Working with Ogre Bulls as chariots (or other options)?

I groan a little inside whenever I end up with more than 8 ironguts eating up core points, but I can't seem to get much real effectiveness out of my ogre bulls and I can only eat up so many useful points with gnoblars.

A couple of people have mentioned this running units of 3 ogre bulls and the idea intrigues me but I'll admit I don't quite see what the goal is. It just seems to me that taking a unit I already feel is largely combat ineffective and making it smaller seems like an even less useful.


Alternatively, asides from remembering to buff them, how exactly do you get use out of ogre bulls? I always feel like they're swinging pillows in exchange for a 6+ parry save.

Yeah, MSU Ogres are something that many people swear by but I've never really understood... running your Bulls in a horde is an option, although that's a huge amount of points.
You could always just add a few Bulls, then your 8 guts, Gnoblars, and use points elsewhere on more hard-hitting units, like Maneaters or Mournfangs. Why do you groan when you use more than 8 guts? I love them..

Why do you groan when you use more than 8 guts? I love them..

Oh I like my guts too, I just dislike feeling like I'm running a gutstar (although I'd argue 8 guts and 3 characters isn't really a gutstar, the idea applies).

That and I get bored running the same list every time and want to figure out other ways to at least be competitive

WS3 S4 with very little access to rerolls just doesn't cut the mustard as a mainline unit against a lot of units, even with the tasty autohits. I've only tried out the increasingly-popular two units of three in a single game, but in theory they're solid as 'heavy chaff' You're not looking to barrel over sizeable combat blocks, but there are lots of opposing chaff units, monsters etc. out there that won't like the impact hits and stomps and once they've taken out that lot they can look at getting in some opportunistic flank or rear charges.

for me MSU bulls doesn't work. the strength of ogres is to absorb damage and throw it back. ie have had games where a high elf unit will do 11 wounds to my 8 strong bulls. I had 5 bulls left and made the elves combat ineffective. next phase of combat I wipe them out for a couple of wounds back to me.

3 bulls just wont hang around.

Why do you groan when you use more than 8 guts? I love them..

Oh I like my guts too, I just dislike feeling like I'm running a gutstar (although I'd argue 8 guts and 3 characters isn't really a gutstar, the idea applies).

That and I get bored running the same list every time and want to figure out other ways to at least be competitive

Well take two units of seven or eight ironguts. Comes just over minimum core for 2400 and is really solid. Lets you spread out your characters aswell.

The idea behind the bulls is that they can hunt down chaff and get in the way. Like faster gnoblars.

If I was ever inclined to use bulls I would use them in small units like that but I don't because I fill out all my points with those two units of guts whether I'm playing 1500, 2k, 2400 or 2500.

It's worth a try though so go for it.

How would you deploy the small 'Bull-Chariot'?

3 wide?
2 in the front rank, one behind to save space?
Take an extra Bull and run 2 x 2, to make the most of supporting attacks?

I used to use Lead Belchers in 2 x 2 formation and really liked the fact that they can all shoot, and all contribute supporting attacks. It reduces the number of Stomps you get, but reduces the impact of their footprint on the table, so that they can often squeeze into situations that they might not normally fit (like flank charges)

3 wide with add hand weapons. I love it. Good chaff, great at killing chaff and warmachines, extra punch in the side with your Gutstar (or whatever else you may be running), and most importantly: DROPS! I usually run 2 units of 3 with add hand weapons and 3 tusks. That gives me 5 'I'm not too worried about these units' drops. That way you can pick your fights easier.

Also, for 93 points, 9 wounds and 12 S4 attacks (not including stomps nor impact hits), the unit is pretty cheap and can be quite effective.

They're also pretty good just to hunt down some small, cheap mage bunker unit - or at least put pressure on it.

But be careful with panic - 3w T4 (and ld7) wounds goes quickly : ) But of course if you are use to dodge SP-panic test then it wont be a problem.

I feel 93 pt is rather a lot for something that may not really do much. Getting the charge with 3 guys is great but how often will that happen? I see then end up as re-directers and here they are too expensive compared to eg. gnoblars.

Well, I may be biased by the local meta with high armorsaves and 3+ ini making the bulls near useless.

Think about it this way - Gnoblars are strictly redirectors when built for it. That 93 point Ogre squad has versatility - can go scoop up warmachine points, maybe catch a lone unit in the side - can even support combats by going after other combat supporters, like chariots who've already hit you (better if they haven't yet though!)

If they're being used on the flanks though, chances are the same Warmachines/ ranged units they're hunting would surely be able to inflict 3 wounds and cause a panic test (on Ld.7) outside of Inspiring Presence/ Hold Your Ground range. That makes them a risky proposition for filling that role in.

I see what you're getting at, but personally, that's the same role I'm happy using Slave Giants in; even gaming across two editions I've never had one let me down, actually. Even if you weren't using Giants, there are other, in my eyes, more capable options for the same role: multiple Sabres, a Scraplauncher/ Ironblaster, 2 Mournfangs.

Even Gorgers are less of an investment but get across the board in about as much time.

True. But they do only count towards core. Not massively important, but it's something. And they're not that bad at their job too.

No idea how you got Slave Giants to work though. Giants HATE me. Once one fell back onto my own wizard in my dogs of war list...

Slavegiants 'worked' because they were reasonably mobile (and still are, for what it's worth) and, more importantly, the rest of the book sucked rather hard.

Plus a skilled general ensures he falls in the right direction. That name ain't fer show, bub.

I do like the fact that you can keep the chaff in your Core section, I just think that if I was looking for a 'pound for pound' comparison, I'd do it knowing you could get better units to fill the gap. Being Core and costing a few points less are pretty much the only convincing factors that would make me use Bulls in this way, although I do really appreciate thinking out of the box like this. It's made me think of trying something new and giving it a go, which is always a good thing.

The only game I've had in memory, in which my Giant looked like he'd thrown in the towel early, was against Tomb Kings- he managed to use a small lane between units to charge a Casket of Souls; promptly fell over before doing any damage, then lost a couple of wounds to attacks. The casket was still in combat, so couldn't use it's Bound spell however (which was a major point). In my next turn the Giant stood up, picked the Heirophant up and threw him into the middle of the board- disintegrating the Casket and leaving him easy pickings. I thought he'd fluffed it big time until my opponent told me the Casket couldn't operate without the Hierophant. Every other game he's been an invaluable tool- either a giant target (literally) which my opponent focusses on to the exclusion of more dangerous elements, or he's left unchecked and can be a massive thorn in their side, with high Ld, Stubborn, good manoeuvrability and ability to reliably take on other large monsters.

 It also might colour my opinion somewhat that I use the last generation of metal giant, which means enjoying him on a much smaller base than the new plastic Giant- the footprint vs. 3 Bulls is much more favourable on the older, smaller base. I still think it's a valid point, even when talking about the chariot sized base of the Plastic Giant though, because you can squeeze between units easier than Ogres ranked 3 wide.

Mine is startlingly awful, though I will admit having never run him with Ogres, only Dogs and Beasts. Perhaps I'll give him a shot with Ogres and see how people react then.


Also, I should probably clarify, for people who see me complaining about my awful luck - I do have good luck with many units, I just like to rant about the ones who fail me miserably^^. There's something about a Giant falling and missing three Dark Elf units to splat my level 4 that really does make me feel like someone's out to get me.

Well, going back to the ChaffBull debate (wasn't there a Giant thread that just started, like, yesterday? lol)...

I've never tried this 3-bull attempts, but I think it's worth a shot. Here's my "why"s:

1. It's DIFFERENT from the 90% Gutstar/Gutbus lists out there on the Interwebz.

2. Sure, 3 wounds and LD7 is pretty mediocre, but, losing 93 points from a cannon shot or a barrage of arrows is a better wasted turn than a 170 point Ironblaster being gunned down (or a possible character snipe/cripple via cannon). Plus, this assumes that the cannon hits, wounds, and rolls at least a 3 on the multi. Which are all variables, which may or may not happen in a round.

3. It's probably some of the strongest chaff out there (although my semi-limited experience could be missing a couple other better candidates). It does hit hard, and if you happen to get the Maw sig spell off, it can potentially stay for a couple rounds, holding up other stuff and being all chaffy (hopefully it doesn't chafe you though )... However, minor segue...

4. Gut Magic is very supportive of all Ogre units. It can be amazing how a bubble Toothcracker or Bullgorger after two to three units charge in can be absolutely devastating

5. Last point for now! You could potentially get more Bulls into the fight than if they were in a large unit. If you have 3 bulls in each flank and a 4x2 pack in the front, that's 42 attacks from all sides! (ok, assuming high I doesn't completely cut them all down lol)...

I dunno, I'd like to try it.

I think that I'd probably look at using units of 3 Yhetees instead of Bulls, if I wanted a small 'Chaff Buster' unit. The fact that Yhetees are Initiative 4 is a big swing in their favour for me; considering that, and the fact that they're Strength 5 basic, they will benefit from Bull Gorger a lot more than Bulls will. Swiftstride will also allow them to run off on a flank and still make it back in reliably.

The only reasons that Bulls stand out in this role are:
1) They are Core
2) They are slightly cheaper than the alternatives

Given the circumstances I can't see many scenarios when I would need to fill out my core section with chaff (I usually take a unit of Bulls and another of Ironguts as Core units. I also don't foresee a time when I wouldn't have the points to upgrade them to Mournfangs/ Maneaters/ Yhetees/ Leadbelchers- all of which are units I feel would outperform Bulls for only slightly more of an outlay.

(wasn't there a Giant thread that just started, like, yesterday? lol)...

Yep: which I started the other day after writing about Giants in this thread

I have been to 3 tourneys now using a list that only has one unit bigger than 3 ogres, that is a unit of 7 guts with tyrant and bsb.  This list has been very successful for me as my record is 10-1-2 and winning 2 of these tourneys.

I find the small 3 packs of ogres to be amazing.  I usually run them 2x1 and will sometimes put a lvl 2 in there.   I don't take them for any kind of killing power, that isn't their role.  Unless of course they are killing chafe.  They are there to control the movement phase plain and simple.  They set up my tyrants unit for the charges he wants and also lock down other units so I can't be counter charged.  With high movement and very good maneuverability...I find that I dictate the game more often than not.  In fact the only loss I have is against a very good skaven general who just plain and simple out chafed me.  Even then, it was very close.

Remember also if your enemy is shooting at the unit of 3 bulls that means he isn't shooting at your gutstar or your ME/MF.

I love running 2 units of 3 naked bulls.  They hunt other chaff and warmachines very well, and if the warmachine shoots at them then they aren't shooting at your main combat units so it's still a win!
They can even hold up your opponent's tarpit units for a round or 2 so you can get your main units around the tarpit (zombies, peasants etc.)

They have amazing versatility and ability for only 90 points (even as cannon fodder).