WoC Troubles

Jimmy, get your wins in early and hope he doesn't read any forums...its pretty obvious how good the DP and Chimerae are though.  We have a solid book, theirs blows ours out of the water.  If we had some type of big flyer to counter theirs we might stand more of a chance, as it is they dance circles around our units and get to pick the combats they want with their bigs, and then pile in with chariots and warriors (who can stand on their own if needed, a kitted out chaos warrior is more than a match for a bull or an irongut, and costs a fraction of the points.)

My regular opponent is my brother, and he has no mercy with his WoC, I hope you were nice to yours in your youth, otherwise his revenge may be quite sweet.

We have a solid book, theirs blows ours out of the water.

No, it is just that they have one over-effective build and that is it (I am sure there are others but this is the most common).

Act nasty in return and load up on hellheart, cannons, chaff, and allocation lord/heroes with defense and CoC.

Personally I would use Grut's on a SM (getting off spells on +6/7 helps), Hellheart on a FB (thy need fireball too), and leave regular Ogres, Mournfangs, and any big gribbley at home. Load up on Ironguts, Maneaters, cats, a few gnoblar drops, characters, cannons, and small LB units to remove his chaff.

I would agree with most of that - WoC doesn't like being shot at, and Ogres are pretty good at shooting in 8e. Leadbelchers and Maneaters will be the implements of choice as opposed to Mournfangs (which can get blockaded and eliminated by his beefy monsters), and double Ironblaster is a must. The Hellheart will be very hit-or-miss - if you can get a good miscast result (read: Power Drain or Dimensional Cascade), it might swing that game, but the odds on that aren't great.

Also great bait if he decides to charge them with Warriors... flee then rally and shoot him in the face!

I thought a unit that rally's is not alowwed to shoot that turn?

Unless they're Fast Cav, you're right, nells.

Also, Leadies are slow to fire, no standing and shooting either. It's easy to forget for some reason, since they took away the whole 'Die miserably on a misfire' I keep thinking the gun can do anything.

I'd prefer ironguts to lead belchers against WoC. the 1+ AS is simply too much for S4 AP shooting with the high movement of knights and juggers. The same goes for fangs, sadly.


It will be an uphill battle but it can be done - Shadowlord's army layout has worked (somewhat) for me..

You're not choosing between IGs and Leadies - you're taking both. Leadbelchers will pelt the foot troops, clean out any pesky chaff, and help the Ironblasters threaten the monsters (especially with a Flaming Sword of Rhuin thrown in for spice), and then the IGs will take on the tin cans.

The key takeaway here is that you're going to need to be multi-dimensional to really hang with Chaos - just running a "RAWR SMASH!" list won't work, because they're better at it than Ogres are.

I would agree with most of thhe Hellheart will be very hit-or-miss - if you can get a good miscast result (read: Power Drain or Dimensional Cascade), it might swing that game, but the odds on that aren't great.

Yes but it is a threat the opponent will not sniff at and laugh off, if his game is magic heavy or has a spellcaster general like a Nurgle DP who usually joins the fray. A slight chance is a slight chance...

You're not choosing between IGs and Leadies - you're taking both. Leadbelchers will pelt the foot troops, clean out any pesky chaff, and help the Ironblasters threaten the monsters (especially with a Flaming Sword of Rhuin thrown in for spice), and then the IGs will take on the tin cans.

The key takeaway here is that you're going to need to be multi-dimensional to really hang with Chaos - just running a "RAWR SMASH!" list won't work, because they're better at it than Ogres are.

Indeed!

There are builds in our book that can do in-ya-face well but Deathstar guts and allocation forcing chars in horde is easy to divert, and is quite a juicy target for stuff like good old Purple Sun. And Warriors have more options for a ground n' pound match, which they will win most of the time.

I tend to play my Ogres vs WoC like I use to play my Empire - remove the movement dictators with fire power, and use my own movement dictators to full effect. Chimeras and better chariots have made it harder, but we have access to firebellies, super cheap chaff and drops, and what I have found crucial -> Leadbelchers, one of the most flexible shooters in the game.

Of course Ironguts pumped up with great offensive Maw magic ain't too shabby either.

So you guys really think it would be better to leave the MFC at home?  Even though they are arguably the 2nd best MCav in the game?  I have to admit that if they don't get a charge off they are very lackluster....and they have rarely performed as good for me as I think they should.

I may have to try it next game.

If you really want to run the MFC, try 3 units of 2? Odd, but given the damage they can do even in pairs they could chew through certain chaff units, counter charge, and even be a sacrificial hold-up - those Warriors only have a 4+ armour save. The impact hits alone will kill a couple, they'd probably kill a chariot, and if you get into a flank you could do a lot of damage to a warrior unit.

Plus, you could slap the flaming banner on one of them. Leave your opponent guessing. Until the Chimeras find out the hard way which unit it was (you'll have to note a defining feature for each MFC pair and mark which one has the flaming banner mind, just to prove you're not cheating. Your opponent probably won't accuse you but it's a good habit to get into when you're running multiple identical units).

Just some random thoughts though, it's late where I am and I'm half asleep...

So you guys really think it would be better to leave the MFC at home?  Even though they are arguably the 2nd best MCav in the game?

Yes I do, because with the new WoC book the good targets like lots of marauders are not that common anymore. And the chimeras and other fast moving units are trimming down good charge oppertunities.

If you want to run little units of MFC like just 2 of them please compare them to a single Rinox Rider.

2 MFC with heavy armor and iron first  OR 1 Rinox Rider Champion with Heavy armor and a brace of pistols.

I mean if he is going to bring the stinky cheese why not you?

Because you can legitimately refuse to play against Rhinox Riders, whereas all his stuff is in his book.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Forgeworld, but I don't like to see it as something to use in desperation for a win. His list is extraordinarily cheesy and would no doubt do well at tournaments, but it's best to stick to the books until you feel capable of doing well without the FW stuff. Then you can include it for funsies.

And as to what's legal and not from FW, that's a discussion that'll carry no weight regardless of what's said here. It's ultimately down to the players.

Big Juan runs the two pairs of two MFC thing a lot, both in MSU and normal lists.  You may want to PM him to get his advice and views on that setup.  He has had the most success with MFC out of anyone I know.

Personally, I stopped taking MFC about a month or two into the new book, outside of casual lists.  Ogres are a mid to high tier army, so you tend to face a lot more of that caliber of opposition in tournaments.  This means things generally either have armor saves or hit with great weapons (usually some combination of the two), often before the MFC get to swing, so you are looking at doling out some impact hits and then getting munched before you even get to pick up dice.  The low T/S/AS units that do get played either end up being mind razored or they generate so many wounds (often AP) that you still get ground up.  Or worse, its the slave train of pain that absorbs the charge and calmy passes its LD10 test, letting you get counter charged immediately afterward.

There are also a greater abundance of mobile monsters that can shrug off the unit (if not outright kill it) when they force the engagement.  Soul Grinders (especially the Slaanesh and Nurgle variety),  the already mentioned Chaos lord options, Hellpit Abominations, Chimarae, HE Frost Phoenixes, Steam Tanks, Gorebeast Chariots, Keeper of Secrets, Stegadons, and Terrorgiests are all things you can expect to face regularly in the bracket Ogres tend to end up in.  Maneaters, with their great ranged and combat utility (and often built in stubborn) are much better at contending with those sorts of threats.

Edit-  I do think there is a place for small units with great weapons as dedicated wound generators against monsters.  This is especially true if you do not have the Flame Banner elsewhere in the army.

Oh I agree psychichobo. But at the same time you can legitimately refuse to play against a list that filthy be it from the book or not. This whole thing sounded like a hey lets bring the grossest filth we can scenario. Anyone that would consistently faceroll me with a list that filthy and then call foul when I bring one unit from a fairly legit source like FW would probably not see another game with me. Win or lose both sides of the table are suppose to have fun.....unless it's a tournament I suppose then forget everything I've said so far. I stand by Leadbelchers though.

This has derailed slightly....

I don't think he would whine about me bringing Rhinox Riders, I just know for a fact I am not gonna invest that kind of money into this hobby.  I got my ogres via an army swap, so I didn't really get to choose what I got.  I'm gonna proxy some Maneaters (not gonna pay anywhere near that for GW models) and cut down the MFC to maybe a single unit of 2. 

I don't really blame my opponent for the list he brings, he went out and bought 2 Chimera right when the new book was released, and has had Belakor for years and never really got to use him.  He also paid a pretty penny for a couple boxes of SKs. 

I haven't heard to too many players refusing to use "the good stuff" from their book, I think my main complaint may be that everything in the new WoC book falls into that category. 

After playing with Beastmen for a few years where everything in the book is terrible, overcosted or both, it is frustrating to see such a freight train book like what WoC got and knowing its gonna be around for a long time.

Warriors are always going to be a tough army, especially in combat.  They are also almost always going to be slow moving and low numbers.  If you can dominate the movement phase and keep constant pressure on a warrior player in the shooting phase, you will do a lot better against them.  Ogres are faster moving, generally, but they do not typically have a lot of bodies on the table, so I think ultimately you need to ramp things up in the shooting phase a bit.  Ironblasters to shave wounds off of the prince and poison pistol maneaters with the flaming banner to down chimera might be something to try.

WoC should be a hard match up for us no doubt. Monster on monster action and they have the will of 4 Chaos Gods to our 1 Maw to help them out (cheaters). We're still better looking though... hurr hurr hurr

I ran some numbers and I think scouting poison maneaters will make a huge difference in this matchup.

Deploy them 12" behind the DP and they will get a few chances to shoot. With 1-2 turns of 12 poison shots plus a cannon shot each turn and I think its toast.

I'll try this out in my WoC rematch soon and report.