Is a Slaughtermaster too expensive at 1500&1750 points?

Hi folks.

This is my first post here. Hello!

I'm building a pirate theme ogre army for an escalation league in Los Angeles. I'll be posting pics in the gallery soon, it looks pretty cool so far. We are currently at 1500 points.

My question is this. I'm getting a little bit hammered in my early games and I'm wondering if its because I've got over 300+ points tied up in a Slaughtermaster.

My list is basically 8 Guts, 6 Bulls, 2 Sabretusks, Bruiser w/ Maw Banner & GW, Slaughtermaster w/ dispell & GW, 2 Mournfang & an Ironblaster.

I'm not looking for very specific take this lose that advice, because I think that takes the fun out of exploring a codex. I would really appreciate a very simple:

A) Slaughtermasters totally work in competitive 1500-1750 point games.
B) Slaughtermasters are too expensive for such a small game.

Note, that in our local scene the majority of players are bringing level 4 casters at 1500 points. I'd really appreciate some advice from the Ogre Elders here.


-Morfiend, Los Angeles CA

I think Slaughtermasters make great generals at 1500 pts. You can give them the Fencer's Blades and the Glittering Scales and have a very tough General that can really power up his army. Being Hit at best by 5's, mostly on 6's, being T5 and W5 and having access to +1 T, +1 S or 4+ Regen is kinda nice. Oh and you have 5 WS 10, S4 magical attacks.

I take a BSB and a set up similar to yours in my 1500 pts list and it's been wonderful so far, I like it a lot.

Thanks for the reply. Level 4's dominate the 1500 point games I play in but in my 6 Ogre games so far I feel the SM is just a 6 dice trollguts machine costing me almost as much as a fresh unit of ironguts.

I'm not sure why GS & FB builds on SM's are so popular! In my group its very rare for people to put attacks on characters because they always go for the unit (when they can) to max out CR. When he does get attacked the couple of wounds he suffers are usually healed in the next magic phase.

For now, I'm going to try and avoid any armor on the SM though to respect the note from Jervis on the FAQ. Looking around I must be the only sucker who does that though!

The reason why you kit your SM with Fencer's Blade and Glittering Scales is to deny CR. Put this guy with a defensive BSB in a unit of 7 Ironguts and you opponent is going to have to 3 possible targets:

1) SM: He's tough to crack with the build. Chances are he won't die, especially if you managed to Trollguts him.

2) The BSB: He's tough to kill as well. I give him a 3+ AS and a 6+ WS with the Ward vs Flaming attacks.

3) The unit champion: Now this guy isn't hard to kill compared to the other 2 targets, but if you put 20 wounds into this they still don't pass on to the rest of the unit. This means that usually, in one the 1st round of CC, they will only kill 1 ogre. If you are sporting the Stubborn Crown on your BSB like I do, it means you are gonna stick around and stand a good chance of winning.

Heck, some players even put 3 characters in a unit and just kite them defensively in order to prevent their opponent from ever attacking the Ironguts unless they get through the characters.

As for not using armour on the SM, I really don't see the issue with it. I mean, Ogre players don't have overpowered builds like VC or WoC so why shouldn't we use the tricks we we're (unintentionally) given?

Finally, about the 6 dicing, I don't do that. It's asking for trouble most of the time. I'd rather try to cast 2-3 spells then putting my game on the line for 1 spell and getting my general and level 4 get sucked into the warp. I rarely try to bubble Trollguts unless it is absolutely necessary. +1 Toughness, +1 Strength, Stubborn and the Magic Missile are also worth casting. To be honest, the only spell I dislike in the Lore of The Great Maw is the 6th spell which I never take.

For now, I'm going to try and avoid any armor on the SM though to respect the note from Jervis on the FAQ. Looking around I must be the only sucker who does that though!

I've done this when I'm tight on points and I don't think it's that big of a disadvantage at all. I don't think I've ever had a Slaughtermaster properly killed. Run down, yes. Sucked into the warp... about 50% of the time. >.< But never straight up killed.

DONT 6 DICE GUTS! It hurts more than it helps in my experience...
All 3 of my loses were me getting sucked into the warp and blowing up my gutstar lol
 
Anyway... As for your question.
Slaughter master is arguably the best model in our book! He can be kitted so many ways and fill so many different roles!
I run mine (not defensive) with Gruts sickle (level 6! +1 for maw sig, level 7 casting anyone!?) and Dispel Scroll, Level 4.
That's it, its all he needs. He is T5, W5 and regens wounds on EVERY spell. Its silly.
I run my BsB with Armour of destiny, and a level 1 butcher with crown of command. Butcher hides in 2nd rank and the unit champion accepts duels. Some times my BsB does depending on who it is.
The butcher makes me Stubborn (or you can use maw sig spell and 1 dice it) BsB provides re-rolls and wont die with that 4++ (very easily anyway) your SM is not Level 7 at 1500pts. Lets see them dispel that!
4 Dicing guts is enough especially with +7 to cast. Not many people will be able to dispel your spells with lower or equal dice. They usually need to commit more than you did, meaning you get more spells off over all. (leave guts to last!)
 
As for the Maw banner... it doesn't really help much it only redirects spells that "target" you... however most of the bad spells out their - Shades, Purple Sun - don't actually target our unit. They "place" a template therefore RAW it does not effect those spells Wish they would FAQ this
 
But theres my 2 cents. Level 7 casting will ensure you get pretty much all your spells off without risking many miscasts. If your worried about rolling double 1 from gruts sickle, don't be. If you are 6 dicing guts I believe your chances of losing your wizard levels and or losing him altogether are about 23% greater? Sorry just woke up and I might be WAY off lmao.
 
Chris

Ogres generally struggle in less than 2000 pt games as we have lower amount of units and the characters get relatively expensive.

I like the SM even in smaller games, but be prepared to run him in a cheap version and then keep him in 2nd row of the iron gut unit. For this you need a full command and only go 3 wide in formation.
Be prepared to skip the 4th level on him and run him naked with a dispel and gw - should get you there for less than 300 : ) The maw lore on a lvl3 will give you at least 1-2 fairly useful spells - either way dont expect to cast more anyway. Ogres wont outmatch anybody in the magic phase so pray for the dispel scroll and a bit of luck. It's ~1500 pt so the army can be hit or miss. using the maw lore on a naked SM is also good as you can get wounds back and the 5 wounds will last for a good long time. Afterall the SM functions also as the general so keep him defensively and let your iron guts sort out the rest - most other armies in 1500 pt games will struggle with them and mournfang (even a cute unit of 2).

Cheers and good luck!

I've found Slaughtermasters to be more than worthwhile at low(er) point levels. The only thing that really poses a threat to them is a Vamp lord or a Chaos character, and of course the ever wonderful winds of magic. Like mcsheehy I love the Grut's Sickle but at a lower point game I'll take the dispell scroll and fencers blades, maybe a talismanic ward save if I have the points. Stick with him and don't abuse the power dice, you'll be fine.

These are really helpful comments, thank you so much everyone.

Here's what I've learned:

•Don't 6 dice TG. I was doing that everytime! (I am a recovering Skaven player)
•Try the Gruts Sickle sometime!
•What bubbleguts means! (a big trollgutted unit of ironguts, right?)

What I haven't learned:

•Do people not love the Rune Maw Banner?! I immediately fell in love with it. (mcsheehy, note that pit of shades has been FAQ'd to say 'target unit' so it totally works there! Purple sun is really the only way around it)
•Should I try a 3 wide unit of Ironguts with no Musician and 2 characters in front?
•Consider a level 3 SM (being level 4 almost guarantees TG though)


Thanks everyone! I'll post some pics soon--I'm painting up almost the entire Bloodsail Island set, I haven't seen any painted pictures of most of these units so hopefully you guys will enjoy seeing them.

If your looking to shave off some points. Drop that level 4 if your using Gruts sickle. You are still going to cast like a level 5! and if you get 1 successful cast then next spell is +6 and you will dispel like a level 4. (thank you maw lore)
 
Yes don't 6 dice ANYTHING if you want your character to stick around
Bubble guts actually means running multiple units within 12" and getting the "boosted" TG off hence "bubble". It usually leads to your opponent packing his army away and throwing scenery at you so be warned 
 
As for the Pit of shades, I did not know this. I will have to scan the FAQ. Again, Sigh...
 
As for the chances of TG on a level 3 you still have quite a high chance and an failing that T5 ogres are almost as good T5 Regen ogres however... Again leads to projectile scenery.
I run my guts 3 wide 3 deep, or 4 wide 3 deep depending on points I never go more than 3 deep unless its a hoard wasted attacks
I stick my SM,BsB and unit champion on front rank. That way he has to allocate since its all "characters" your champ will die. But means more hits on SM/Bruiser. Bruiser should have bsb and 4++, Sm can regen so yeh... he wont move them any time soon, Especially with T5/TG. Also bear in mind that +1T on your SM/Bruiser wall makes them T6!
Will look forward to your pics. If you put up a gnoblog can you link it here so I get a reminder?
 
Chris

I've only recently started sticking the characters up front with a unit champ, and I've found that it has made a pretty big difference to the longevity of my units, so I definitely recommend going 3 wide, 2 characters making way to the front in combat and the champ standing beside them.

At 1500 points, with your Slaughtermaster tying up a good chunk of your army, you're absolutely boned if he blows himself up, so cannot stress enough not to 6 dice spells.  Especially if he's your general, since you're handing over cost+100 points.

I'm a huge fan of the Rune Maw, saved my bacon plenty of times this weekend.  Also if you're playing against a lot of Wizards, I also recommend giving the Hellheart a go.  This is another one of those wonderful things that will result in someone throwing scenery at you.  Though generally you want to stick the HH on someone else, I personally put it on a Firebelly in a unit of Ogres or Maneaters (depending on how many points I have) with the Movement banner and run them straight up as close to the mages as I can before I pop it.

Well I've played 4 games since my question & applied advice.

All these games are 1500-1750 using ironguts with all my characters as my main threat, 2-3 mourn, an ironblaster, cats, 5 belchers or ogres, & a firebelly at 1750

Game 1 high elves, lost bad:
Guts sickle build. Lost my SM to snake eyes on turn 2! Cursing my bad luck I also thought the gruts is a different kind gambling. Almost as risky as IF if you lose a caster every 6 games.

Game 2 HE lost worse:
A panicked cat panicked my generals unit. Rolled 10 then 11. Then 11 for flee then failed to rally and rolled a 12 and ran off the board. We restarted.

Game 3 HE tie:
Lost my caster to gruts again! This time it was turn 4 though and I managed to still tie. Would have easily won otherwise. No more gruts for me!!

Game 4 beastmen, lost bad:
New build. Using hellheart SM now. IF'd troll guts on turn 1 with 5 dice. Rolled power drain, lost 3 wizard levels. Conceded immediately out of frustration. Considering 5 dice TG too be risky now too...?

This is a bad run of luck!

Game 5 beastmen big win:
Finally! I used hellheart to great success. I got brutalized by a p-sun in combat but characters survived and won combat and ran down the main unit.



I'll be thinking of a way to compete at 1750 without my character-star unit protected by the rune maw. But for now it seems this build is my best until our league escalates to 2000. I hate having 50%+ of my points in one unit. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I'm like 5 for 15 with my ogres now. Or something close to that. Having massive fun though.

Hey well done on the win!
 
Im really sorry to hear that about the gruts sickle!
Im on 25 wins I think (cant see my sig from post ) and ive never lost my SM to gruts lol. Just miscasts
HE are a bad match for us. I always struggle, WE too. They are too mobile and that ASF hurts bad with our low WS! My build against my mates HE is actually a tyrant because he takes teclis and I cba trying to out magic him lol. Just run in and smash face lol. The Firebellys Breathweapon is AWESOME against T3 elves!
So in future against HE I'd go for a tanky Tyrant build and 2 Firebellys in a unit ran 4x4 Tyrant-Bruiser-Fb-Fb. Two breath weapons will slaughter those elves and T5/6 will make it hard for them to land much CR even with ASF. The tyrant should be kitted tanky along with the bruiser (AoD) the Firebellys just a dispel scroll and 1 with Crown of command (can be kept in 2nd rank if you like)
 
The second HE games just sounds like bad positioning. I always run my cats 2 flank 1 centre and my Core unit on the other flank So that doesn't happen It happened on my first game... thank god I had a BsB
Honestly I would give Gruts a go again. It seems like you've just had some really bad luck... Maybe invest in new dice? Failing that there is always the Fencers blades set up which just makes him tanky and he tries to do what a Tyrant does "Tries" being the main word :)WS10 sure helps but he isn't S5/6 and doesn't have 6 attacks Just have a tinker and go again. Its all trial and error with ogres.
Even proxy your SM as a tyrant and see if you like that style of play better.
Here is the 2000pt list I have had great success with (100% win rate - 11 Games - 3 Round Tournament)
 
Tyrant - 320pts
Maw Seeker, Tricksters Helm, Biting Blade, Heavy Armour, Iron Fist
Bruiser - 188pts
BsB, Armour Of Destiny, Iron Fist
Fire Belly - 172pts
Additional Hand Weapon, Hellheart
Fire Belly - 127pts
Rock Eye, Additional Hand Weapon
 
6x Iron Guts - 288pts
Standard, Bellower, Swiftness
11x Ogres - 382pts
Standard, Bellower, Iron Fists, Crusher
 
4x MFC - 310pts
Standard, Bellower, Eternal Flame Banner
2x1 Sabres - 42pts
 
Iron Blaster - 170pts
 
I didn't run with the Crown of command because I never lost combat with my block of characters
1 Firebelly in each unit (Hellheart with character bus). This set up provided me with lots of flaming attacks to remove regen from anything they hit and two breath weapons to rank up some fast CR in multi- combats You can always swap it out for a Dispel Scroll and Crown if you want to play it safer
 
Chris

Yeah, I keep losing my SM recently to miscasts, so don't assume that 5 dice isn't as bad as six. If it helps, go for the toothcracker bubble - less dice needed so less chance of going pop.


Although really you don't need to bubble most of the time. Just look at the field and work out what's most likely to be attacked, and buff that. Alternatively, buff one with Toothcracker, one with Trollguts. Don't panic and go overboard thinking you need to make everything unkillable.


Also, a simple dispel scroll can often be the best arcane item.

Heee mcsheehy...

11 wins in a row, including a tourny, sounds great.
I want to give it a try aswell.

Tyrant - 320pts
Maw Seeker, Tricksters Helm, Biting Blade, Heavy Armour, Iron Fist

Just like to know your experience with the stupidity special rule that comes with the Maw seeker. Did you ever had a failed Ld test at the start of your turn? Did you forgot to check for stupdity often?

And in what way did you use the "Immune to Psychology" to your favor?

If someone else knows, you're also welcome to post it below...

With the Stupidity rule yes I forgot to take it in my first two games - A rule I had never used before and I am still quite new to WHFB from 40k
However re-rollable Ld 9 is hard to fail, if they don't move and you take a charge then so be it... your still tough as nails! just subtract 4 CR from your usual no charge or impacts makes me a sad ogre
 
As for the immune to psych it has never came into play yet I tend to be very carefull with my sabres so as not to cause panic
Other than that I cant really think of anything else I would have been using it against.
Im sure once I become a more seasoned player I will find more advantages in being immune to psyche but at the moment It hasn't really come into play.
 
Once I remembered about the stupidity rule I stuck a piece of paper behind the unit (with opponents permission) to remind me! (could have worked In his favour so I see no problems) and now its just second nature
 
Chris

Hehe, remembering those special rules are tough! : )

Any considerations to using a gw - its cheap and the ini-value is worth it AND it allows points to be spent on other gear? The ironfist wont give the 6++ with a magical weapon and the armor safe will always be bad on the tyrant : /
S7 is a can opener for those high armour safe guys out there.

Didn't realise I didn't get my 6++ with a magic weapon? that's new to me lol
Well Guess ill stick a GW on him and maybe Iron Curse icon then
Thanks for pointing that out, every days a learning day
 
But yes I agree, all these special rules are tough to remember at the right time... Like Gruts Sickle lol Ive forgotten that a few times at the start
 
Chris