice Priests, those masters of Ice Magic taught by the Old One, acting as an autonomous power that owed no loyalty to any chieftain. From the teachings of the Old Ones, the Yhetees learnt how to manipulate the temperature around them, in order to remain cool in hotter climbs. They also learnt how to fashion weapons from their breath, and out of this, formed the skull raids. Young bands of Yhetees, armed with their Ice weapons, began raiding south in order to kill more challenging beasts. This quickly developed into a adulthood ritual, and gained other connotations, such as the more impressive the skull brought back, the more welcome the returning Yhetee would be with members of the opposite sex. Like many tribal societies, the social ladder sprung up with the females on the bottom (adults being higher up than children), designated preparers of food and procreators, then the males hunters and warriors, and above them, the Greyback elders and above them, the ruling chieftains. Finally outside this were the Ice Priests.

The most recent and momentous occurrence in the history of the Yhetees came, when the Ogres occupied the lowlands. The Yhetees encountered their cousins when a party of young males on a skull raid came across a party of Ogres and attacked them, believing them to be the daemons of Yhetee myth, which the Ogres had become. The Ogres drove the raiders off, at great cost, though the Yhetees took several heads before retreating back to the peaks. The raiders told their chieftains of the daemons, and the surviving Ogres reported to their Tyrant. Both organised an army, and went to meet. The battle was long and hard, as the Yhetees were faster and protected by their Ice Magic whereas the Ogres were better equipped. For a day the battle raged until the two leaders met in single combat on the field. In an epic battle, that goes down in Ogre legend, neither proved the victor. The respect however that was formed on that day, gave the respected leaders a foundation for a truce, friendship, and finally, alliance. Many Ogres followed this example, in order to avoid more casualties from the skull raids, especially after the deaths in the battles with the Sky Titans.

The overall pact with the Yhetees promised that neither race would seek to attack or dominate the other. In exchange, the Ogres would protect the Yhetees from outsiders, and the Yhetee skull raiders would aid the Ogres in their wars. An agreement was born, and although occasionally conflicts do arise, largely the two races are now at peace with one another.

I think chaos ogres exist because they've given up worship of the Maw. The massive gut is a gift, it's the Maw's mark. When an ogre forsakes the Maw and instead chooses worship of the Dark Powers, the thing that makes him an ogre (for truly chaos ogres are ogres in name only, similar to a rat ogre)  dwindles and eventually disappears. This is why chaos ogres are so skinny compared to natural ogres.

In response to the yhetee origins, Ghworg has some good ideas with the Old Ones, I just can't see yhetees as having any sort of structure. The yhetees I imagine sit in their cold, frozen caves exactly like the beasts they are and are tamed and brought into battle similar to rhinoxen or any other animal. Though I do vaguely remember a line about horns being blown and calling them down, if that is the case, disregard this whole passage.

As far as I know the Old Ones are always referred to as a group and none have ever done something on their own. I also don't believe I've ever heard of an Old One walking amongst his creations, or even if they have physical forms. I always thought they were more like gods.

I could be mistaken though, as I haven't got the Lizardmen book which is probably the most important one on this subject.

I'm pretty sure the Old Ones are simply very early Eldar. And I still see yhetees as being to animalistic to have any sort of tribal structure, much less armies or Ice Priests.

I'm pretty sure the Old Ones are simply very early Eldar. And I still see yhetees as being to animalistic to have any sort of tribal structure, much less armies or Ice Priests.

... Eldar as in 40k? It could be argued, but GW officially servered the bond between 40k and Fantasy years ago. All that is known of the Old Ones is that they were an interstellar race of great intellect that wielded unfathomable power. They were manifested physically, "walked between their creations" and although they worked as a group, they were also individuals. I can't remember reading how many there actually were, but 8 or 9 are mentioned in the lizardmen army book which also has one or two magic items that once belonged to one of the Old Ones.

Cheers, Meatfist

I just can't see yhetees as having any sort of structure. The yhetees I imagine sit in their cold, frozen caves exactly like the beasts they are and are tamed and brought into battle similar to rhinoxen or any other animal. Though I do vaguely remember a line about horns being blown and calling them down, if that is the case, disregard this whole passage.

Yeah, I think there is a line in their GW fluff about being called to war by a horn of some sort.

I also don't believe I've ever heard of an Old One walking amongst his creations, or even if they have physical forms. I always thought they were more like gods.

Well, its just an idea. The description of the Old One looking after the Yhetees could be easily adapted if the Old Ones dont have a physical form. It just seems to me that the Old Ones, seeing as they have enough power to meddle on the physical plane as much as they did, would be able to create physical forms for themselves.

And I still see yhetees as being to animalistic to have any sort of tribal structure, much less armies or Ice Priests.

My Yhetee idea focused around them living a sub-tribal existence, something like that of ancient neanderthals. The Yhetees wouldn't have warriors as such, just hunters. The only sort of thing the Yhetees do that even remotely resembles a military operation is the Skull Raid, which I think fits their primitive, savage character.
About the Ice Priests, that is open for discussion. However, I would suspect there is a sort of Yhetee Druidic order that teaches young Yhetees the rudiments of how to manipulate the power of their element, and maybe acts as a body of wandering storytellers. Remember that Yhetees are never ever described as animals. They are distant cousins of Ogres, which in my book, designates them as a higher form of life than animals.

That sounds possible. I mean, Gorgers have structure, Snotlings have structure, why not Yhetees? They're certainly more intelligent than some other things that can organize themselves into "tribes".

Gorgers have structure? Wandering around in the pitch black caves eating things? I see yhetee structure as entirely animalistic, like wolves. One leads his pack, the greyback, on hunts and such.

Gorgers have structure?!  I agree with Reg, I thought they just tore each other apart in the darkness...

As for yhetees I imagine them being not quite tribal, more like primates.  Very basic social structure but very animalistic and primal.

Gorgers have structure

Even I might have to disagree with u here. Gorgers are basically mouths on legs, and that sort of temperament only works in societies of one.

I see yhetee structure as entirely animalistic, like wolves. One leads his pack, the greyback, on hunts and such.

As for yhetees I imagine them being not quite tribal, more like primates.  Very basic social structure but very animalistic and primal.

I still think that people are referring to Yhetees as animals. They are not animals. They may be primitive and basic, but their social structure will have elements in it that there won't be in animal societies. I imagine Yhetee societies as being a step down from Ogre society, so even more basic and savage, but still relatively similar.

Just one thing to get the old noggins working. Why are Yhetee leaders called 'Greybacks'? It seems to me that in an animalistic society, the most capable hunters would be on top. However, the term Greyback seems to infer age and more importantly, a loss of the camoflauge that allows Yhetees to be effective hunters. Deferring to the older members of your society is a common feature in a few early civilisations (Athens for example). So it is plausible that Yhetees have a rudimentary patriarchal society in which the older or 'wiser' people rule over the younger, 'rasher' people.

I think greyback is a link to the silverbacks of the gorillas in the Congo. I might be more inclined to gibe the yhetees any sort of tribal structure more civilised than that of primates or wolves if, and only if, we had some sign that this was such.

I might be more inclined to gibe the yhetees any sort of tribal structure more civilised than that of primates or wolves if, and only if, we had some sign that this was such.

The whole point of this alamanac is to improvise where GW fluff is wholly insufficient, i.e. in determining the social structure of Yhetees. As for me, I just feel it fits better to have Yhetees living a tribal existence, rather than small family groups living in a cave above the snowline, and only coming down to hunt and when called. I feel, maybe we could draw a parallel between Yhetees and Ogres and neanderthals and early man. Yhetees could just be the Ogre neanderthal that adapted when it was supplanted as dominant species.

Well, based on the story about Skrag, it sounds like Gorgers follow other more powerful Gorgers... basically like the leader of a pack of animal like everyone already mentioned. If they had no structure, they'd either gang up on Skrag or leave him alone and find something easier to kill.

Skrag was the only ogre to ever 'lead' gorgers.
I believe they are simply attracted to him because wherever he goes, blood is bound to flow. They know no companionship, only bloodlust.
In the caves, there can't be any hierarchy, it's either eat or be eaten.

As for Yhetees, the name Greyback seems to mean their packs are lead by the oldest (and therefor strongest) member of their pack, the alpha-male. Like a pack of wolves or apes, they hunt together but otherwise do not perform many activities.
When the ogres go to war, they sound the great mountain horns. The Yhetees know this sound, it means a great hunt is about to occur. But I imagine they learn to recognise this sound like a dog can be taught to recognise a dinner-bell.
I definately see Yhetees as animals with the intellect of an ape.

Yhetees use and make weapons, which puts them ever so slightly above ape in my mind (apes are tool users yes, but not weapon users in general)... but gorilla-style non-verbal culture is probably a fair model to start from.

I'm of the opinion that Yhetees were either a prototype created by the Old Ones for their Ogre project, or (more likely, imo) a race that existed prior to the Old Ones and was used as the base template for the Ogres.

Chaos Ogres are simply mutated Ogres, like mutated humans. Only Ogres.

Dragon Ogres existed before the Old Ones came onto the scene, so (linking up with the idea of Yhetees being used as part of an Ogre "template") they were probably used as another part of the template.

My original model had yhetees as a close kin of ogres before the maw affected them... sort of a pre-maw influance ogre adapted for high mountain living.  Sound teneble to anyone?

I my oppinion yhetees are either simply an evolved ogre spieces who has adapted themselves to live in the harsh mileu that is the upper peaks of the Mountains of Mourn (kinda like polar bears and normal bears - just more exaggerated) or a completely different spieces.

The first assumption is made stronger by the fact that the Mountains of Mourn, where the ogres live, is the only known place in the Warhammer World that has yhetees as an inhabitant.

But then again... With so little known of those white-haired buggers, it's difficult to say.

Cheers, Meatfist
 

In order to discern the true nature of the Yhetee one cannot look to the "Old Ones," for the spiralling maze of time and history finds records easily distorted, and thusly it would be improper to do so. We can merely speculate upon the origin of the Yhetees in terms of the information specifically given.
   In the fluff provided it is said that "scholars suspect that Yhetees are a remote offshoot of the Ogre species dating back to the first Great Migration." It is also theorised "that the Yhetees owe the Ogres a great debt somewhere in their distant past, even before they evolved into creatures of ice and snow, and hence their habitual reply to the Ogre summons to war is one of ancestral honour rather than any kind of learned response." The first statement tells us that Yhetees are a subgenre of Ogres, while the second implies that they are a seperate race altogether. Later it is said that "a vestige of Ogre-like behaviour remains in the Yhetee's ancestry" to explain their weaponry, a blunt reinforcement of the former theory. Lastly, in the Mountains of Mourn section (14) it is stated that "Only a creature with a supernatural tolerance for the elements can survive in the upper peaks for any length of time, but the Yhetee is a creature born of the mountains in ages past when the Ogre race was young and adaptable." The specific istatement here being that Yhetees originated from Ogres, reaching their current appearance by a series of behavioral, physiological, and environmental adaptations.
   Thusly the official fluff's implications are two to one in favor of Yhetees being a form of Ogre, changed by the Mountains of Mourn, and there is one explicit statement that proclaims the true heritage of the Yhetee. Without this fluff statement, I would suggest that Yhetees are a race entirely seperate from the Ogres, but we cannot ignore what Games Workshop has given us; we must take it into account and formulate a logical conclusion. Existing fluff supports the theory that Yhetee biology originates from Ogre biology, thusly we must assume it to be so and work from there. Games Workshop has told us the final product (Yhetees), the original being (Ogres), and the how ("born of the mountains"; The Mountains of Mourn), but not the why nor the specific process leading up to the final incarnation of Yhetees.

On the subject of Yhetee Cultre, please observe the following excerpt.

The Yhetee packs inhabit the highest slopes of the Mountains of Mourn, ekeing out a sub-tribal existence at the peaks of the mountains.
-Page 34, Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms

Copyright Games Workshop Limited 2004

   The definition of tribal is "of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a tribe." A tribe is "any aggregate of people united by ties of descent from a common ancestor, community of customs and traditions, adherence to the same leaders, etc." Sub is "a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from Latin (subject; subtract; subvert; subsidy); on this model, freely attached to elements of any origin and used with the meaning “under,” “below,” “beneath” (subalpine; substratum), “slightly,” “imperfectly,” “nearly,” “secondary,” “subordinate.”"
   By combining these definitions we ascertain that Yhetee's cultural structure is "slightly under the characteristics of a tribe." Tribal pursuits include rituals, leaders, traditions, and a cooperative stance working toward the end of survival. We scratch some of the more sophisticated such things to achieve the sub-tribal and we end up with leaders and a cooperative stance working toward the end of survival.
   Thusly we can know that Yhetees work together, their specific organization being that of a pack (see the earlier quotation), an avalanche of Yhetees working together under the leadership of one Alpha-Male, a Greyback. There is no fluff to imply any other form of leadership, Shamanistic or otherwise, but we can be certain that a Greyback (being a unit champion) is a prominent figure in and for now, due to lack of mention of any other form of Yhetee leader, the leader of any one avalanche of Yhetees.
   As with other Alpha-Male positions, that of Greyback implies posession of strength above other Yhetees in the group and the benefits that come with it (first choice of mating partner, meat, and a general authority). They name Greyback is the invention of the Ogres, not the Yhetees, and is merely a term originating from the fact that any Alpha-Male will remain in power for a long time. This length of time implies age, thusly the name of Greyback denotes that quality of the position, however Greybacks do not possess any grey fur. Observe the picture of Yhetees in the army book (35), the Greyback (the Yhetee wielding two weapons) posesses no grey fur, he is as white as the Yhetees beside him.
   The remainder of Yhetee society follows the way of such packs, the young are nursed and fed, those too weak to carry on die or are abandoned by the pack, just as those too old to keep up with the pack's demanding speed. They do have permanent settlements, "icicle-encrusted lairs" nestled in the peaks of the Mountains of Mourne.

   As for the calling of the Yhetees by the Ogres, it would seem that Yhetees are not bereft of communication skills, still posessing some of their Ogre heritage. The Horns have come to represent war, or the presence of desirable meat, the meaning having been related to the Yhetees by some intrepid Ogre Hunter or simply by the means of classical conditioning.

Excellent job Mr.Himmler, exactly what we needed. A good, in depth post defining and resolving the issues at hand.

Still, that leaves the "great debt somewhere in their distant past" unexplained, and there is no reason to discard this bit of information while accepting the others, which come from the same source. I propose that when the ogre race was "young and adaptable", soon after the coming of the Maw a great body of early ogres, different from the current being (as often ancestors are, dissimilar from any of it's evolutionary descendents), moved upward in the Mountains of Mourn, and encountered the Sky Titans. They sought help from their lowland cousins in the destruction of the Titans, and in return for this boon agreed to reply to summons of war. Because of the huge transmutory effects of the Maw, and the natural adaptability of ogres, this high evelation ogre quickly evolved into the beasts they are today, and over time both species forgot about the boon owed by the Yhetees to the ogres, and only remembered the horn, and the slaughter.

Interesting idea, but certain areas become off limits if that is done. For example, there is no way an Imperial scholar could adequately research how a pack of Yhetees live.

I don't know, I think it opens up an interesting opportunity for a fantasy Jane Goodall type character (we already have marco columbo afterall!)

I don't know, I think it opens up an interesting opportunity for a fantasy Jane Goodall type character (we already have marco columbo afterall!)
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Up next on PBS: "Walking with Ogres" by the now deseased Murty Stolfer. Join us as we look into the secret lives of these gentle giants.

XD. I always liked the idea of a imperial scientist working on all this really. It gives a fluffy reason why this info is being collected anyways, its not as if an actual ogre cares about gnoblar culture, or why his chaos brethren look different then he does. Technically, Pauncho is our imperial scientist, but the name pauncho is so...ogrish. XD

All I'm saying is that there's no way an Imperial scholar could close enough to Yhetees without being torn apart, and thusly such fluff would have to be eliminated from the Almanac. Specific answers cannot be given, only vague conclusions based upon the scholars limited means.

The Angry fist Tribe
P.57 of the Ogre Kingdom book (Rueben Kyte memoirs)

While the scholarly project sounds cool, it really limits how in depth we can get with this project.

The Angry fist Tribe
P.57 of the Ogre Kingdom book (Rueben Kyte memoirs)

Those are Ogres, not Yhetees.

Those are Ogres, not Yhetees.

If a human acheives a high place amnong an Ogre tribe, he would be able to command enough of a force to study Yhetees.

So far, I'm liking all the theories espoused about the Yhetees, especially the scientific explanation about the Yhetees' powers.

Now I'm thinking we can turn to outside sources of fantasy for a template for Yhetees, and I think I have one: the Trolls in the Tamuli trilogy by David Eddings. These Trolls maintain a sub-human existence in the high mountains, and are notoriously antipathic. By this I mean, they will kill anything that moves that comes into their territory, even their own kind, and are noted cannibals. This could be adapted to the Yhetees as the reason why that they appear more animals than race. Each male Yhetee carves out his own territory among the peaks, and are incredibly defensive of it, more so than even the most territorial animal on Earth. They also fight fiercely over mates (with the prize going to the winner) and make efforts to wipe out the male cubs of their rivals, and steal the female cubs for later mating. To a Yhetee another Yhetee is a threat, nothing more. Except that is, for when the horn is blown. The Yhetees know the sound of the horn states that there is a lot of food up for grabs, and the desire for meat may unite vast waves of Yhetees who then travel to war as an avalanche under those who establish their leadership swiftly, and in the Yhetee fashion, brutally.

Just a thought.

The idea of a scholarly perspective has its ups and downs... the format I am currently working on is not particularly scholarly... or perhaps scholarly to a degree in which we wouldn't expect to find anywhere in the current Warhammer world.  'In game' perspectives, such as from scholars or even laypeople, were going to have a place as sidebars and 'original source material', sort of like the ogre dissection in the army book.  I'm open to changes in format however.

If people are looking for 'naturalistic' explinations for yhetee existance, check out the ice fish... it has what is functionally anti-freeze running through it's veins, it has no hemoglobin at all, and it spends large periods of its larval stage frozen solid... now THAT is cold weather adaptation!  Somehow the image of yhetee spending time frozen in large caves while only a few active members of the avalanche hunt and store enough frozen food in the cave to have an 'awakening' season of mating and child rearing while feasting on the stored goodies.  Perhaps an... awakening... that could be triggered sooner by a well placed sonic-vibratory event like a giant horn?  Hehe just theorizing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze_glycoprotein

The idea of a scholar writing the Almanac has some merit. The trouble with tribes that have an oral history is that it is distorted over time. Even tho this "Scholar" is getting it from the horses mouth it is still only as the Butcher/Tyrant remembers it. Maybe for more insight of tribal activities it might come better from the mouth of a Knoblar. They would have the real skinny on the ogres and probably have much better memories. Of course you would have many other sources to get info from. The great libraried in Cathay for instance.

As to Yettis and gorgers I find them to be of very similar apperance except for the amount of hair. What would happen if a gorger was allowed to bread with another gorger. Would this become a seperate race and would they breed to become yettis. Just a thought. Probably part of the gorgers antisocial behaviour is because he was abandond at birth and so is a little miffed at his folks. If they were nurtured they may be as affiable as the next ogre.

The idea that Chaos Ogres maynot be actual ogres may have merit but I would be inclined to keep them as a sub race as you can be sure when the books are rewritten the rules for them will change so I would be careful about how definitive you go with them. Leave them with Chaos mutations and lack of Maw worship and you can alter there history accordingly (As in a migration north to explain the sudden ability to bull charge)

OK nuff for now how is this almanac going anyway (ps also sorry for my threadcromancing Im just finding my way thru the forums)

The almanac is still going strong, though a bit slower than originally planned to due the awful scheduling nightmare that is my gradschool program... glad to see some renewed interest in the older threads!

Recently while working on my chaos army I read the little fluff blurb about chaos ogres and lo and behold they care about two things only; eating and fighting. It is also theorized in that paragraph that ogres only fight for chaos, that they are not actually chaos beasts. So from that we can deduce chaos ogres are our ogres mutated by chaos due to the time spent around chaos forces, and in the wastes.