Slave Giants, 8th Edition and the evolving meta-game.

After mentioning Slave Giants in another thread, I realised I hadn't seen a topic (or even another post) on them in quite a while.

I've been a fan of Giants since I played and Orc and Goblin army in 6th Edition. The love translated somewhat to Slave Giants when I joined the OK, and I was able to convert a Slave Giant from some modelling chain and the rather chunky metal model- the one used just before the plastic ones were released. Basically I'm hoping to re-open discussion (on what I can only assume is an under-used unit) so that I can try to help myself re-imagine a place for him in the current meta-game and see him marauding across tables again. Shelf life doesn't suit him all that much.

Since people have been bringing up the idea of using 3 man squads of Bulls as 'mini-chariots', I was reminded of how I used to run my old Giant. One of his uses was remarkably similar- sitting between two units (typically Bulls and Guts) and jumping in to either combo charge the front of an enemy, or hit them in the flank, if they charged first and my unit held.

I also used him with a lot of success on the flanks, as something of a jab, for those of you who like boxing or mixed martial arts. The point was to keep weaker enemy units away from my flank by looping him out wide on one side; so he could swiftly charge back to the center if needed, but was otherwise out on his own, so that the enemy weren't likely to send anything after him directly. Either way, I never regretted taking him.

Now that large monsters are swiftly becoming the norm, it seems like the battlefield is littered with a Slave Giant's favourite targets- large,expensive, multi-wound models with an Initiative lower than 3.

Since we got our current book a few years ago, our Giant benefited in multiple ways - points reductions, striking at large opponents' Initiative, instead of their Toughness, gaining Stubborn and perhaps the biggest/ most interesting point: he can be buffed by the LotGM - yet he still often gets overlooked as being uncompetitive, because of his random attacks. Somehow the thought of S7, T6, Regenerating Giants hasn't done anything for his popularity... I used to run him in the good ol' days, when Gut Magic could stack and we cast every first spell on a 3+... I would have given my left arm to be able to cast buffs on a Slave Giant then!

There have been a lot of threads about how Ogres are a very balanced army, being great in the hands of a good player but not overpowered. There have also been a lot of comments about how people are finally adjusting to our tricks and tactics, which means that less and less Ogre armies are winning competitions. Yet whenever I read army lists or hear people discuss tactics for the OK, I see a lot of the same general advice being doled out, and the same few builds being recycled.

Has enough changed in the meta-game to make people seriously look at Slave Giants again?

Has access to Ironblasters killed any chance of Slave Giants being more than pretty paperweights?

I believe that they do have a place; I'm just hoping to spark some more discussion on them, maybe alternate lists to get the best out of them, or just bring some of the other Giant lovers out of hiding 

I think giants can work. The arrogance of alot of players tends to make them overlook the fact he will beat any monster apart from the hydra or hellpit in a fight. I'd even put him up against a super prince to see what would happen.

However I don't field one in my ogres because I did play orcs and goblins for years and I knew what problems it faced.  Plus everyone of my opponents had a lizardmen army. I think they have their place with the greenskins but with ogres they don't seem to quite fit in. 

In my goblin army I will have lots of war machines, trolls and big squigs to allow the giant to go unmolested  by shooting whereas I can't really create that same level of target saturation with my ogre list.

A problem they could face in the overall meta is the fact the new warriors chariot spam lists might be forcing even more war machines into the game.

However I don't field one in my ogres because I did play orcs and goblins for years and I knew what problems it faced.  Plus everyone of my opponents had a lizardmen army. I think they have their place with the greenskins but with ogres they don't seem to quite fit in. 

In my goblin army I will have lots of war machines, trolls and big squigs to allow the giant to go unmolested  by shooting whereas I can't really create that same level of target saturation with my ogre list.

A problem they could face in the overall meta is the fact the new warriors chariot spam lists might be forcing even more war machines into the game.

Those are very interesting points. The first thing I realised when I was typing this topic up, was that Ironblasters are so ubiquitous now that often people will take 2 of them, which means you can't fit a Giant in as well- until you hit 2400pt games.

The point about target saturation is a good one, which is why I was looking at taking a Giant with 2 Ironblasters in the first place. From what I read on these forums it seems everyone that uses cannons/ warmachines tends to focus them on enemy cannons/ warmachines in the first couple of turns, so that they have an artillery advantage over the enemy. If we were able to take 2 Ironblasters and engage the enemy in an 'eye for an eye' artillery fight, then the Giant would definitely make it unscathed, right? (unless one of your IBs blew itself up early, but that's another matter )

What else do we have that attracts a lot of attention from enemy shooting?

Mournfangs, Maneaters, Stonehorns and Thundertusks all stand out.

Since Mournfangs and Maneaters are in 75% or more of 2000pt+ Ogre lists, we already have something that will be drawing fire; one of the things that's always thrown out in discussions about Giants is the old 'If they're shooting your Giant then they aren't shooting your Gutstar/ Horde-o-Bulls/ anything else useful. And it's damned true! Especially if you're running Maneaters and Mournfangs, which are both fairly fragile to Panic tests (MEs have terrible toughness & saves, MFC have terrible Leadership) I'd rather an enemy shoot at the Giant- it won't need to take panic tests for loosing wounds, but most importantly it won't lose any combat effectiveness when it looses wounds. That's actually one of the biggest things going for the large monsters, compared to our more expensive unit options.

In a similar vein to Ironblasters, Giants can also use cover effectively to hide from artillery until the path is clear if need be. Between Ironblasters, lone Sabretusks, vanguarding Sabretusk + Hunter, Gorgers, Fireballs, 3 man Bull units, 2 man Mournfang squads, we should have enough options to hard counter, or draw fire from, enemy artillery.

So it might require building around, but that was one of the points of interest I was hoping to discuss: Ogre lists which aren't (the now fairly standard) MMU + double Ironblaster.

After watching Kill.Feed.Repeat's video on Alternate Characters I liked the thought of using a Hunter + single Sabretusk, as a way of getting Vanguard on both and throwing your Warmachine hunters further up the field- probably far out on a flank. It's not something I had considered doing before, and it intrigued me. I've started messing around with a fast build for a list, that uses Scouting MEs, a unit of 2 Mournfangs, a Slave Giant, Hunter + 1 Sabretusk and an Ironblaster as a base, just to see if something like that can work; I like the idea of having multiple attack vectors and high manoeuvrability on nearly everything.

There is a movie called signs. And I think an issue at the core of this movie perfectly sums up my problem with Giants

Before I go any further I have to say, I am not a power gamer, and I have used my giant extensively. Ran it in my main all comers list for a long time.

Now, back to the movie signs. Its been out for plenty of time and its not exactly brilliant so I wont worry about spoilers too much but the gist of it is. Aliens invade earth, the aliens weakness is water, the earth is 80% water, The aliens die.

That is my problem with giants. Giants basic weakness isn't some monster, or monstrous cav or magic or warmachines(though they do decimate them) Giants are weak against anything that can pump out a decent number of attacks/shots at ANY strength. So basically. Core infantry. Throw a unit of spearmen at a giant and watch it die. Fire a unit of archers at a giant and watch it die. once you have hit it(very easy as it has low WS and is a very large target for archers) and all you have to do is roll a 6 and you are that much closer to its demise. In return its damage output against basic infantry is quite underwhelming considering its price and lack of protection.

With infantry being the most common unit type in warhammer this poses quite the conundrum. 

That's very true, but it's one of the things I've always been very careful to address when I've used my own Giants in the past; I wouldn't ever throw my Giant at the front of a unit and expect it to trounce them (I mean, it can trounce them, if you get lucky and roll high for Jump Up & Down and Thunderstomp, but I wouldn't expect it to happen).

I'd always use it as a combo or flank charger. That way you restrict the amount of attacks against it, and also make it harder for the enemy to score CR from your Bulls/ Guts/ Eaters. Only MFC are likely to take less damage from the same amount of attacks, so if you combo charge the front of an enemy unit you can deny combat res, and add higher Str. attacks than a similar base-sizes-worth of other Ogres. If you attack in the flank it gets even better as the enemy can't land support attacks, so you'll only have 4 models attacking you; if they haven't got great weapons or multiple attacks & halberds, then they're in trouble.

Similarly, the fact the Slave Giant is Leadership 10, with Stubborn built in, means you should always stick him into combat alongside another unit- then if there's a chance your other unit will run away, your Giant will be more than likely to hold the enemy up while you can rally/ reform. That natural Ld.10, in an army of low Ld. values should not be underestimated!

One thing that always confused me about the online perception of Giants, is that I kept reading/ being told 'they aren't for competitive players'. I can only assume it's because they have a random factor built into their attacks. I wouldn't say I'm a Win At All Costs kind of player, but I do like to know I've thought things out and played a good game- I don't mind losing, so long as I feel my overall generalship has been good and I wasn't taken by surprise (like not knowing rules/ what my opponents units do and that kind of thing). With that in mind I still like Giants, I just think you have to be careful with how you line them up, and what you send them against. I think too many people want to be able to throw them, alone and unaided into combat and then wonder why they die, or perform poorly; I think this has a lot to do with why they get looked down on a lot.

I always look at Giants (of either stripe) as being one of the best supporting units around- they just haven't got the durability to be a mainline unit, but they can be fantastic when lending help to other units.

Another way to look at it, would be to say that Ironblasters often compete with Giants for rare slots. Ironblasters are very good at what they do, which is pop big monsters and provide enfilading fire against units of Knights. In a pinch they can charge and do a few impact hits, but they won't be adding very much CR, or beating a unit of heavy cavalry that way.
Giants on the other hand, can also pop monsters. They can also do a lot of damage to infantry; their weakest attack can take a multi-wound infantry model (preferably with low S, like a wizard) off the table then provide an extra D6, S6 hits (3 wounds on average + multi-wounds from the character = 4+ points of CR). Their best will provide 3D6, S6 hits, which should net you about 9 wounds on average.

Giants are weak against anything that can pump out a decent number of attacks/shots at ANY strength. So basically. Core infantry. Throw a unit of spearmen at a giant and watch it die.

Since large units and hordes are becoming more popular, I would say that there is more reason than ever to take a Giant- those large units will be facing your own large units, or horde. Run your Giant up the flank and you'll have plenty of time to engage from the front and flank charge with the Giant because he will plough through 95% of enemy flanking units- Skinks and mounted Wraiths being the exceptions... Most of large units will have 4 - 5 ranks, which means only 4 - 5 people attacking back when you land on their flank rather than taking the 12+ people's worth of attacks when you fight Spearmen.

And to think, up till now I've been using my giant kit as bits for conversion.  This is rather inspirational; I think I'm going to give the big guy another shot.  Thanks, Bob!

I took one in pretty much every game in the old book, simply because I used Giantbreaker and we weren't exactly spoiled for options, and he always had some sort of impact in my games.  If nothing else, he'd draw an inordinate amount of fire away from my battle line, and one time he even pretty much won me a game by getting killed by Epedimius, and then falling directly onto him and his plague bearers.  Good times...

Tanksie makes some very good points (and I love the analogy about that movie ), but I think if the giant picks his battles he can do well.  I run one IB and a stonehorn as my standard loadout now, and I can fit the giant in too at 2500 points.  Now I just have to find a large anchor bit to go round his neck (my new ogres are escaped galley slaves, and the millstone just doesn't fit).

Haha, cheers Jihan. If nothing else you can get some very entertaining stories from using Giants; one of my favourites was during 7th Edition- seeing the look on a Lizardman players face as my Giant head-butted his Stegadon (!), then, on the next turn, threw the Skink Priest in the Houdah back at the Stegadon causing a few wounds and winning combat. It still makes me smile because it was so silly

I won't deny that I would be much more happy if Giants were changed to Toughness 6, or were given Swiftstride, or even a 20 point decrease (which I think is pretty fair). I still think they're overlooked by a lot of players because they actually need to be used with finesse, rather than as battering rams; for some reason a lot of people just seem to get confused by that 

If you get to try a Slave Giant in the not-too-distant future, be sure to let us know how he got on. It sounds like you have a fair bit of target saturation between your other rare choices, so I'd be interested to know how he'll get on. I mostly play 2000 point games myself, which means I can't fit in a Stonehorn unless I want to stick a Hunter on it (and then lose the ability to take a BSB...)

It's hard decisions like that that made me want to look at alternative lists. It'll keep me busy for a few days while I mess around with different core builds, so I'm happy

This thread just made me want to try out giant too! Thanks for that! Now I'm roaming around interwebz trying to think of what sort of model I want for giant. .. And I thought I had already used enough money on minis this summer.. oh well.

How about running 2 giants? I think it would quadrupole their effectiveness and here is the reason,

Attacking a single monster, not only does the monster have to kill twice as much but it also has to deal with twice the attacking output.

Also vs artillery/shooting troops I think a cannon would take between 2-3 shots to fell one, and with a movement of 6 I dont think it will be able to kill it before combat. And the relief on an opponents face when they kill a giant/big nasty will not come about as there will still be another one! If they choose to divide there fire they may do half wounds to each but then they still have the vast amounts of killing power.

Also imagine the psychological impact, that would also be quadrupole! First of all they will be perplexed you took one, this would double when they see you have two then the fear factor of them both will also come into play.

Also you would only need to squeeze the giants in corner to corner to get its full complement of attacks (however this would be risky if the giant falls - D3 wounds on an ogre block... ouch!)

Also two giants would make a good anvil (with buffs) charge the two in the front, the enemies will have to split attacks or focus on one giant either way there should be one or two wounded left standing. They should hold on stubborn Ld 10, then in the next turn you can simply plough the unit in the side with whatever you manoeuvred into a flanking position. Giants wont give away that much combat res, as they are quite tough and can only suffer a maximum of 6 wounds, and buffed this is quite unlikley (vs core)

Also take into account a giants base width, there is not that many attacks that can be thrown back at him when compared to something like the stonehorn.

However the problem with a giant is he is a giant pile of potential and potential only,
 and this can work extremely well for example if both jump up and down + thunderstomp = 6 d6 str 6 hits. Or if both jump up and down then fall over that is 4 d6 str 6 hits then two stone throwers @ str six smashing into the init.

Also imagine picking up that 200-300 point lord and eating him.

None of the attacks are really bad apart from swing with club can be dissapointing but the addition of thunderstomp has helped him out. His vulnerability is still a problem however if you can get him to regen or +1 toughness this would be a huge boon.

That said it is 400 points which probably means no Ironblasters, but we are weighing up the merits of them if they were used not what else we could use instead 

This is just some thoughts and Ideas I am no pro at Fantasy and haven't played all too many games so dont tear me down too harshly 

TLK

My problem was always the T5 and no save more than anything. However, your lovely reminder about LotGM working on him means that Bubbling spells is really quite entertaining. I've seen delightfully silly similar results with buffed Gnoblars, so I'll have to give this a shot, at least in one game.

Had a post about this topic a little while ago at http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=27090.msg356333#msg356333. I have run my giant in a few battles and he has given as good as he gets but few in my realm run many monsters so he is left as supporting unit against infantry and getting owned by Chaos Knights. Still, I feel he is a great unit and someday will try multiple as well.

Afternoon all, I gave my old lead marauder giant an outing in a 2k list last thursday at my local games workshop store. I made the list just for sh*ts and giggles, when I get home from work I'll put the army up on this thread. My giant soaked up a cannon ball - dwarves were my opponents, and a round of shooting from 10 thunderers, he then died to a unit of 10 miners with steam drill, but held them up for two turns and killed all but the champion. I'll be playing the same list this Thursday and will let you know the outcome.
By the way, I beat the dwarves 

Ok, so as promised, here is the 2K list:

Tyrant, heavy Armour, Crown of Command, Talisman of Preservation, Sword of Might 315 points

Firebelly, Level 2, additional hand weapon, hell heart 207 points

BSB, Gold Sigil Sword, Obsidian Amulet, Ironcurse Icon, heavy armour, ironfist 163 points

All Characters go in the gutstar.

10 Ironguts, full command, look out gnoblar, dragonhide banner 515 points

9 Maneaters, full command, heavy armour, 5 great weapons, 4 additional hand weapons, Banner of Swiftness, immune to psychology + swiftstride 594 points

Giant 200 points

Total 1994 points

Do you find Heavy Armour helps at all on the Maneaters? For the points I reckon you could get a Sabretusk or two in there, as the Gutstar does suffer from redirection issues.

I'm amazed your Giant survives that well - Dwarven Cannons doing only D3 wounds means they don't really want to fire at Ogre units, so I figured they'd all pile into your Giant...

Dwarf cannons do d6 wounds as fair as I'm aware.

I can get a unit of scouting maneaters with poison and flaming banner for the same cost as a giant.

I would forgive giants if they weren't such a liability. A falling giant is no fun for a nearby ogre unit. Sure you can use them on the flanks but I've not used an ogre since one managed to steal defeat from the jaws of victory by falling over, killing itself and half a unit of ogres in a combat that was a dead cert before it did that.

Each to their own, that combo of maneaters works very well for me.
Regarding the falling giant issue... I had him on the flank and made sure my other 2 units were not in his vicinity when he took a tumble. Only having three units total makes that very easy.
All cannons do d6 wounds now I think.
When facing strength 3 armies and bow fire, heavy armour is a god send.
Cats have their uses, but if they are killed and their within 6 inches of another unit, that unit takes a panic test, for ogres low leadership than can be something of a problem. Nothing worse than seeing a unit of leadies running off the board thanks to a cat meeting his doom early in the game.

Huh, someone told me it was errata'd. How odd. Must be going mad.

Hmm, suppose I never really fight a lot of bows, save for Wood Elves who tend to get the Strength 4 bonus often enough that it makes little difference.

Yeah, I get the point with cat panic. I tend to castle a little for the BSB benefit though, ever since a disastrous first turn involving a Screaming Skull catapult that I'd rather not repeat...

The point about target saturation is a good one, which is why I was looking at taking a Giant with 2 Ironblasters in the first place. From what I read on these forums it seems everyone that uses cannons/ warmachines tends to focus them on enemy cannons/ warmachines in the first couple of turns, so that they have an artillery advantage over the enemy. If we were able to take 2 Ironblasters and engage the enemy in an 'eye for an eye' artillery fight, then the Giant would definitely make it unscathed, right? (unless one of your IBs blew itself up early, but that's another matter )

I can back this method up as I did take this to a tournament last year and actually did alright because of the giant so many people were scared of the damn thing lol and it only died twice out of the 2 days I played.

I've taken 2 giants in my night goblins army, their a load of fun and having 2 means one usually survives to smash things up. I haven't used them with my ogres though (not that I've used them much in 8th) but the problem I'd have is with ogres I can spend the points on more effective models whereas with my night goblins I need something scary that can smash big things.

... the problem I'd have is with ogres I can spend the points on more effective models whereas with my night goblins I need something scary that can smash big things.

That's a very good point. It seems as though having access to the Ironblaster has really limited us in a lot of ways- largely because it's so cost effective that it becomes a no-brainer, compared to our other choices. In a lot of ways I think that Giants are at least as good at Ironblasters, but the difference in points cost means I always take Ironblasters myself at the moment, because my points are so tight everywhere in my lists (I play 2000pt games almost exclusively).

If I want to use Giants I have to build a list with them in mind, which means cutting away some of the other new, safer and more interesting options we have.

The more I play with our 8th Ed. army book the more I get frustrated...
(See my second post: http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=27208.75)

Personally I think giants need to be re worked, I think GW is reluctant to do it because their in so many books. If they were dropped to 150pts or even 175pts and given a thick skin armour save of 4+ or toughness 6 (may be extreme with a points drop) they'd be taken a lot more often.

I, for one, think that the Giant is the ultimate causal gamer model. I don't really care that is it sub-optimal, I am putting one in my army cause I love the idea of having something that makes my ogres look small walk up and beat something upside the head or be killed and fall over and squish something. Either way a good time will be had by all.

And that is all I am really in this hobby fore.

Adding Regeneration would drastically increase it's use. Even +1T helps. Thats why I always chose the Maw as my magic lore when playing a Giant.

I chose Ogres as my 2nd army partly because they have access to a Giant. I love the model and the random attacks. It's far from the Hydra that I'm used to play, but hey, at least the Giant 25 pts more expensive!

I love the Giant and always like to field it. Fielding 2 Hydras is like WAAC, fielding 2 Giants promises a fun game for both players.

Hi all. Im taking a 2 giant ogre army to my local games workshop store tonight. Will post the list and result tomorrow evening.

Adding Regeneration would drastically increase it's use. Even +1T helps. Thats why I always chose the Maw as my magic lore when playing a Giant.

I chose Ogres as my 2nd army partly because they have access to a Giant. I love the model and the random attacks. It's far from the Hydra that I'm used to play, but hey, at least the Giant 25 pts more expensive!

I love the Giant and always like to field it. Fielding 2 Hydras is like WAAC, fielding 2 Giants promises a fun game for both players.

+1 Toughness eh? Now, Giants of Nurgle get that particular benefit. Mebbe I should test this out...

Still, them being cheaper would definitely help. I don't get why they're priced so highly when they're so easy to kill. GW, don't you want to sell more models?! This is an opportunity here! No, put down those marin-

Well, I LOVE giants and I do field two. Every time. I know it's not the most practical but by The Maw, I love them. They are beautiful, fun, and even a bit intimidating. I use the Forgeworld models so they tower over the battle field like real giants! I've placed them on custom bases to match the standard giant base and I have one of each! They are a WIP, however I will not relinquish this rare option. I do believe they need a save added, or perhaps a natural increase to their Toughness stat but right now, just cast Maw magic and let them rip.

I'd love to see some one's battle report with giants. I usually find that if I use an Ironblaster the damn thing misfires or I estimate my distance and without fail, miss my target with an over shot or a short bounce. I have recently bought a Thundertusk as I like that model too but, giants are... Well, they ARE FRIGGEN GIANTS!

Hi all. Im taking a 2 giant ogre army to my local games workshop store tonight. Will post the list and result tomorrow evening.

We are still very eager to know how this turned out. Or at least I am.

We are still very eager to know how this turned out. Or at least I am.

Seconded

Hey team! I've gone and added this topic to the other one I've got in the Tactica index as I think its a useful discussion for anyone interested in playing a Giant or two.

Keep it up!

http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=26514.msg350048#msg350048

I had my first game with giant included, it was 1500pt game against high elves. Quick notes about them game concerning the giant.

Turns 1-2 I did not get any buffs on him and he took 4 wounds from enemy fire, but he did absorb quite a lot of the fire as predicted. Which means not so much fire against GutBlocks. Which is nice. Still 4 wounds is quite bad :/

Turns 3-4 he was in +1T / regen bubble and he killed 200pt of archers without taking any wounds.

Turn 5 he was buffed with regen and absorbed more enemy fire without any wounds

Turn 6 he tried to make few more points charging nearby bolt thrower. Giant had 2 wounds and was buffed with regen, alas this wasn't enough as those 2 crewmembers (2 attacks) managed to get trough giant's toughness and I failed regen so he died before getting to attack. This was sad and I don't know what were the odds for this, but it sure can't be very high Giant did fall over the bolt thrower but did only 1 wound and did not kill that darn thing!

After thoughts: It was fun and he didn't screw up just falling randomly, he killed those archers with ease in one turn, but after all did not get me more points than he is worth. (But he still did get me points!) And he did absorb quite a huge load of enemy fire, which is of course very nice

For the last few months, I've been running a Giant in more lists, just to see how he'd fare.  He does tend to get shot at and up from time to time.  But if he doesn't get cut down at range, he's just nasty in the face of things.  The worst showing I've had yet from him was against Dark Elves, and their sick, sick Chariot of Many Nasty Things What Kills You, or whatever it's called (Cauldron of Blood).  He got charged and took all his wounds in one set of impacting nastiness and then fell only enough to clip one or two tiny little puny elves.  But that was only after he and a group of Maneaters ate all the Executioners. 

The last two weeks, I've played against a Khorne-heavy Daemon army.  First at 1,000 points, then at 2,000 points.  In both cases, my Giant one-shotted a big guy for the win: a Soulgrinder, and a Bloodthirster.  Thump With Club is not to be discounted.  Of course, the fact that my opponent rolled a natural 6 with his Bloodthirster for the Initiative check didn't help him at all.   Do I expect that sort of chicanery to work every time?  Nope.  Am I going to grin like an Ogre at a Vegas buffet when it does?  You betcha.