Need some advice on my Space Marine & Ork ally list

It's for 2500 points, and it's for an upcoming tournament in my area. I can expect Necron/CSM flyer allies, GK stormraven spam & Dreadknight spam, Eldar/Tau ally and some vanilla marines.
I was a big fan of my Orks, but I am noticing how Orks are losing their competitive edge, so I think some allied help with my Crimson Fists can bring them up.
2500 pts
Chapter Master Pedo Kantor
Terminator Librarian Epistolary (Divination)
10 Sterngaurd Veterans, x3 Combi flamers/Meltas/Plasmas + Power Fist
5 Hammer+Shield Terminators
10 Tactical Marines, with flamer/missile launcher
Same again
10 Tactical Marines with Flamer/Plasma Cannon
5 Sniper Scouts with camo cloaks
Stormraven Gunship, with Hurricane Bolters, Heavy Bolters and Twin Linked Plasma Cannons
Stormraven Gunship with Hurricane Bolters, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, Typhoon Missile Launcher

ORK ALLY
Mega Armoured Warboss with Cybork Body, Attack Squig and Bosspole
6 Meganobz with Kombi-Skorchaz
Battlewagon with 2 Big Shootas, 2 Rokkit Launchas, Zzap Gun, Armour Plates, Grot Riggers, Deff Rolla, Boarding Plank

The general plan would be
1: Pedro and Sterngaurd in the anti-tank Stormraven
2: Librarian and Termies in the anti-Infantry Stormraven
3: Tactical Squads secure objectives
4: Scouts infiltrate and wound Monstrous Creatures, contest objectives
5: Orks zoom forward and roll over stuff. They will also drive close ro transport vehicles to wreck it with the boarding plank.
6: When Stormravens come in, they attempt to destroy enemy tanks/anti-air
7: Men disembark within 12" of each other. Termies assault enemy deathstar and Sterngaurd open fire on any good targets.
7: Sterngaurds assault the deathstar unit if combat is slow
9: Orks disembark and clean up close combat squads
10: Destroy any stragglers and repeat on next matches.
11: Stormravens try and take out enemy flyers also when their units are dismebarked.

I know those are "Perfect World" ideas, but in general, where are my weakness or where I could improve on? I think my lack of Ap1/2 and strong troops might hinder me, but I can always hide my troops and then advance onto objectives.
Thanks for reading!

Ok from the sounds of it, you need more anti vehicle/flier. I am more of a fantasy player but I will offer my thoughts and opinions.
1. First point of call, Pedro? (or Pedo). Why? Sorry but he rarely is worth his points and is more of a luxury item. If you really want to keep him then ok. Does the storm raven have fire points? I don't know but if so then sternguard is fine.
2. Lose the scouts and give one unit of ten a drop ship and give them meltas. This really stings armour on the ground.
3. I would take two anti tank storm ravens.
4. Scouts and infiltration is always a dream situation so they never work really and people tend to put the majority of objectives close to them.

These are just a few small points and feel free to just ignore me:). Different play styles an' all.

I was thinking of only using 1 Primary detachment, freeing up points to buy some ork boyz by getting rid of the 2nd Tactical Squad, and the Scouts.
Also I was thinking of having a bit of anti-everything on my Stormravens.
Something like:
Hurricane Bolters, Typhoon Missile Launcher, Twin-Lascannons
Hurricane Bolters, Twin Multi-Melta, Twin-Assault Cannons
That way, I have 4 S8 rockets each, high strenght anti-tank, good anti-infantry
Any thoughts on this?

Yep I am liking that approach (I am not too certain what you will be against but a mix really helps). These changes are for the better. Aside from the tactical marines switching with orks? This is a personal choice so keep it.

Yea, did some little playtesting in my head, and the Orks can halt close combat squads from destroying the Tacticals, and 30 men are hard to move off an objective.

Its a kinda ironic list, Pedro is the chapter master of the Crimson Fists who were almost wiped out by an Orc waaagh.
Now that is out of the way I think the list is horrible. The main strength of Orcs is numbers, but you are maxing your points in meganobz and a battle wagon. I would take masses of boyz with shooterz so as you advance your laying down a curtain of iron. I'd also let drop the anti-infantry Stormraven in favour of the dakkajet as this might do more for you, never used orcs, but I think its an idea. The libby and termies can just deepstrike in, but then again I'd wouldn't mind seeing them dropped for more orcs.
On the marine side I'd consider a second unit of scouts and then make the tactical squads into a devastator unit to cover the Orc advance with rockets. If you can find the points I'd even include flashgitz.

Good shout on the irony but the rest of your post seems to be opinion. Please I do not want to offend you so don't read this in an aggressive tone. So here it is, it is all down to opinion. In my opinion, orks are exactly what GW designed them for. They are the light relief of 40k (sorry to all y'all ork fan boyz, couldn't resist). I play guard and space marines. With vanilla marines, I have never lost to an ork player, no matter their skill. The same for guard but my marines just wipe the deck with orks. Their vehicles are all terrible and the only benefit of their boyz is they are fearless over ten models. They are best equipped with choppas and pistols as shooty orks are just awful. I have tried it so many times but 30 orks (a hefty investment) armed with shootas firing at over 12 inch range, will hit ten times and wound a MEQ 5 times, killing an average of 2 possibly 3 a turn. Now that is 32-48 points lost for how many points in the shootas? Any army will out shoot them, even nids. Leave the big mobs of ranged orks at home. Dakka jet is good but I think it is beaten by the storm raven, simply due to the flying tankness of the stormraven. It is a flying fortress.

Secondly, drop terminators with storm shields? I am sorry but just no. Storm shield wielding termies are like the most broken thing in 40k barring fliers. They are insane and the strongest unit in the list. That aside I hope all readers had a nice day !

Opinion is what he wanted and I gave it. I think the army is too small with too many toys for the points he is playing at.

Toys? And yes he did want opinion but I was trying to provide a counter argument so he can decide himself. That's why I started by saying it is all opinion.
That's not meant to be a challenge by the way.

I thank you both for your opinions, but I feel that those tactics are what used to be good in 5th ed, but unfortuneately are not good in 6th ed.
I agree on Boyz being good in numbers, however 6th ed was extremelly hard on Boyz. 6th ed wanted something that can outcombat and outshoot other armies to be competitive, however Orks just can't do it anymore. Even my 45 Loota list cant do it. Orks are suffering from internal problems now, they can't rely soley on old tactics to win them games.
Orks need 3 things:
- Better ways of achieving anti-tank weaponry/high AP
- Better main core rules
- Better Special Characters
I cannot stress how bad Ork rules are now. Fearless is near useless when your 30 block will be wiped out in the second round. The Waagh! just sucks now, especially Ghazkul's. Unlike other armies Orks have no rules that benefit each other, rather they have random rules to hinder themselves. I hate it when your Shock Attakk rolls 11 or when your Looted Wagon rolls a 1.
It is a shame to see that Ork core is beaten by every army now. We cant outshoot the cheaper IG, Tyranids swarm better and shoot better and they also beat us in combat. Orks need severe revision on their core for their next codex.
With our last few Erratas, Ork SC just suck. Literally, there is no competitiveness in them, and they are quite pricey for the little they bring.
Because of those reasons I allied with my SM, who have felt the better side of 6th ed, to actually compete in the new tourney scene.I thank both of you for your advice and opinions, and in no way do I challenge you on them, I just feel that Orks should be leff on the shelf for now until they can compete again.

I agree with you there. You can still win with orks but it is an up hill battle. Nids really do beat them in every single way. Especially now that 6th edition brought in the remove from the front rule. Ork players (near me so don't take offence) used to park a unit of 30 behind cover with single guy poking out on an objective. They would all get a cover save and remove models from the back. Now that silliness is gone. I think the main issue with orks is simply what they are. They have a strong core if you just assault but their vehicles are just awful. Combined with their crummy shooting, they are swiftly left completely without support and you have to rely on your boyz. I will say orks can do great if you load up on mobs when fighting tau. Their advanced weaponry means little to these guys, losing scores of models is part of the game. I tried playing orks for years and no matter how well the list was made, unreliability combined with shocking shooting lead to lots of defeats. 6th edition punished cover, trying to push people towards assault.
Anyways, good luck in the up coming games!
Grum

Just need to address some apparent misconceptions about Orks here: Ork Shoota Boyz are probably the best infantry, point-for-point, in the game, due to their solid combat power and GREAT shooting. The maths tell us that a 30-man mob puts out more HITS than a Tactical Squad of the same cost - when on Overwatch, they put out around TRIPLE the hits of that same squad. Ork basic troops outshoot Tacticals and outfight Termies, they are fantastic.

It's not just in the Troops that the greenskins have solid shooting. Lootas have been a staple in Ork lists since the book was released and probably got better in 6th thanks to hull points and snap shots (as they lose out a lot less when snap-shotting compared to other races - stick 'em behind an ADL and go to ground for a 2+ cover save whilst merely halving your shots!). Big Guns provide cheap, high-S shots and are very durable, Deffkoptas and Buggies are mobile enough to get around tank side armour and hit with their S8 rockets about as often as Marines. Dakkajets are awesome, too. Even Nob Bikers, renowned for their combat prowess, effectively tote Heavy Bolters whilst moving 12 inches a turn.

I could go on about the other strengths of Nob Bikers, or how Meganobs love the new AP rules, or how glorious it is to have cheap AV14 Assault Vehicles, but I really just can't sit back and hear that Ork Troops and Ork shooting sucks.

I agree that Shoota Boyz are good, thats why I have taken them 
On the downside, Warbuggies and Deffkoptas just cant make back their points, and they are way too easily shot up. I used to run 2 Wartracks and a Skorcha back in 5th, but in general, they are not the best way to spend points.
Meganobz love it when they see Grey Knights. "Oh your Ap3? SUCK IT NOOB!" Pitty they cant access Cyborks without Grotsnikk.
See, Orks are not bad to play in a friendly game scene, but competitively, they just cant kick with the Big Boyz. Those rules are all nice to see, but they vary from paper to tabletop. Nob bikers look like Uber Cheeze, but when you notice how expensive (money and points) they are, and they die just as easily to power weapons, cracks begin to appear.
I would never say to anyone not to play Orks; they have forgiving rules and good units, but if you want to go comp, wait until 2014 and see what Matt Ward can do with them.

In response to EG Giant tripper. I compare their shooting to Imperial Guard (possibly the best shooting army in the game depending if you are a guard player or not ). I know you think this is unfair comparing them to the big boys but to me, at least, orks are a bit to jumbled. Any bonuses they have a random. They are very good at close combat but now the tyrannids beat them at that easily. Their vehicles are cool but av 10 standard transports? That's like dark elder but without extreme speed and awesome guns. The Av 14 Battle wagon has side armour twelve? Rear armour ten. So in close combat, being an assault vehicle that is where it will be near, it is pretty dead. It can transport twenty. It is a great offensive machine but lacking side and rear armour and it is bs 2. Sure it is cheap but it takes up heavy support option. I know it has similar stats to a leman russ but you can only have 3 below apocalypse compared to 9 russ. So you don't think I am just comparing it to Guard, Nid heavy support will easily destroy this, tau will easily destroy it, space marines will find it hard to destroy before it releases its men. So like I said earlier you can win with them but compared to grey knights, it is a struggle. Until they get their new codex, they just don't compare with other races.

They are very good at close combat but now the tyrannids beat them at that easily.

Actually, Nids struggle to impress in combat that much outside of some of their monstrous creatures and Genestealers, which are purely combat focused and die to bolter fire as easily as Boys whilst costing double the points. Nids, like Orks, are actually quite often looking more to their shooting than combat skills to win games. The ideas of Nids as a combat horde is a thing of the past, in my opinion. Lack of grenades across the board is a big issue for them, especially when they pay the points for high I.

Their vehicles are cool but av 10 standard transports? That's like dark elder but without extreme speed and awesome guns.

Most basic transports are struggling to boast more than 32 armour all round and almost all of them crumple when so much as looked at by reasonably heavy weapons. You don't take them as armoured boxes any more, you take them to get your troops where you want them to fast and Trukks accomplish this just fine whilst having the benefit of being open-topped and having a slightly higher capacity than others of their ilk. Don't forget, they are still Fast, too.

The Av 14 Battle wagon has side armour twelve? Rear armour ten. So in close combat, being an assault vehicle that is where it will be near, it is pretty dead. It can transport twenty. It is a great offensive machine but lacking side and rear armour and it is bs 2. Sure it is cheap but it takes up heavy support option. I know it has similar stats to a leman russ but you can only have 3 below apocalypse compared to 9 russ.

The BW's rear armour rarely comes into it, for two reasons: if you're using it as an assault vehicle, nearby enemy troops capable of engaging with it will either be suffering from a distinct case of not-living syndrome or will be concerned with potentially contracting it from whatever unit got out. The other use for it is as a Loota bunker, sat at the back, so it can only be hit on the front and side (whilst also benefiting from whatever cover you've got and a bunch of Meks inside patching it up). The BS is shoddy, but that's not what you take it for - it is a good idea to buy cheap Big Shootas to absorb Weapon Destroyed results though. You can also field a full FIVE of them without ever having to touch your heavy support slots as they can also be taken as dedicated transports for Nobs, two squads of which can be taken as troops thanks to Warbosses. Some of the best lists of 5th featured 8 of these hurtling towards the enemy with Deffrollas as there's just no way you can take that many down before they hit you.

Fair points and I am sorry as I did not know that they can be dedicated transports.

Actually, Nids struggle to impress in combat that much outside of some of their monstrous creatures and Genestealers, which are purely combat focused and die to bolter fire as easily as Boys whilst costing double the points. Nids, like Orks, are actually quite often looking more to their shooting than combat skills to win games. The ideas of Nids as a combat horde is a thing of the past, in my opinion. Lack of grenades across the board is a big issue for them, especially when they pay the points for high I.

This was my point. Nids beat the orks at shooting because of their awesome shooting and monstrous creatures with their great saves. Never minding the termagant spewing tervigon, nid shooting is so good for little points. Plus if you are now arguing orks should stick to shooting (which they viably can, I know) then they are now competing with tau and guard. I don't know if you are a nid player but tanks are easliy chewed up. Orks have a real lack of ap weapons so those monstrous creatures roam freely. The swarms of little guys are just fodder and will kill most units in close combat due to numbers. Plus normal hormagaunt also has re roll ones and furious charge (with the adrenal glands). Also you don't have to go for stealers, what about warriors, another nid troop choice? They can have rending claws and some nasty shooting combined with good armour. So now a loota gun line, meet trygon or mawlock. Trygon pops up, fires its spines then gets blown up by your lootas. What is left is a big trygon hole now teeming with nids. Rear amour ten means that those guys with furious charge can now blow your big heavy tank. Mawlock (can't remember how you spell it), large blast destruction when it arrives possibly taking out two or hurting two. New barrage weapons for all armies. No centre hole stuff so now full strength large blasts hitting side armour. Sorry to quote you the rules but just a point.

Most basic transports are struggling to boast more than 32 armour all round and almost all of them crumple when so much as looked at by reasonably heavy weapons. You don't take them as armoured boxes any more, you take them to get your troops where you want them to fast and Trukks accomplish this just fine whilst having the benefit of being open-topped and having a slightly higher capacity than others of their ilk. Don't forget, they are still Fast, too.

Yeah ok so 32 total. Still eleven front stops it from being glanced to death by bolter equivalents. Open topped makes them great assault vehicles but makes it more likely that they get blown up. So like I said, DE but worse which is fine as they are cheaper. The horde tactic just works for orks. You can spam guns or assault but in the end, hordes work best. I still think they can be played competitively, like you keep stressing but for beginnners who don't know how or others not familial with orks, it is a difficult endeavour. Their buggies and other silt are just too lightly armoured. To me (at the VERY least), orks are a thing of the past and if you invited me to a game and told me you played orks, I would be very happy. They just don't play well. Also if you need to but a truck load of vehicles to play an army, it is not worth it.

I would be hard-pressed to say that Nid shooting is outright better than Ork shooting or that if it is, that it makes up for the generally better combat prowess of the Orks. I don't think I would ever advocate pure Ork shooting as then, as you say, they tread upon the toes of Guard and Tau and simply can't compete in that respect, but what greenskins are very good at doing are taking out/diminishing key targets with high-S, high-volume shots before mopping up in combat. Those MCs you mention might not be having their saves outright ignored a lot of the time (Unless they're engaged by the myriad 'hidden' Klaws throughout many an army or are unfortunate enough to encounter a biker Boss), but they'll certainly be sweat-dropping when a 10-man squad of Lootas alone is forcing them to take around 6 saves per turn. I also have to question how well your little guys will be doing when faced with their opposite number - 30 Hormies set against 30 Boys will, if the latter gets a single turn of shooting, be losing probably around 20 guys before hitting combat, without taking cover into account. Warriors probably do better, but they are still ultimately overwhelmed by Shootas, Klaws and AP4 shooting. Deep-striking MCs can admittedly be an issue for back-fielders and I think it's one of the few strengths the Nids probably have over the Orks but even then it's not a perfect strategy - you have very little say over when a Trygon and his pals turn up and if the latter arrive before or even on the same turn as the former, it's tough luck.

I wouldn't necessarily say Orks are challenging, just different. Simply marching 3-4 mobs of 30 Shootas across the board is often very effective and not challenging at all! No, they're different inasmuch that they have no perfect units in a sense. You play Space Marines and your units and weaponry tends to have specific roles - your Lascannons are your anti-tank, your Plasma is what you use for Terminators and Bolters are good for light infantry. Orks merely have decent units, slightly let down by low BS, low AP, low saves etc, but they get an awful lot of it. Instead of necessarily picking the right tool for the job, Orks just throw lots and lots of shots and attacks at targets and watch them get overwhelmed. Many armies are going to turn their noses up at BS2 AP4 heavy weapons, but when you can pack 20 of them for a tidy 300pts there's a lot of monsters and vehicles out there that have to tread carefully. Shoota Boys boast appalling saves and BS yet they out-perform most units in the entire game!

In response to you saying that you bank on a single trygon for your reserves and should the trygon(s) be held longer than the rest, your ballsed. So that is why you take 2. So statistically you get one in a turn. Also if you don't want to field two, it is not the end of the world as there are plenty more options. If you take a lictor, I believe reserves get a plus one? So a 2 plus chance that your trygon turns up. What about the pods nids can have? Swarmlord and carnies also on your door step anyone?

I wouldn't necessarily say Orks are challenging, just different. Simply marching 3-4 mobs of 30 Shootas across the board is often very effective and not challenging at all!

Alright I will give you that, they are easy to simply push forward. I would argue down the route that the more tactically challenging an army, the greater it's potential, nod to DE there. Plus your scenario of orks shooting at tyrannids is off. Without cover and within rapid fire range, you will kill 13.3 recurring nids, not 20, I assume you mean over watch as well and the deaths become 17. So now lets reverse the tables. Squad of hormaguants with basic weaponry is shooting at your orks. They are within twelve but they are assault 1 so within 12" only brings them into range. An advantage over them I hear you cry, yes you may have that although they cost 1 point less and with that point you can buy an 18" version with no ap. So anyway they fire 30 shots becomes 15. They kill 10. Now as your weapons would have rapid fired (and your models still cost one more point) you would not be able to assault. The nids however do. So 30 assault you and you have 40 over watches, presuming you had 30 orks. Those 40 over watches become 6.6 hits. That in turn becomes 4.4, so 4 casualties. Termagants strike first. 52 attacks become 26 hits. 26 hits become 8.6, so 9 wounds. 9 wounds become 7 kills. 13 orks with shootas strike back. 26 attacks become 17. 17 becomes 9 wounds. that 9 becomes 7 kills. Orks number 13, nids 18. Orks would probably win combat. So they do better than shooty nids I will give you that. By shooty, I mean Termagants. Now lets look at the big boys, the monstrous creatures you were talking about and the lootas...

As for your loota scenario. 15 lootas get lets loose 30 shots, 10 hit. Then 7 wound (vs a carnifex). Carnifex saves 4. Carnifex still standing. Throw regeneration on him and it will take another round of loota shooting (These are the only two units on the board, no cover nada). So he is dead and good. That took two rounds of shooting for 160 points from a 225 point unit (the carnifex doesn't have regen, but it still takes more). I said these are the only two units so we don't get silly things like "Yeah I would then finish it with a squad of grey knights I am allied with" no nonsense like that. So to make the carnie cost the same, we slap on regen, brain leech worms and strangle thorn. Still five points less. Assuming you go first. Carnifex is on 2 wounds (regened one). He now fires. The strangle thorn is large blast so can we say it hits half the fifteen. It could hit more but I think this is a fair representation. It kills 6. The devourers fire twelve, this becomes 6 with bs3 and then 9 with twin linked. These kill 8. Your lootas now are down to a model. Now even if the large blast only hit three instead of seven (the minimum models to keep the unit spread out), you would still be looking at a moral check and would statisticaly fail. The devourers, with brain leeches lowers moral by one. You loota runs away and the carnifex has two wounds and can regen more. I am not afraid of your lootas. That carnifex loadout is also good against your vechicles, killing most things under the battle wagon.

Well my friend, while I have enjoyed this debate, I think we must leave it here (or the very least I am). You think orks are great and I would beg to differ. You think they are better than nids and of course, I do not. So I hate ending this war, it is consuming time and it is evident we will not change one anothers opinion. I wish you all the best and this is all I could manage for a hand shaking emoticon,
 
Grum

Wow, this thread is big. With all of the above being said, I must say that it is my opinion (As an experienced ork player) that ork armies need to be big. 2 mobs of 30 boyz should be your first 2 troops choices. Then a big mek with KFF or warboss. Its just too easy to shoot up a battlewagon and then spray the meganobz with plasma. Also, Orks are not meant to be an ally in my humble opinion.
1. MOAR BOYZ!
2. Don't try to make a deathstar. Leave that to Fantasy.
3. If you're going to use orks, use them exclusively. Their effectiveness is reduced greatly in low numbers.
4. For AA, look no further than lootas. Sure they don't have skyfire, but the difference isn't huge with BS2 as a base.
5. For AT, hit them with power klaws. That's how orks kill vehicles.

Swarmlord and carnies also on your door step anyone?

I don't think swarmie can get a spore. Also, carnifexes are crap. Anything they can do, a trygon can do better. More attacks, better WS, More wounds, not a lot more expensive.
Hope that helps

Cheers, Bonegut

I agree with you there, and I too felt that Orks should not be an ally because of them being both a hinderence and hindered. That is usually how I play when I play Orks exclusively and although it is nice to have a 5+ cover save, I still fail about 80% of them.
But thats just it. Orks have a load of gimmickey rules that don't make their odds better at all, whereas the meta now demands such things. A power klaw to a vehicle is nice when done, but you have 4 main problems with that
1: Blasts before you get there
2: Retalliation afterwards
3: Precision Strikes
4: Challenges
With all those, you are very lucky to get anywhere near the vehicle you want dead.
Lootas are good, but they struggle as they are always shot at with flamers, and enemy flyers usually have their pay-load dropped before these guys can hit them.
This week I am getting in my last few practice games before the tournament. I'm using the list above 3 times, and a list with some Lootas in it. Which ever fares the best, will be used at the tournie.
Thanks for all the help, and I will post results of the games when I have them.
On a side note, the Swarmlord cannot ride in a Myscetic Spore, he would be way too good if he could.
There are however, instances where Carnifexes are better, in Strenght, Base Size and Upgrades. Trygons look cooler though. Mawlocs seem to be the clear winner of Horde Wacking.