First 2500 point list

ellisk 22 Apr 2013

Hi,

Im a totally new ogre player but long time beastmen player and this is my first list.
all opinions welcome

slaughtermster w/ level4, ,fencers blades, glitter scales, talisman of preservation = 385

bruiser w/ bsb, h.arour, enchanted shield, talisman of endurance = 180

firebelly w/ level 2, ironcurse icon, dispel scroll, talisman of protection =210

2 ironblaster = 340

2 sabretusks = 42

12 ironguts w/ command and standard of discipline = 561

3 mornfang calavary w/ ironfsts, h armor, flaming banner ,sb musi = 240

6 maneaters w/ sb, musi, brace of pistols, sniper, poison = 356

20 gnoblers w/ trappers, musi sb = 95

20 gnoblers w/ tarppers, musi, sb = 95

mcsheehy 24 Apr 2013

Hey welcome!

Ok so Ill start off

Firebelly - Staff of Sorcery? I cannot find this in the BrB

did you mean channelling staff?

Anyway on to the list

The big block of ogres yes it works, but I would rather run a unit of Iron guts AND ogres at this points level.
Iron guts are your hammer while ogres are your anvil!

Changes I would make -

Drop warbanner on the ME's.
Flaming banner on the MFC
Drop scrappie for another Iron Blaster.
Slaughter Master, I would take Gruts sickle + Crown of command (he will usually get a 4++ from troll guts anyway) besides he is T5 with W5 and regenerates wounds every cast!?

Firebelly I would give a dispel Scroll.
Drop some Ogres (or all) for Iron guts.

Reasons for changes -
warbanner is going to be next to useless the unit of 3 ME's will have scout and Stubborn? to make use of their flank charging ability? otherwise if they charge the front of something they will just be throw away points, and a lot at that.
As for your MFC they are better off with the 2+ save and parry that iron fists provide them, the majority of attacks are already S5! better making them more survivable!

I would also drop the Flaming banner on them instead of the +1M just for any regen units your run into.
The scrappie looks good on paper but is actually rather poor unless your shooting at hoards of TK skeles or goblins. Other than that it wont do hellish much.
The changes I have suggested for your SM takes away some survival, but he is tough as nails already, and allow him to cast like a level 7! +7 to cast is nothing to sniff at! Also giving him the stubborn crown will make your unit all the harder to shift. Especially if you take the "all eggs in one basket" approach.
Like I say I cannot find the staff of sorcery, maybe I missed it. But in my experience the Dispel Scroll is handy to have and can get you out of a sticky wicket! Ie - Purple sun!

As for your ogres you've opted for the "all eggs in one basket" approach and yes! it does work! But not against all armies as I found out against orcs + gobbs

I find iron guts better in general and would take them any day over ogres, however they both have their uses!

Chris

(8th Edition Rules)
W |L|D
25|3|1

ellisk 25 Apr 2013

Hey welcome!

Ok so Ill start off
Firebelly - Staff of Sorcery? I cannot find this in the BrB
did you mean channelling staff?

Anyway on to the list
The big block of ogres yes it works, but I would rather run a unit of Iron guts AND ogres at this points level.
Iron guts are your hammer while ogres are your anvil!

Changes I would make -

Drop warbanner on the ME's.
Flaming banner on the MFC
Drop scrappie for another Iron Blaster.
Slaughter Master, I would take Gruts sickle + Crown of command (he will usually get a 4++ from troll guts anyway) besides he is T5 with W5 and regenerates wounds every cast!?
Firebelly I would give a dispel Scroll.
Drop some Ogres (or all) for Iron guts.

Reasons for changes -
warbanner is going to be next to useless the unit of 3 ME's will have scout and Stubborn? to make use of their flank charging ability? otherwise if they charge the front of something they will just be throw away points, and a lot at that.
As for your MFC they are better off with the 2+ save and parry that iron fists provide them, the majority of attacks are already S5! better making them more survivable!
I would also drop the Flaming banner on them instead of the +1M just for any regen units your run into.
The scrappie looks good on paper but is actually rather poor unless your shooting at hoards of TK skeles or goblins. Other than that it wont do hellish much.
The changes I have suggested for your SM takes away some survival, but he is tough as nails already, and allow him to cast like a level 7! +7 to cast is nothing to sniff at! Also giving him the stubborn crown will make your unit all the harder to shift. Especially if you take the "all eggs in one basket" approach.
Like I say I cannot find the staff of sorcery, maybe I missed it. But in my experience the Dispel Scroll is handy to have and can get you out of a sticky wicket! Ie - Purple sun!
As for your ogres you've opted for the "all eggs in one basket" approach and yes! it does work! But not against all armies as I found out against orcs + gobbs I find iron guts better in general and would take them any day over ogres, however they both have their uses!

Chris

Thanks so much for your detailed post,

i have posted a new list with some of your changes, but i have left the SM the same just because i have seen him go to town with that build, but everything else i have changed as per your suggestions

mcsheehy 25 Apr 2013

List is looking good

Yes I know what your mean about the SM build, I just never needed to be more survivable with the 4++ from guts

In all honesty you could lose the enchanted shield for AoD, most people hitting your bruiser will nullify that +2AS anyway so replacing it with AoD gives him another 4++.

Another option is you could always drop 5 gnoblars and heavy armour on your ME's and give them poison, sniper, brace of pistols. Which allows you to snipe BsB's etc

3 ME's wont be too much use in most games and just throw away points with great weapons, even if you give them scout + stubborn/swiftstride chances are your opponent will turn to face such a small unit instead of trying to run. If you get a flank/rear they will do well. But opponents would rather face them than run and expose a rear charge. Just my 2 cents on that. I believe the brace of pistols + poison could offer you more utility

Chris

(8th Edition Rules)
W |L|D
25|3|1

Ispa 25 Apr 2013

Hey welcome!

Ok so Ill start off
Firebelly - Staff of Sorcery? I cannot find this in the BrB
did you mean channelling staff?

Staff of sorcery is an item added in the errata.

35 pts arcane item adds +1 to dispel attempts

So not worth taking IMO dispel scroll or hellheart all the way

Those who live by the sword, get shot by those who don't.

mcsheehy 25 Apr 2013

Thank you ispa must have over looked that one, or just forgot because it was so rubbish

Chris

(8th Edition Rules)
W |L|D
25|3|1

Gorgram Bonecrusher 26 Apr 2013

Something to point out. Your list is serveral points short of the 25% core requirement

8th Ed Record
Ogres: P23 W15 D2 L6

mcsheehy 26 Apr 2013

Gorgram is correct you are 6.5pts short in core!

Throw in a standard of discipline in there and your sorted

On the guts I mean

Chris

(8th Edition Rules)
W |L|D
25|3|1

ellisk 26 Apr 2013

Something to point out. Your list is serveral points short of the 25% core requirement

well spotted

thanks for the heads up

ellisk 26 Apr 2013

List is looking good
Yes I know what your mean about the SM build, I just never needed to be more survivable with the 4++ from guts
In all honesty you could lose the enchanted shield for AoD, most people hitting your bruiser will nullify that +2AS anyway so replacing it with AoD gives him another 4++.

Another option is you could always drop 5 gnoblars and heavy armour on your ME's and give them poison, sniper, brace of pistols. Which allows you to snipe BsB's etc 3 ME's wont be too much use in most games and just throw away points with great weapons, even if you give them scout + stubborn/swiftstride chances are your opponent will turn to face such a small unit instead of trying to run. If you get a flank/rear they will do well. But opponents would rather face them than run and expose a rear charge. Just my 2 cents on that. I believe the brace of pistols + poison could offer you more utility

Chris

forgive me if im being really dumb, but would vanguard be a viable option with poison or is sniper really the way to go?

mcsheehy 26 Apr 2013

You can use vanguard. Its just a little more difficult to use and a little less valuable than BS4 ME's being able to snipe a BsB or a Warlord out of a unit!

Bear in mind they are not entitled to a LoS roll against your Sniper shot

So my group of 10 ME's with Sniper/poison brace of pistols at long range are going to hit on 6s' (which also auto wounds thanks to poison)
So roll my 20 dice against my opponents BsB with 5+ armour save (yes I know... just an example)
So on average 4 will hit + wound -2 to AS meaning you've just killed his BsB on turn 1

Vanguard, poison pistoleaters shooting long range 5's to hit, 4-5 will hit, S4 on T4 unit wounding twice on RnF. The poison is what makes pistoleaters viable

Also don't forget BoP counts as AHW in combat.
That's just some very rough math hammer, but it gives you the idea.

If you are going for melee variant ME's id suggest taking 6-8 with scout and stubborn. Meaning you will cause your opponent problems on T1! He has to change his entire battle plan and you will more than likely charge something when you are able.
It depends on how you want to run them, but I like the utility of Poison Pistoleaters in taking out high value targets

Also works wonders on monsters since T doesn't effect poison

Chris

(8th Edition Rules)
W |L|D
25|3|1

ellisk 27 Apr 2013

You can use vanguard. Its just a little more difficult to use and a little less valuable than BS4 ME's being able to snipe a BsB or a Warlord out of a unit! Bear in mind they are not entitled to a LoS roll against your Sniper shot

So my group of 10 ME's with Sniper/poison brace of pistols at long range are going to hit on 6s' (which also auto wounds thanks to poison)
So roll my 20 dice against my opponents BsB with 5+ armour save (yes I know... just an example)
So on average 4 will hit + wound -2 to AS meaning you've just killed his BsB on turn 1

Vanguard, poison pistoleaters shooting long range 5's to hit, 4-5 will hit, S4 on T4 unit wounding twice on RnF. The poison is what makes pistoleaters viable Also don't forget BoP counts as AHW in combat.
That's just some very rough math hammer, but it gives you the idea.

If you are going for melee variant ME's id suggest taking 6-8 with scout and stubborn. Meaning you will cause your opponent problems on T1! He has to change his entire battle plan and you will more than likely charge something when you are able.
It depends on how you want to run them, but I like the utility of Poison Pistoleaters in taking out high value targets Also works wonders on monsters since T doesn't effect poison

Chris

Thanks for clearing that up! Do you think 3 ME's are enough or should I drop stuff to get more? Also do you think 3 mornfang are enough? I'm sure they are I just don't have experience in playing them

mcsheehy 27 Apr 2013

Generally as a rule of thumb I run 8-10 Poison Pistoleaters meaning I can kill a 3 wound character every turn on averages.
For combat I like to run 6. 2x3 formation. 1st row with AHW and 2nd with GW's

3 Is a good amount in <1500pts. It is enough to mess with the enemies plans and do some decent damage in the rear/flank. Also it will pretty much ensure a war machine kill every turn.
Also if that's your intention of hunting warmachines I would give them Brace of pistols, Sniper, Scout.

That way you get 6 shots a turn and can target the crew hitting on 4's (you are within 12" with scout right?)
You just deploy them very aggressively and move through all his Warmachines

They usualy have a crew of 3 with no AS T3! so easy pickings for your ME's

So in short yes the unit is a little small for my liking, however it can still be workable in a role as above.
As for MFC yes 3 is plenty

Generally if you were going to drop something I would lose the Leadies. Sure they fire off a lot of shots each turn but the ME's are going to be sniping high value targets. Also if you need to get rid of chaff the ME's can each individually target a different unit with the sniper rule

something to bear in mind

But it comes down to how you want to play, As a unit of 3 I would only recommend them for war machine hunting, however they will probably get killed T2 or 3.

Chris

(8th Edition Rules)
W |L|D
25|3|1

ellisk 27 Apr 2013

Generally as a rule of thumb I run 8-10 Poison Pistoleaters meaning I can kill a 3 wound character every turn on averages.
For combat I like to run 6. 2x3 formation. 1st row with AHW and 2nd with GW's
3 Is a good amount in <1500pts. It is enough to mess with the enemies plans and do some decent damage in the rear/flank. Also it will pretty much ensure a war machine kill every turn.
Also if that's your intention of hunting warmachines I would give them Brace of pistols, Sniper, Scout.

That way you get 6 shots a turn and can target the crew hitting on 4's (you are within 12" with scout right?)
You just deploy them very aggressively and move through all his Warmachines
They usualy have a crew of 3 with no AS T3! so easy pickings for your ME's

So in short yes the unit is a little small for my liking, however it can still be workable in a role as above.
As for MFC yes 3 is plenty

Generally if you were going to drop something I would lose the Leadies. Sure they fire off a lot of shots each turn but the ME's are going to be sniping high value targets. Also if you need to get rid of chaff the ME's can each individually target a different unit with the sniper rule something to bear in mind
But it comes down to how you want to play, As a unit of 3 I would only recommend them for war machine hunting, however they will probably get killed T2 or 3.

Chris

Thanks so much for this help! ive updated the main post, i think its not looking too shabby now

mcsheehy 27 Apr 2013

Looking good, just curious though. Why not 2 units of 20 gnoblars?

Chris

(8th Edition Rules)
W |L|D
25|3|1

ellisk 27 Apr 2013

Looking good, just curious though. Why not 2 units of 20 gnoblars?

Chris

Purely because i wanted something steadfast but felt 40 was too much, do you think it would work better 2 units of 20

the other thing is i dont really have any ranged shooting apart from the ironblasters could that be a problem?

and can the wizard use gruts sickle to take wounds from himself? or does it have to be the unit

Joakim 27 Apr 2013

Sickle deals 1 wound to the unit, the the SM.

20 gnoblars wont be steadfast for long but 40 will : ) I'd go for 40 if you aim for steadfast. alternative go for 4x 10 for redirection but they take alot of space in the deployment and can cause mass-panic!

For man eaters with posion/snipe - I try only use them for shooting at no AS/ward - use rock eye here. They are useless against high AS : / A empire wizard W3 T4 will on average die if shot by 6 models. (hit on 5+, 4 hits (2 auto-wound) and then a 4+ to wound and no AS and no ward hopefully if taken off guard).
Taking 8 will ensure more likely death to the above naked wizard, but by the math wont make a big impact to an armored character... the 3+ AS will be too hard to deal with.

But the poison ME will also be good monster hunters : )

Dwarf/Ogre blog (Danish)

mcsheehy 27 Apr 2013

The poison Man Eaters fill the role of; Monster hunters, War machine hunters (if everything else is dead hopefully, the enemy ofc) and of Snipers! Warhammer is a fickle game where each unit supports another, and characters bring buffs to make them more powerful. Normally players get a bit over confident with their WS6 king in a hoard of 40 Hatred Tomb Guard and tend to build him more offensive than defensive

Once sniped a players Heiro on turn 1... He demanded a re-match before turn 2 started lol.

As stated above the Gnoblars in 4 units of 10 would be more helpful meaning you can control over runs to your advantage (when you get skilled enough) but one bad turn and your entire army runs for the hills! 2 Units of 20 are safer, will maybe last a turn in combat and they wont die to some mild shooting, the other player will have to dedicate 30 shots at them on average.
As for your gruts sickle question, if you run the SM out of a unit then no wounds are dealt but it cannot be used to supplement your casting. However if that extra 1 wound you deal kills off the last ogre in the unit then there is no need to roll the additional dice at the end of the magic phase as there is no unit left to kill him

Chris

(8th Edition Rules)
W |L|D
25|3|1

ellisk date unknown

ive edited the list again and i think ive got it to where it needs to be

Joakim date unknown

Looks solid!

Just a thought - you can trade 1 iron blaster and 1-2-3 ironguts for a unit of leadbelchers.
Sometimes 2 ironblasters can have a rought time getting enough targets and the lead blechers are more a safe bet for shooting smaller (weaker) units.

For the gnoblars. If your 20xpack get charged by a unit with 1 rank and they kill 5+ gnoblars (not unlikely) they will no longer be steadfast and will run away. perhaps at least go with 2 units of 30 and 10. one can redirect the other long the enemy unit for a round.

Dwarf/Ogre blog (Danish)

mcsheehy date unknown

Hey looking good!
What Joakim says is true. However it is a more advanced tactic and you will learn it in time. For me its too big an investment in speed bumps. I would keep them as 2x20 and position them at funny angles to force a reform or a disadvantageous over run when they inevitably beat your gnoblars into a pulp... after all what else are they good at?

I would however drop the banners on the Gnobars (you will lose regardless) and stick "gleaming pendant" on your Man Eaters allowing them to re-roll 1 ld test should they leave your BsB bubble

Could save 300+pts of models from a silly spell

Like I said, I would run your list like it is with that minor adjustment. You can however choose to adjust your list like Joakim suggested. I just feel it is more complex and requires quite a bit more forward planning. Then again you play beastmen so maybe not a bad thing

In short you will play a much more tactical game and more often than not your gnoblars will prevent you from charging (M4 remember) So my thinking is the more on the field the more obstacles you have also, only difference is your opponent racks up standards + VP for killing them. Additionally it means you have a lot more drops which is both good and bad!

Good - you can out deploy some opponents meaning you have a tactical advantage etc.
Bad - You will more often get to go second and a 1st turn purple nurple (sun) will ruin your day and you don't have the +1 to dispel from the maw lore that can make all the difference. Additionally your Pistol Eaters are able to kill a high priority target T1 instead of waiting until 2nd turn and the character has already done his dirty deeds!

Just the way I see it. I feel the cons out weigh the pros in this case, however if you play your gnoblars right then they can win you some combats that are not in your favour!

Have a think and let us know

As for the leadies yes Joakim has a point

your leadies will do wonders in some games although not in all.
I would stick with 2 cannons, you cannon is more effective in combat and it means your opponent has less turns shooting his "big guns" at you killing on average 1.5 per turn. where as with one cannon you will kill .7 per turn.
Just means your opponent gets less use from his artillery and you rack up some faster VP

also like I said above it is more effective in combat and one of those in the flank of an enemy is going to HURT

never mind two lol

Chris

(8th Edition Rules)
W |L|D
25|3|1

ellisk 30 Apr 2013

I don't think so.
Iron Blaster
20 Leadies 2x10
SM (Gruts sickle Level 4)
Butcher Level 1, Dispel Scroll
Bruiser BsB, Preservation amu
Iron Guts for 500pts should cut it
Ill work something out

Chris

wow that list would be very tough to shift

mcsheehy 30 Apr 2013

Im not sure lol
I may need to leave the butcher out all together and just go with BsB + General

Its worth it for a laugh anyway!
Just while im here, I know your a new Ogre player and was wondering if you get some time you wouldn't mind having a quick read over my new buying guide? Just let me know if you found anything usefull etc

Trying to see where I should improve and the feedback I have so far is from members who are already OK players.
http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=26888.msg354237#msg354237

Thank you
Chris

(8th Edition Rules)
W |L|D
32|3|3

Ogre Kingdoms Tactica - http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=26888.msg354181#msg354181

ellisk 30 Apr 2013

Im not sure lol
I may need to leave the butcher out all together and just go with BsB + General

Its worth it for a laugh anyway!
Just while im here, I know your a new Ogre player and was wondering if you get some time you wouldn't mind having a quick read over my new buying guide? Just let me know if you found anything usefull etc
Trying to see where I should improve and the feedback I have so far is from members who are already OK players.
http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=26888.msg354237#msg354237

Thank you
Chris
[/quote/]

Just had a look over it and I really like it! I'm a big fan of army handbooks/tactics/buyingguides. So this is right up my street!

Many thanks!

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