When to Grapeshot?

I have some games coming up against Lizardmen, Tomb Kings and High Elves as seen here: http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=27333.0

Having recently acquired my first Ironblaster, I've been pondering it's uses.

So, the question is: when would you consider it appropriate to Grapeshot with an Ironblaster (if at all) instead of choosing to shoot 'regular' cannonballs?

- At skirmishers?
- At targets in cover?
- At monsters?
- At lone targets/ characters? (I assume it helps get around LoS due to the volume of shots)
- All or none of the above?

Trying to get some idea of how best to use this new piece in my arsenal, so any thoughts would be appreciated.

Considering that you need to roll to hit with Grapeshot I don't find it that useful. If you're shooting you want to shoot the cannon proper, otherwise you might just be better of charging on in. It's not like the IB is poor in combat.

I will consider grapeshot when

1) far edge of target is <8 inches from the cannon
AND
2a) I couldn't charge
or
2b) Tough 6 or higher target that doesn't get some major advantage on the first round of combat (i.e. impact hits)


I do not grapeshot very often.

I will consider grapeshot when

1) far edge of target is <8 inches from the cannon
AND
2a) I couldn't charge
or
2b) Tough 6 or higher target that doesn't get some major advantage on the first round of combat (i.e. impact hits)

I do not grapeshot very often.

I agree with the above! Also... 1+ AS MC/cav... the impact hit and normal attacks wont make much difference. It may buy you one round of grapeshooting using a sabretooth before you have to charge next round. By my math a grapeshot should give you 1.38 wounds (assuming average of 5 'shots', 5+ to hit (long range, multiple shots) and 2+ to wound).. The Charge against ws3+, T4, 1+AS will give 1.23 wounds and the pleasure of combat where you may lose by static CR.

I dont grape shot often either.

Considering that you need to roll to hit with Grapeshot I don't find it that useful.

Damn... it's been a while since I played 8th, and the last time I used Grapeshot was with a 7th Ed. Empire army- I must have missed the section about rolling to hit with Grapeshot now... I wonder why it doesn't auto-hit any more :S

I've used it on occasion when an enemy unit is too close to use the normal cannon shot reliably.

One game I ran circles around a Shaggoth filling him with that delicious Str10 grapeshot.

Its decent at plinging a couple wounds off a monster or other annoying single model thats too close for the cannon.

My Gorger's tendency to suck up grapeshot like it was water proves there's always moments where you'll want to do it! It's just one of those things - remember you have it and consider it when the situation looks like it could benefit from it.

I last used a grapeshot on a character I was sure had the charmed shield. So if you hit twice you're at least getting a wound off of him. It was a wood elf bsb, got two hits and rather thankfully he failed his charmed  shield roll so i actually killed him.

So for whatever reason you can't hit the character with anything else first and you need to do a few wounds to a character with the charmed shield and you are close enough to grapeshot then you should maybe consider doing it.

I grape shot when I cant charge or shoot the proper cannon ball, or against small units if knights in one rank where you have a chance to kill 10 instead of one (or similar one rank single wound models)

TLK

Grapeshot doesn't take the multishot penalty, but the moving and long-range penalty alone are enough for me to never do it.  Even rotating drops you to hitting on 5s.  Even against high armor, I'd rather take the charge.

Is there a BRB page ref for the 'no multiple shot' -1 to hit when grape shooting? : ) I Must have missed it.

I got grapeshot by an empire cannon with a master engineer - it hurts!.. reroll and +1 bs : )

the multishot penalty has to do when the weapon has the Multishot rule specifically.

So the only penalty for grape shooting would be long range?

So the only penalty for grape shooting would be long range?

Or moving, soft cover, hard cover, skirmishers, certain magic items.....

The Multiple shot penalty is only suffered by weapons with the actual Multiple Shot rule, not something you suffer just for shooting more than 1 shot.

Its why Leadbeltchers are awesome. We do D6 shots, not Multiple Shots(D6)

Its why Leadbeltchers are awesome. We do D6 shots, not Multiple Shots(D6)

Actually, the Leadbelcher guns ARE Multiple Shots (D6) we just specifically get to ignore the penalty for it Now if I could only HIT something with those multiple shots...

Okay, despite the fact that I previously said "Never use grapeshot," I found myself with the 1+, 3++-reroll-1s Chaos BSB on a disc three inches behind my Ironblaster in a tournament a couple of weeks ago.  I turned, shot, hit with 7 of 8 shots, wounded with all of them, and killed the "unkillable" little bugger.  Soooooo, yeah.  Maybe it does have a place.  In the last resort category.

I used it once against the Empire to break the Charmed Shield on his Pegasus Captain threatening my flank. 6 shots, 5 hits, one discarded, 3 wounds makes a dead Captain. Even though reading other stories on the Forum, I was quite impressed by my first Grapeshot!

It is literally one of those things that you never really realise you'll use until the situation's there. Really hurts little nippy dudes, that's for sure.

I'm with greyknight on this, Grapeshot when you can run circles around them. Its both humorous and annoying. We don't get to be both at the same time very often >.>

I about 6 games now using an ironblaster, I have only used grapeshot once. It was against Lizardmen's carnasor with a heavily armored character atop. I think it was a 2+ armor save, and was gonna charge next turn. Took a wound or two off before the close combat.

Grapeshoted a unit of 6 pistoleers the other day. rolled a 10, hit twice, rolled snake eyes to wounds.

Grapeshoted a unit of 6 pistoleers the other day. rolled a 10, hit twice, rolled snake eyes to wounds.

That's about the size of my experiences with Grapeshotting as well!

well i generally don't grapeshot when i can charge, but if i shot it would be to chaffs.

well i generally don't grapeshot when i can charge, but if i shot it would be to chaffs.

... So you never had your ironblaster close in front of a demon prince? : )

d6 S5 impact hits are useless against the T5 W4, perhaps 1+AS and 5++ - at least the grapeshoot can deal a wound or two

I'm with greyknight on this, Grapeshot when you can run circles around them. Its both humorous and annoying. We don't get to be both at the same time very often >.>

Funny, even then I 'm sticking with a pointblank cannonball which worked wonders on inumerable flagellant hordes and a Nurgle Warrior horde among others by flanking them and then blasting them. With all the modifiers factored in (range, cover, skirmishers and whatnot), firing a cannonball when in the target's flank ark (important bit) seems like the more sensible option.
The only time a cannonball fired into the flank failed me was a battle where my Myrmidian Mercs had the choice of grapeshotting or shooting an Black Orc unit's flank. Of course, I rolled a 10'' missing the entire horde...
On the other hand, I too went for grapeshot once just for the fun of it and it netted me a very dead rat. Said rat being a carpet-mounted grey seer with the shadow magnet (instead of a wardsave) was a valuable bonus.

A High Elf player in my local group asked me why he never sees me using Grape Shot in any of the 3 tournaments I've attended now. As soon as I told him Grapeshot rolls to hit, so with the moving penalty meaning I hit on 5s, he understood.

Rolling to hit with Grapeshot was a really bad nerf, on an otherwise underused ability. I understand the need to tone it down from the days when it used a flame template, but needing to hit with it just kills how effective it can be- even if you roll 10 hits, on average you'll only get 5 hits (and conservatively) only 3-4 wounds... which is just bad considering that's the best case scenario with no shooting penalties for cover, moving, skirmishers etc. In essence, the best case scenario is equal to an average cannonball shot 

I like the idea of moving out of somebodies charge arc and using grapeshot, but frankly I'd rather aim for a better target further away so that I can get the most out of the cannon shot. If you're moving around the enemy unit then they pose no threat to the Ironblaster, so I think you should look for better targets unless you'll take a flank charge on another of your units by doing that.

last night I thought I had the perfect chance to grapeshot. a nurgle daemon prince landed next to my 2 iron blasters. he had the charmed shield so no point using a cannon ball. both pivoted to fire at him 3 inches away. unfortunately both misfired. one was destroyed and the other couldn't fire. we both agreed that had both got average results on the arty dice then the following would have occurred...

12 shots is average after discounting misfires.
6 hit but 1st is ignored from the shield so 5 wound.
5+ ward save = 3.333 wounds done.

so he may have survived with everything strictly average but if my luck was slightly above then it would have died.

so all in all there is a place for grapeshot I think.

PS the DP ran amok after my failure to kill it.

last night I thought I had the perfect chance to grapeshot. a nurgle daemon prince landed next to my 2 iron blasters. he had the charmed shield so no point using a cannon ball. both pivoted to fire at him 3 inches away. unfortunately both misfired. one was destroyed and the other couldn't fire. we both agreed that had both got average results on the arty dice then the following would have occurred...

12 shots is average after discounting misfires.
6 hit but 1st is ignored from the shield so 5 wound.
5+ ward save = 3.333 wounds done.

so he may have survived with everything strictly average but if my luck was slightly above then it would have died.

so all in all there is a place for grapeshot I think.

PS the DP ran amok after my failure to kill it.

I feel your pain! Killing that thing in combat is close to impossible for ogres. Even static CR does nothing.
Best option for the DP is shooting - even the puny S2 2d6 magic missile can do a wound or two.

Yeah, there's not really a lot you can do against the Prince in combat - the wound regaining means you can't even rely on the lucky Great Weapon hit. Such a close Grapeshot!

Yeah, there's not really a lot you can do against the Prince in combat - the wound regaining means you can't even rely on the lucky Great Weapon hit. Such a close Grapeshot!

A tyrant with fencers blade and greedy fist is a delight against the DP... You will hit on 4+ (assuming the DP is nuggle) and each hit strips a magic level and the S6 will wound on 3+... then the armor and ward is left. But the whole issue is how to keep him a live. I suggest magic support and glittering robe.

in all fairness we are the only army who should ever even consider grapeshot seeing as we double thier strength of 5. So the topic hasn't really needed to be addressed. No empire player I've met has chosen to grapeshot once you got to their cannons. They were usually satisfied with getting off 1 las cannonball killing 1-2 models and accepting its fate should I ever get there. our cannons are also chariots so they actually make it to the point they can grapeshot should the unlikely scenario arise and even then there are 3 choices
1. Cannonball
2. Charge for impact hits
3. actually grapeshot.
 In my experience we usually resort to the first 2 anyways. I guess it's just one of those rules that's there but generally serves little importance.