Razor standard or Dragonhide on mournfang?

Hey all,

I have done some thinking about how to get the most of my mournfangs.

To set the stage, in my meta-game I rarely have to worry about the hordes of cheap infantry as we saw in early 8th. Now it is more heavy armoured (monstrous) cavalry. So the mournfang's role has in my eyes shifted from the spearmen-eaters to a quite undefined thingy I may or may not bring in my games (2400 pt). I have a hard time finding a good use for them considering their price where I find a second unit of ironguts or scout/sniper-ME are better. Against cavalry you may not get the charge anyway as the MF truely need.

So to get MFs working I have thought of a unit of 5-6 models - they can lose a model to shooting without panicking - they do take up most of the battle line but will now bring the pain I need even with IF and HA.

I have done some math on whether the Dragonhide or Razor standard will be the best for heavy armoured troops and on the straight numbers the razor standard should actually be the best when combat goes into 2nr round. Remember that the Razor std also works on the impact hits.

But will the icy blast of the Dragonhide be better giving the opponent ASL in second round of combat?

I have not yet done any calculations to whether the dragonhide will be better for a unit with greatweapons and then only a 3+ save - But I am sure I cannot afford to loose too many models to shooting.

Does anybody have any experience with this setup of larger Mournfang units?
I would appreciate more input on the theoretical side of things - I'm about to glue up and base coat the last two MFs so I can field them soon and give it a go

Go with the DHB and IF/HA.  For basic worst-case calculations on damage output, you assume you do not get the charge off, calc the damage for the riders and mounts, then double it, then add the damage of the banner.  Since everyone typically hits before ogres, the banner effectively lets you hit twice after only being hit once.  The potential damage goes through the roof if you actually get the charge off yourself.

I go with neither. Mournfang cav are designed to kill the living hell out of S3 T3/4 infantry. They do that brilliantly without a banner. I run them Muso only.

I go with neither. Mournfang cav are designed to kill the living hell out of S3 T3/4 infantry. They do that brilliantly without a banner. I run them Muso only.

This is a good point well made ,dropping the dragonhide banner plus bearer would allow you 24 gnoblars. Providing opportunity for easier flanking with the mournfang etc.

I go with neither. Mournfang cav are designed to kill the living hell out of S3 T3/4 infantry. They do that brilliantly without a banner. I run them Muso only.

This is a good point well made ,dropping the dragonhide banner plus bearer would allow you 24 gnoblars. Providing opportunity for easier flanking with the mournfang etc.

Exactly. Its 290 for 4 with HA, IF and a muso. Cheap as chips.

If your meta is crowded with high armoured foes that can be tricky for Mournfangs then Razor Standard might be worth it, for me it's the defencive part of the dragonhide banner that is hard to let go off.

5 Mournfangs with DHB is insane, points saved on not buying the banner is not better spent elsewhere

I go with neither. Mournfang cav are designed to kill the living hell out of S3 T3/4 infantry. They do that brilliantly without a banner. I run them Muso only.

This is a good point well made ,dropping the dragonhide banner plus bearer would allow you 24 gnoblars. Providing opportunity for easier flanking with the mournfang etc.

Exactly. Its 290 for 4 with HA, IF and a muso. Cheap as chips.

However, would that hold against monsters or heavy cavalry? Not really, this is the unit designed for T3-blending. For that purpose, I agree of this use (although DHB is gravy).

For the purposes of breaking the monstrous cavalry, I'd first of all risk saying to even go GW's with them. That, combined with the Razor Standard, would shred almost all of their armor, and let's face it: they're going to be hitting first anyways. Now, if you don't want to go that route, IFist is perfectly fine, too, and you can still be a hitting force.

6 MFangs with the Razor Standard? It's different, and at this point, what with the 1,000 carbon-copy netlists out there, I approve of anything that's a reimagining of resources.

Do a battle report and let us know how it goes! I'm saying Razor, since you're trying to crack open those armored troops. And, again, it's different than the usual DHB or Gleaming Pendant.

The trick here is to not fight monsters or monstrous cav with Mournfang. Poison stubborn maneaters, iron guts with the DH banner or cannons are much better playmates for monsters and MC.

The trick here is to not fight monsters or monstrous cav with Mournfang. Poison stubborn maneaters, iron guts with the DH banner or cannons are much better playmates for monsters and MC.

As far as I understood, the original post is talking about how to handle the heavily armored troops that are becoming the new norm as 8th ed. books roll out. Obviously, it's better to use MFC against basic T3 troops, but this is a topic discussing the effective use of Razor Standard vs. DHB against the heavily armored infantry choices (or even the other monstrous cavs out there). It's not just a simple "what are MFC good for" topic, there's enough of those out there, and there's very little need to parrot the same information around the forums.

I'm with Tanksi on this. Better off not going with a standard at all. I just run 4 with a muse no other command. It's not with the points and risk. Yes they smash hard and even with those banners it's still a dice game. You roll bad guess what? No standard is going to help. Now if I were to say which banner I would probably say the Razor standard since you get a better bang for the buck. It's always in effect vs the DHB which is a one use only. But I do fine without banners till the dice gods no longer smile on me.

True - the cost of those banners could go towards another Ogre in another unit. The Dragonhide Banner's also only really helpful for grabbing additional Combat Res from T3 dudes and causing the ASL - which is also only useful for protracted combats.

The Razor Standard isn't too bad though, on the basis that no other unit except maybe a BSB with Bulls will really want it (I think the S5 on Maneaters is fine - going against 1-2+ armour saves with them, is normally against Knights where your charge negates their lances and you win the CR anyway, or they charge you and you're dead anyway).

You know your army best, so try out a variety of things. But I do admit, the Dragonhide banner definitely won't help you against the other highly armoured things.

Go with the DHB and IF/HA.  For basic worst-case calculations on damage output, you assume you do not get the charge off, calc the damage for the riders and mounts, then double it, then add the damage of the banner.  Since everyone typically hits before ogres, the banner effectively lets you hit twice after only being hit once.  The potential damage goes through the roof if you actually get the charge off yourself.

Actually doing the math the Razor standard (RS) performs better than the DHB against WS4-6, T3/T4, 1+ AS troops. But this is not considering the ASL for 2nd round of combat, where you will need the MF to survive (ie not getting hit). So in that light you may win first round of combat by the impact hits and the second round of combat by the ASL. Interesting, against some units but I am still afraid of the low S damage.
Adding greatweapons and the 3+ AS makes the unit even more situational in my eyes, where the MF otherwise would/should be a more generic can opener : )

I go with neither. Mournfang cav are designed to kill the living hell out of S3 T3/4 infantry. They do that brilliantly without a banner. I run them Muso only.

Right and as pointed out - this was not my question. That is generic, early 8th wisdom that sadly doesnt hold water in my eyes. If that is what you want then even core bulls would happily do that : )

5 Mournfangs with DHB is insane, points saved on not buying the banner is not better spent elsewhere

Good point. But as above, the math simply puts the RS on top of the DHB for some situations. Is the use of the DHB just an old habit in the Ogre armies? : )
If anything - two big MF units should make it - one with RS and one with the DBH.

To the points on maneaters - some around the forum may recall that I am a dedicated ME user and field them more often than the MF. They perform well in my hands as scouts, support, snipers. But I also know that they are just dying so easily! T4 with a HA 4ppm upgrade - even fireballs kills them off, so at times the MF will be a better choice - currently I'm looking at playing against empire and tons of crossbow fire (and cannons and other stuff Im not happy about).

Besides all of the above quotes - I do very much appreciate the inputs given so far. It is interesting to get more input to a tough decision.

So one issue that has not be touched (much) upon so far is the unit size of 5+. Looking through some of the latest ETC lists; M.Cav was often taken in larger units (not only ogre armies but also eg empire's demigrifs) and I see the merits of that - no panic if one model gets cannon-balled and so. But has anybody some gaming experience with this? I see most regular players may only field a unit of 4 from a perspective of price/space/time to paint of 6 MF.

Ps. should anybody want to dive into the above math I can add the calculations - they are not too advanced but I'd rather get peoples input before I/we bore half of y'all to death : )

Cheers!

Core bulls can't kill 25 guys on the charge, as a matter of fact the only thing they can do is die horribly to anything with even average damage output.

whenever i run mournfang, it is always in a unit of 5 or 6, and always with the dragonhide banner
5 or 6 mournfang make a big target, perhaps big enough to draw eyes away from bulls and guts with characters in it

the only problem i have is my poor luck when charging with mournfang, it seems that 75% of the time, i need 6 to 8 inches on the dice to make the charge, and end up rolling something like a 1,2,2 or one time when i actually rolled triple ones on the charge

whenever i do get the charge off, the clean house, and their survivability annoys my opponents to no end

Core bulls can't kill 25 guys on the charge, as a matter of fact the only thing they can do is die horribly to anything with even average damage output.

i actually had a unit of 3 leadbelchers charged a horde of 30-40 dwarf warriors with great weapons in the rear, won combat and ran them down,

i mention this, since leadbelchers and bulls are identical statwise in close combat, unless you give bulls an extra hand weapon or an ironfist, in which case they are better than leadbelchers

Core bulls can't kill 25 guys on the charge, as a matter of fact the only thing they can do is die horribly to anything with even average damage output.

A 4-unit MF charging ws3/T3 troops does 20 wounds. That is hands down great - but assuming those wounds are goblins/slaves/anything-less-than-5pt, why did you even charge them? They'll be steadfast and hold down your ~400 pt unit. I can see the merit against eg. VC where you can actually almost reliably crumble a horde in one go.
To me that part of the discussion is irrelevant here - for other discussions it is highly important. I am maybe just playing against the wrong armies to really see the point : )

whenever i run mournfang, it is always in a unit of 5 or 6, and always with the dragonhide banner
5 or 6 mournfang make a big target, perhaps big enough to draw eyes away from bulls and guts with characters in it

the only problem i have is my poor luck when charging with mournfang, it seems that 75% of the time, i need 6 to 8 inches on the dice to make the charge, and end up rolling something like a 1,2,2 or one time when i actually rolled triple ones on the charge

whenever i do get the charge off, the clean house, and their survivability annoys my opponents to no end

Thank you for the details. Poor dice rolls though - Maybe the +1M banner would be an option : P

I think that raises another good point. When fielding MFs, they are natural cannon targets (no news there) but that almost dictates that the rest of your army will be very much prepared to charge in two 2 and in essence you'll generate a 'target overflow' for the opponent where you may loose a MF but your scouts and gut star lives to charge. In a 5-6 sized unit avoiding the panic makes the MF viable on the flank - or am I wrong here?

What stops me from taking the banner is the fact he dies when the unit breaks. If the combat goes sour and you have one mournfang left you want him to survive to save the points. So the chance he can escape is better than him auto dying and giving up 375 points. If the unit has no banner and still gets run down then it's only 290pts.

That's a very good point - losing the Standard is something people tend to forget even happens at times. I only ever remember it with the BSB truth be told, though I've often had the Ogre unit in question get run down anyway.

I suppose it depends upon what you're trying to accomplish with the unit. So, consider how likely the larger unit is to break from combat. See, their high speed gives them a better chance of getting away - so by not taking a standard you're ensuring more get away from combat to reform and come back later. But generally, with a unit that big, you're investing enough in to assume you're not going to lose. So, a Razor Standard is quite viable here.

On top of this, you should probably consider the splitting option. Two units of Mournfangs would really intimidate people, and you could always keep one nearer the BSB and have the other pack the Gleaming Pennant. It still makes dealing with enemy MC difficult though, but there's no guarantee those guys would be placed in a good position for your big unit to deal with them.

Just some thoughts I'm mulling around. One big unit of MFC would be cool, but it's just making sure your battle line doesn't go pear-shaped really.

I don't think big units are the way to go anymore. Too much of a shooting magnet.

What I would be tempted to do is run them in units of two with great weapons and use them to flank and help out your main blocks against anything with a one up save. Those extra strength six attacks will make all the difference.