Maneater Snipers

I'm thinking of running a unit of 6 Maneaters with the poisoned attacks and sniper special rules. Should I run them with Ogre pistols or a Brace of pistols?

also

If I need more than a 6 to hit (e.g. Long range, sniping, multiple shots) are my attacks still poisoned? I can't remember and I don't have my rulebook available at the moment.

Thanks for any assistance

Gutstar

If you need more than a 6 then poison is a no-go.  I think Brace of Pistols is the way to go....more shots =well...more shots   

Brace of pistols -> more dice = more sixes = more posion. I did the mathhammer on this once, going from a 5->6 on multishot results in the same number of expected hits, but a higher number of expected wounds (since every hit autowounds)

Long range + sniper + double tap = hits on 6s for maneaters (unless my math is bad).

If you don't hit on a 6 you can't posion, so never fire in such a way that needs 7s.


I'v had a good deal of success with my sniper posion pistoleaters, though now everyone concentrates fire on them till they die

Careful though - it's not a popular unit amongst opponents! Always felt guilty using it against a Tomb King player (Y halo thar Heirophant)

Its a hard counter to things like the Frostheart phoenix which is not popular with their opponents. Those things are nasty and the only thing I've found that can reliably kill the frozen Turkey from our army.

Careful though - it's not a popular unit amongst opponents! Always felt guilty using it against a Tomb King player (Y halo thar Heirophant)

That's a pretty bad example though, because tomb king players are saddled with the most obnoxious game mechanic in existence; the hiero-oopsdidhejustdie, goodbyearmyphant.

Against most normal armies, poison snipers are not nearly as disastrous as they are against Tomb Kings, simply because the death of a single character won't result in the entire army falling apart for others. Perhaps vampires will hate it equally much, but then again, what else are you going to do to a blenderpire?

Well, popping a BSB gets an equally dismayed reaction. Oddly, I first managed this on a TK player mad enough to take one...

The Flaming Banner I've heard posited around here as being good for them for shooting at Regen monsters though, if you're into that. Stupid Chimeras.

I do not find the snipers work great and certainly not twice against the same opponent. There's just no excuse for a hierophant getting sniped. Firstly, a ward might be a good investment. It takes, on average, 36 shots to take out a hierophant with 3 wounds and a 4+ ward. Even then, you can hide him behind troops and make sniping near impossible. Since the maneaters don't have scout if they're poison/sniper he should be able to see where they're going unless you out-drop your opponent's characters, which is hard with ogres. Only if the enemy refuses (or is unable) to respond to the threat of the maneaters do you get an easy assassination.

That said, it is not to say that poison snipers don't have an effect on the game. I've run them a bit and I've found that often I'll not use the sniper capability at all... but it forces the enemy to deploy characters like BSBs in suboptimal positions, which can be very useful.

Come on... the ME sniper unit cost almost 400ppm (including a banner with fire). Surely they are great for killing characters and nasty monsters, but they cannot handle anything with a high armour or ward safe. Ogres cannot handle a lot of targets and here the ME comes in the picture but at a high cost excluding other almost essential items in the armybook.

A T4, light armor W3 troop... it is a no brainer to shoot at. Empire crossbowmen will take them out quickly - remember that if 1-2 ME models die the unit is significantly reduced in power.

They can be dealt with and some opponent just have to adjust : )... Nobody is really that afraid of mournfangs anymore ; )...

I don't think my sniper maneaters earned their points back once in the last 5 game tournament I ran, but they did cause massive havoc and allow my core ironguts and ogres to get into combat largely unmolested. Of course, I usually dropped them last which means they were lined up.

They also almost always had *something* to shoot at - a naked bsb here, a scroll caddie there - they also have fun shooting things that rely on getting into challenges to become 'tough' (see the Empire's Speculum of 'hahaha i have an ogre statline now')

They're also still blenders in combat, 15 attacks +stomps from the front rank alone hurts.


I wouldn't give them sniper + flaming banner, one or the other - the dragonhelm and dragonbane gem are too cheap/common (at least in my meta) that I'd hate to have all their shots bounce because of a flaming ward.

This topic has been done to death in this forum, but the short of it is this:  Snipereaters will net you wins against novice players.  Smart players with well rounded lists will screen anything of value, requiring absurdly large units to reliably down the target.  Its much better to use Maneaters to go after opposing war machines or monsters.

Math:  Naked lord level caster in the open needs 9 maneaters to reliably kill, at long range.  Once he has a ward save (usually at least 4+), you are talking 18 maneaters.  Plop one unit of whatever in front of said wizard then you need 29 maneaters to one round him (double that if he has a 4+ ward).  If the wizard in question is in a skirmishing unit or has any sort of descent armor save, then your increasing it by even more.

So basically, if your opponent is an idiot or deploys badly enough for you to poison snipe him on turn one, then you need a nine man unit to do it reliably.  He is almost certain to hide the guy after one turn of that or, worse, will have some means of healing said model.  Its a fun gimmick, but no one with half a brain is going to let you wail away on their naked mage or BSB for more than a turn and the unit size you need to make it a reliable fast kill is just too expensive.

If you insist on using this unit, though, you may as well go scout and sniper in a small (say 4 man) unit that you can put down to nab back row wizards from a flanking position.  You likely will not kill them, but skunking a few unit champs (stops challenge shenanigans) or tapping a random wound on a support wizard (makes them less cavalier about 6 dicing a support spell), can be helpful on occasion.

For me the premier combo will always be the poison stubborn flaming unit for stripping regen and popping war machines while you approach.

Well, that's the point - it only upsets novice players, and they're the ones you shouldn't be doing something like that on. They do learn valuable lessons mind, so it can help, but it's never a good idea to field these character hunters against someone just starting out. Leaves a sour taste.

Math:  Naked lord level caster in the open needs 9 maneaters to reliably kill, at long range.  Once he has a ward save (usually at least 4+), you are talking 18 maneaters. 

What is your level of reliably? : )
But true - the math will clearly show that sniping lord-class characters will be useless, even without saves. But why only focus on characters? Monsters go down quickly too - even trolls (incl fire) and then a blast of leadbelchers.

I would never take more than 8 ME in a unit for shooting and I see the use of a 6-pack to be great for 'players not expecting snipers' or to dominate his deployment (forcing the opponent to place juicy targets in cover). As mentioned the CC output from the ME is massive - also something people forget.

Anyway - the forum is rather full of ME discussions.

Maneaters with pistols and poison are not a bad choice and indeed quite good at popping off wounds from monsters. Coupled with flaming banner can strip regen from gribblies. But this role does not gel well with sniper.

@Joakim-
Mostly, because of what GI said.  You do not need sniper to pop wounds off of monsters and war machines.  Putting something like Stubborn or Scout in there expands their role from that of Lead Belchers into a combat utility unit, however.  This is the main reason I like Maneaters over just about anything else in the book.  They are good at range and good in a fight.  They CAN be a stubborn rock and they CAN be good in deployment/movement, depending on what you need or take.  MFC and Leadies are limited in their roles and have some serious weaknesses, hence why I am not a big fan of them.

I think the key takeaway here is that Braces of Ogre Pistols on Maneaters are awesome, and you can still take those if you don't take Sniper. They will do just fine as war machine and monster killers.

Poison is a force multiplier in both shooting and mele, but yeah that x1million.

Though, if you're running multiple blocks of maneaters, the pistolier ones will probably get more bang for their buck than a basic combat squad or scouting unit.

See, this is why Maneaters get talked about all the time. They're like ten units in one.

I'd reiterate that just because the poison sniper maneaters rarely actually snipe anyone doesn't necessarily make them useless. People are scared of them, often far more scared than they actually should be. Your four sniper maneaters might actually struggle to kill a naked BSB ... but does the opponent know that?

Putting sniper maneaters on the board can cause otherwise good players to put their characters in silly positions lest they get sniped out of their units. I've seen the threat from snipers make players really lose focus ... putting their combat units behind bunker units to keep combat characters safe or putting general/bsb way away from their main line.

A unit does not need to "make it's points back" to have an effect on the game! You can up the psychological impact by smack-talking how dangerous those snipers are or modelling them with sniper rifles or talking up past successes (no need to mention how rare successes are!).

Of course, you need to not fall victim to your own propaganda. Accept that you aren't going to necessarily use sniper and keep focused - if you should be firing at monsters, don't get distracted by the unlikely sniper shot.

I would rather have something like Stubborn that does not rely on my opponent being foolish to work.  If we are talking about waging psychological warfare, scout is vastly superior to sniper.  Sniper is a newb trap, plain and simple.

I would rather have something like Stubborn that does not rely on my opponent being foolish to work.  If we are talking about waging psychological warfare, scout is vastly superior to sniper.  Sniper is a newb trap, plain and simple.

I'd feel rather vulnerable not having stubborn on such an expensive unit.

One of my mates came up to me and asked why I didn't take sniper maneaters. I simply told him you'd have to be an idiot to let your opponent make use of it. He went kinda quiet as it turned out he was recommending them because they just killed his BSB and a wizard in a game.

His was a warriors of chaos army with no chaff whats so ever though so it was hardly surprising.

Sniper has really not worked out for me in my games with maneaters. If your opponent knows what he's doing, Any lord valuable enough to merit sniping will usually have tons of protection that you probably won't get through. And with maneaters costed the way they are, that's a poor use for them.

 That said, a 4-6 strong scouting unit with stubborn, banner of swiftness and HA, brace of pistols, usually deployed in a forest in the opponent's half of the board, with a BSB a turn away from arriving in support range, can really ruin an opponent's day.

In my last match they went through a 40-strong unit of halberd men-at-arms like butter then combo-charged a bus of knights. But that was against an opponent who had never faced them before, normally against more experienced  opponents I keep them in/nearer my lines (stubborn or swiftstride/scout or poisoned attacks, BoP, flaming banner), screened by gnoblars/terrain. They're expensive glass cannons, so you have to be careful with them. 

With so many other, better options out there, sniper usually takes a back seat.

I would rather have something like Stubborn that does not rely on my opponent being foolish to work.  If we are talking about waging psychological warfare, scout is vastly superior to sniper.  Sniper is a newb trap, plain and simple.

To quote a taco ad..."why don't we just have both?!" I run poison sniper mannies and scout/stubborn mannies. Even vs a vet player, the potential to snipe out a hero level wizard/bsb/champ is always there. I run 4 snipers and they are a great investment. Anymore for me is over kill.

leadies give up far too much for the lower points cost. 6 leadies get on average 21 shots. at long range that's 7 hits. vs T3 that's 4 wounds. woo hoo.

actually I love to run 3 units of mannies for added fun.

Sniper or no sniper.... it does depend on playing style and the army you bring : ) If your enemy knows you'll bring sniper then the opponent may have to spend points for extra protection (most wizards cannot buy armor so precious ward save may go here and not on a bsb with armor) or he needs to keep the wizard out of range. As mentioned I would not snip lords with 3w but rather heroes with 2w where I can hope to roll 2x 6's. This can kill off a scroll-caddy, which leaves me to another good point for snipers: rockeye, a 5ppm item that can reveal magic items in a unit, a simple deduction can make sure you know which character to snipe. Naked BSB? scroll caddy, lvl4 with no save?

I do enjoy a unit of 4 ME with scout and swiftstride for hunting warmachine or the empire circus-wagons... I'll play against empire today I am thinking a list containing the following:

6-7 sniper+poison eaters (no fire, maybe armor piecing)
4 scout+swiftstride/stubborn eaters with ahw
IB
~10 Ironguts
some lead belchers
SPs
Characters.

I have thought of trying a heavens list, but I often find that I miss the buff spells against hard hitting cavalry. Chain lightning is just such a great tool to zapp lone characters trying to avoid sniping behind units : )

Comet in the middle of the table and trapper spam are pretty solid against most forms of cavalry.  Plus, there is a ton of black powder and no one is stopping you from taking Ironguts.  I think the Ogre gunline is actually the strongest form of the list, but it is super frustrating for the opponent to face and there is a bit of a learning process to know when to come out and engage.

I suppose there -is- one more pretty good use for the guy.

Who likes poison/sniper maneaters?
Who likes poison/stubborn maneaters?
Who likes sniper/stubborn maneaters? (Okay, ridiculous combination, moving on.)


Why not... have all three?

The odds of rolling below 4 with 2 dice is pretty remote, so you will almost always be able to buy a crown of command. If you're not already running it elsewhere, it's a good way to get an "extra maneater" ability onto them.

This was something that occurred to me after looking at the swedish comp points restrictions for golgfag (he's a hefty penalty unless you also take the crown of command). Took me a while to figure that one out but it means that he can get the crown of command without getting hit by the (considerable) comp hit for taking it on another character.

For uncomped play, however, I can't really see why you'd take him over a regular bruiser with crown of command.

This was something that occurred to me after looking at the swedish comp points restrictions for golgfag (he's a hefty penalty unless you also take the crown of command). Took me a while to figure that one out but it means that he can get the crown of command without getting hit by the (considerable) comp hit for taking it on another character.

For uncomped play, however, I can't really see why you'd take him over a regular bruiser with crown of command.

Because your regular bruiser won't be able to benefit from the maneater rules. I'm thinking, for example... scout/poison, toss him in there with the crown to make them stubborn as well.

I always felt that Golgfag's main 'thing' was that you'd basically be able to tailor him to your opponent in tournaments, because of when you roll. It might be worth considering him in that respect to grab the more comped items, and crown of command requires that you roll a mere 4+ on 2D6...


Other than that, he's quite a risk in eating into the hero points allowance, and as was pointed out he does bug me with his 'free' 2D6 x 10 of magic items that you're technically already paying for, but you can tailor him, and a good roll can mean you can make him relatively killy. Maybe at higher points, he might be worth considering.

Because your regular bruiser won't be able to benefit from the maneater rules. I'm thinking, for example... scout/poison, toss him in there with the crown to make them stubborn as well.

Whilst Golgfag will get the Maneater rules of the unit he joins Scout is not one of them- he can't deploy with a unit that Scouts, so therefore can't actually get the Scout ability until he joins them, which will be later in the game and thus renders it useless.

He could benefit from Vanguard though, for similar shenanigans, as he deploys in the unit, gets the Vanguard ability, then you make the move after deployment.

Back on topic, I'm going to be taking some Maneaters to a friendly, slightly competitive tournament this weekend; I wanted to run them to make my army more interesting, and as a counter to the Hellpit Abomination that I've been told will be making an appearance... I figure 6 MEs with BoOPs, Poison and Banner of Eternal Flame will definitely do the trick.

I'm stuck deciding on the secondary ability though. Sniper seems great, as I'll be against Tomb Kings (juicy wizard targets as well as the one wound Casket of Souls keeper), High Elves and Skaven (taking out the BSB seems great if possible).

However I think in light of the Hellpit, people will probably be packing Flaming attacks, which means they might be bringing Fire-ward saves... So I've been contemplating other abilities. Going against the grain, Stubborn seems like a bad choice to me. If a unit of Maneaters is losing combat, with a BSB and Ld9 general nearby, then I expect them to stay, or to take so much damage they're going to die anyway. I expect my guys to win combat against most of the units out there, and if they can't then I've used them wrong. The only things that can blow through them will be Bolt Throwers, a big unit of Silver Helms + Noble w/ Ogreblade, the Hellpit, a Doomwheel, and if they get charged by TK chariots. In every case there will be better targets for them to go after, so I'll probably be doing that [with the exception of the Hellpit, which hopefully will get drilled before it can do anything...]

Other contenders are Scout and Swiftstride, but in both cases I feel too vulnerable. On the one hand, I can Scout, but with the unit costing so much, the enemy will just turn to keep me (and my main battleline) in their front arc, so I gain no real advantage that I can see. On the otherhand I deploy them in my battleline and use Swiftstride to engage quickly, which seems a little better, but opens them up to more enemy shooting and magic, as well as re-directors, which would be a waste of the points.

I can't seem to find a combination of skills which would give me a distinctive advantage, so might just fall back on Poison/ Sniper as the easiest option for disrupting the enemy plans. Even if it's cheesy and not very good, it honestly seems like the one that will get the most mileage for me, due to the enemy either playing into my hands or setting up sub-optimally.

Back on topic, I'm going to be taking some Maneaters to a friendly, slightly competitive tournament this weekend; I wanted to run them to make my army more interesting, and as a counter to the Hellpit Abomination that I've been told will be making an appearance... I figure 6 MEs with BoOPs, Poison and Banner of Eternal Flame will definitely do the trick.

I'm stuck deciding on the secondary ability though. Sniper seems great, as I'll be against Tomb Kings (juicy wizard targets as well as the one wound Casket of Souls keeper), High Elves and Skaven (taking out the BSB seems great if possible).

However I think in light of the Hellpit, people will probably be packing Flaming attacks, which means they might be bringing Fire-ward saves... So I've been contemplating other abilities. Going against the grain, Stubborn seems like a bad choice to me. If a unit of Maneaters is losing combat, with a BSB and Ld9 general nearby, then I expect them to stay, or to take so much damage they're going to die anyway. I expect my guys to win combat against most of the units out there, and if they can't then I've used them wrong. The only things that can blow through them will be Bolt Throwers, a big unit of Silver Helms + Noble w/ Ogreblade, the Hellpit, a Doomwheel, and if they get charged by TK chariots. In every case there will be better targets for them to go after, so I'll probably be doing that [with the exception of the Hellpit, which hopefully will get drilled before it can do anything...]

Other contenders are Scout and Swiftstride, but in both cases I feel too vulnerable. On the one hand, I can Scout, but with the unit costing so much, the enemy will just turn to keep me (and my main battleline) in their front arc, so I gain no real advantage that I can see. On the otherhand I deploy them in my battleline and use Swiftstride to engage quickly, which seems a little better, but opens them up to more enemy shooting and magic, as well as re-directors, which would be a waste of the points.

I can't seem to find a combination of skills which would give me a distinctive advantage, so might just fall back on Poison/ Sniper as the easiest option for disrupting the enemy plans. Even if it's cheesy and not very good, it honestly seems like the one that will get the most mileage for me, due to the enemy either playing into my hands or setting up sub-optimally.

Remember, you don't pick your rules for 'been there, done that' until you are about to deploy them.  It says so in the FAQ.  So you can taylor the needs of your maneaters by game, even in a tournament.

Hmmm, I'd always read that as you have to pick the abilities when making your army list (similar to Lores of Magic), but that you only have to tell your opponent which skills they have once you deploy them.

The actual wording is:

Q: When do you reveal what special rules a unit of Maneaters has
picked for their Been There, Done That special rule?

A: When you deploy them

Which is vague enough that I can see why it could be either of those interpretations...

What's the rest of the Stronghold's opinion on this?

if you could choose after you deploy them, that would be very powerful in an 'open list' environment (I actually want to be wrong on this, because I'll be playing in an 'open list' environment )

What's the rest of the Stronghold's opinion on this?

I've always picked them ahead of time and revealed what they are on deployment.

As awesome as it would be to be able to customize your maneaters each game, I just don't see that interpretation holding water. After all, you can't pick their gear before each game (unless you are Golgfag, of course), why would you be able to pick their skills?

For people wanting a hard rule reading, the maneater entry on pg 42 spells out the process for picking your skills quite clearly.

I've always picked them ahead of time and revealed what they are on deployment.

Same here.

I pick the rules when I make up the list. It seems more fair and I reveal them at deployment as by the FAQ.


Cheers.

Yeah, I pick them when I write my list. I generally see it like Magic Lores, and Golgfag's rules are a bit more specific regarding his magic items, so there's a difference.

I played a three round tournament with some friends this weekend, and I took a six-pack of Maneater Snipers with Poison (and the obligatory brace of Ogre pistols).

I wish I hadn't taken Sniper.

In the first game, I played against an unorthodox High Elf army which had one character in a unit (which Ambushed) and the rest mounted on Eagles or Griffons. Taking Sniper was pointless for this entire game.

In the second round, I faced Skaven- who fielded a Grey Seer + Bell as well as a BSB and three Warplock Engineers. I was practically drooling at the thought of popping an unprotected level two wizard per turn; the BSB had a 1+ save, which meant that whilst I wanted to get him, I would have opted for easier targets to guarantee the kill. The practicality of it? He had his Screaming Bell unit behind a unit of Slaves, which blocked line of sight to everyone bar the Grey Seer and one Engineer. When I had my first turn I put my shots into the Hellpit Abomination, stripped it of its Regen. then dropped an Ironblaster on it (and I didn't need Sniper to target the Hellpit); second turn onwards charging and overrunning through Slaves into the Bell unit was a bigger priority, so they spent the rest of the game in combat (two turns against Slaves thanks to a lucky Insane Courage roll, the rest against the flank of the Unbreakable Bell unit) and no more Sniper options.

Third game, I faced Tomb Kings- again I rubbed my hands with malicious intent, only for him to deploy his unprotected level 4 Heirophant behind a unit of Skeleton Archers instead of in them. as he usually would; the same went for his secondary wizard, a level 2 Liche Priest. This didn't hinder him at all, as most of the spells he was casting had a bubble effect, and ultimately all it did was make it harder for me to get his wizards- he usually doesn't mind having them in his units, whilst knowing about the Pistoleaters actively made him reposition them, which did him some massive favours (until he forgot to move them late game and I caught them with a lucky overrun, but that's another story) Again, I wish I had chosen another ability.

Whilst the games we played were competitive (at least in the sense that we want bragging rights and try to build balanced, non-cheese but still good armies) I think it's fair to say that no one was a top-tier tournament winning general. Which makes it even more frustrating that the Poison/ Sniper combo not only didn't really work, but honestly made some games more difficult.

TL;DR: It often gets said that Sniper/ Poison works against inexperienced players, but even a gamer who has all of 3 games of Fantasy under his belt managed to make it a no-go, once he realised what it could do. You'd have to play against someone with no tactical acumen whatsoever to get shots off on their characters- i.e. he would have to know what you can do and then let you do it which just seems like a bad tactic on your part.

From my (albeit limited experience), I would say that if you want to affect your enemies' character deployment, then fair play, as 95% of the time that's all you'll do with Snipeaters. In most games I think that a unit of Maneaters is better of in combat and doing substantial damage that way. In my next games I'll be taking Scout or Swiftstride instead.

The question I have is: would the skaven or TK players have deployed like that normally? Did the threat of snipers give you an advantage by mucking up his normal deployment?

I believe the Skaven player would have deployed like that anyway; he is a 40K veteran, but new-ish to Fantasy; I noticed he had a preferred set-up for the Bell unit (two units of 20 accompanying the Bell- one on each side) and left himself no room to actually fit them next to his other units on the furthest/ 12" line from his deployment zone. This may be bad planning on his part but I believe he wanted it like that, as he obviously took Slaves to go out front and be roadblocks/ so he could shoot into their combat etc.

The Tomb King player would not have deployed the way he did were it not for the threat of the Pistoleaters. He was taking the named character- (somebody the) Grand Heirophant of Khemri - and a level 2, so neither had ward saves and he was unduly worried by the chance of me taking either of them out in a turn. His altered deployment made it harder for me to get to his wizards, and had them 2"-3" further away from the Hellheart; in previous games he has tended to stick with the plan and deploy his guys in units (ostensibly to stop magic missiles) but it's also meant that I can reach them quicker.

I don't think either case accounted for there being a negative effect on the enemy deployment. The Tomb King player was running a gun-line, with 3 units of 20 Archers, 4 Ushabti Greatbows and 6 Chariots; this meant that he knew the rough shape of his deployment regardless of the opponent or circumstances. He deployed as normal with the exception of placing his wizards 2"-3" behind his units instead of in them and that was all. The Skaven player had a fairly standard deployment as well- two units of Slaves at the 12" line, alongside a unit of Rat Ogres, the Hellpit and Doomwheel; he had a unit of Clanrats indented a few inches, probably at 8" from his back edge, and the Screaming Bell unit with their front rank around 6" from the back.

In neither case did I think their deployment had been unduly 'disrupted' in any way, neither did I think I gained any real advantage from the threat of the Snipers. I was a bit disappointed, as I had always been a proponent of that theory myself (that the psychological factor might be larger and more useful than the practical applications).

EDITED: For grammar.

It might be worth giving it another shot later on. For me I've often lacked good Ironblaster targets in games, just seems to be the armies I fight.

Although I have noticed that Wizards these days don't stay near the front lines - so it'll be BSB's I'll be looking at, which are often well defended. So I am seeing less opportunities these days too...