Some questions (that to anyone but me, will be easy to answer...i hope)

Hi guys,
As my Ogre army grows ever bigger i have started to think about a second army. As i am primarily a painter, i have been drawn to things that i would like to paint. This has lead me to some great ideas that i have for a chaos dwarf army...but then this is where the problems have started.

First off, i dont have the Tamurkhan. I understand it contains a list for the chaos dwarf army. But is this list just like a one dimentional "get this, then this add this and this" type of list or does it actually contain the same type of options that a GW army book has, so the army can be "mixed-up" a bit?

I have mentioned to a few friends that i am thinking of starting a CD army as i have ideas for painting them etc and in the main they have said "dont expect me to play against them". Um, this may sound stupid, but why is that? Surely whoever made the list/ army must have taken into consideration the playability of this army? Having read the "...tier" topic here, there is no-one saying that CD are out-and-out the most unbeatable army so dont play them.

It is my understanding, and i could be wrong here but again i dont have the Tamurkhan book, that the models made by FW dont actually cover all the units in the army. If that is true, what are you supposed to use/ allowed to use to represent the stuff that GW or FW dont make? I have seen talk about Mantic abyssal dwarf models, but presumably these can't actually be used in games...which seems a bit odd.

If this army is so unbalanced and broken....why does anyone bother with it at all? That is to say; if it really doesn't work, why dont GW and FW just bin it forever?

More practically, whilst saving up for the book (which seem's a touch spendy to me but hey...thats life) what are the best models to start off buying (ie you will need them whatever way you decide to build the army)?

Lastly, whilst trying to piece together some idea about a CD army, i came across these FW models on their site called Fimir warriors. They look really cool, but i have no idea what army they are supposed to be attached to. Where can they be used (if at-all) and where do they originate from. There is some hint at fluff on the Fw site but it doesn't really say anything  that would suggest they are part of a WoC army, Orc army etc etc so i was just wondering....also, how big are they and could i get a bunch of them and use them as "counts as..." Iron Guts for my OK army without anyone laughing me out of the place because i have made some fundamental error histroy-wise!

I know that some of these questions may seem a bit dumb, but if i dont ask i will never know. So...i'm asking! 
Thanks in advance for any help with this
Xander

I dont see any dumb questions around - Remember there are no stupid question, only stupid people ; )

I cannot answer all of your questions but I'll try as good as I can. The CD book is not from the GW line of armybooks but from Forgeworld, technically also a GW division, but different. The armies can play together but I am not sure if CD is officially accepted for GW tournaments too. I recall the wording is that all officialt and current books can be used. I know that some tournaments wont allow the CD book as it is not balanced very well. Also given that the CD book is not as available to the normal GW-crowd makes some people dislike it as you cannot assume people know the rules.
It is a grey area.

So if you like the fluff and the figures for painting by all means get the book and enjoy what you like best! But if all you buddies wont play with you and that's the important part for you - get another second army, like Wood elves : )

Hopefully, you can combine the two suggestions above : )

Enjoy!

For me A lot of the forgewold rules for models ( Rhinox ect ) and the whole chaos dwarf list are far over powered and no fun to play against.

It seems A bit like you are paying cash to auto win games sometimes. however I still love to see nice models on the table even if they are kicking my ass.

as far as the fimir go they I think they would make some pretty sweet Iron Guts for a chaos themed army but they will have their own rules somewhere in either a forgewolrd book or on theire site. (I use Forgewold skin wolves as gorgers)

Having played against some seriously brutal legal GW-approved armies I genuinely get annoyed at people who take the opportunity to refuse to play against FW armies as if they have some moral high ground.

It's a reasonably poky army, with a scary lore and a monster that is actually broken (never field the K'dai Destroyer if you have a soul). But it's nowhere near 7th ed Daemons level and is beatable. I'd say it's a higher tier army, same power level as ogres. If you avoid the Destroyer it'll end up relatively balanced.

Thing is though, people just have this weird sort of thing about FW as it's not an official GW list (though it does sort of state it's an official army list for all purposes, but that's a debatable point). As a result, people feel they can justify refusing to play them on those grounds whenever they see anything remotely intimidating, whereas plenty of armies like Dark Elves justify their ridiculously cheap Hydras because it's GW official. For me, that sort of ruins the whole debate.

However, if people round your end will give you grief for it, just try another army - there's plenty of visually stunning ones available. As for Fimir, they do have their own rules in Storm of Magic, but you can just use them as counts as anyways - if anyone has a problem with THAT, then you've got to get yourself a new playgroup.



Sorry if I sound a bit harsh there, but I just seem to run up against the anti-FW attitude, and all I use is Lietpold and Sayl the Faithless - and Sayl SUCKS. It's quite hard to justify what people are saying when they run the kind of lists you expect from Tournaments.

http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/index.php

Check out the CD forum to get a feel for the army. They are definitely strong, but they're also not broken. It isn't a super flexible army, but you still have the chance to mix things up a bit.

Thanks for this.
(though i still dont quite get why someone would make an army that can be at best rarely used).

I dont know allot (about anything really) about the FW/ GW debate and why some people would not want to play all armies that are presented too them...surely it is worth remembering it is just a game!. Maybe it's just me, but facing an army that is more difficult to defeat should surely be a bit of a challenge to the normal concept of "oh, Beastmen...right i will take this, this and this because that's how my army will win". I suspect that i am not in the majority with this line of thinking.

The only thing that puts me off with starting a CD army is the fact that they seem to have 2 very seperate types of model and i dont quite know how this works in practice. The guys with "top hats" seem to be armed with axes or guns and the newer FW models seem to have a very different look and weapons. I assume this is in line with the list in this Tanurkhan book. BUT, can both of these models be used to formulate a CD army?
The reason i ask is (partially price, top-hat dudes seem much cheaper on fleabay) if people are reluctant to play CD armies, then they dont need much of an excuse to say "well, that's not legal, the axe dudes are not WYSIWYG" etc.

For me, in the end, if i never ever actually use these guys in an actual game then it wont actually matter. I live in the middle of nowhere, so not near a club, and i like painting armies more than actually playing them. (My success rate in games is totally pants! I played O&G from around 1983/4 until 1988 and my best performance was 1 draw! 40k Orks: P120 (ish) W1 D11).

As for Fimir i really like the idea of bunging them into my OK army as IG. I will probibly do this regardless.

Joakim: Woodies? Um, a friend plays them and whilst the challenge of painting eagles and dragons is slightly appealing i am not too struck with the rest of them...not in comparison to the stuff that goes on in my head when i look at models like OK and CD....it's a dark place in there and these models lend themselves to a multitude of conversion/ painting stuff (to me anyway). If i started woodies i think i would just use other models (Dark elves, Dark Eldar etc etc) which just defeats the object i guess. Nice idea though.
Xander

I have just spent 800 quid buying myself an army of Chaos Dwarves from Forgeworld. The models are amazing, and the rules are fairly solid. The K'daai in general were strong, but the Destroyer is broken. Hence why I am having two :‛)

I think the army can be as flexible as you want it to be, but the most common list you see is an artillery spam, with 4 levels of magic, and k'daai to the teeth. I wouldn't object to someone using the old metal models, but not everyone would be okay. Also, be careful where you get them on eBay, because they could end up setting you back just as much as the Forge world models...

JJ

I dont see any dumb questions around - Remember there are no stupid question, only stupid people ; )

I cannot answer all of your questions but I'll try as good as I can. The CD book is not from the GW line of armybooks but from Forgeworld, technically also a GW division, but different. The armies can play together but I am not sure if CD is officially accepted for GW tournaments too. I recall the wording is that all officialt and current books can be used. I know that some tournaments wont allow the CD book as it is not balanced very well. Also given that the CD book is not as available to the normal GW-crowd makes some people dislike it as you cannot assume people know the rules.
It is a grey area.

So if you like the fluff and the figures for painting by all means get the book and enjoy what you like best! But if all you buddies wont play with you and that's the important part for you - get another second army, like Wood elves : )

Hopefully, you can combine the two suggestions above : )

Enjoy!

GW tournaments don't exist anymore, so that doesn't matter.

And a growing majority of tournaments, over here in the US anyway, are allowing Chaos Dwarves to play.

Yup, I'm seeing Chaos Dwarfs being allowed at every GT I've been so since Tamurkhan came out.

Regarding balance, CD are annoying because they're kind of a paper-rock-scissors army. They'll brutalise Ogres or Beastmen in a way that is quite indecent. Empire, especially with Shadow, will put CD down hard with little effort.

Regarding the models: Big Hats are the old skool CD models from back when GW actually supported the army. Pretty sure you can find them with HW&SH, Blunderbusses (the guns), or GWs, all of which are available and viable options in Tamurkhan. You won't be able to field Fireglaives though. The FW models come with Fireglaives or HW&SH, which means you can't field GWs or Blunderbusses without conversions. Warmachines are available from FW for specific Tamurkhan units, and a variety of old Big Hat warmachines exist that can be pressed into service. So really either style will work pretty well. They do tend to look a little silly if mixed'n'matched though. And of course a third option is to convert your army from normal dwarves; this is a route that a lot of players take.

Cost-wise, yeah, FW is super expensive. But their models are amazing. If you instead opt for Big Hats, you can often find the more OOP common plastics for decently cheap on eBay. But if you want any variety in your army you'll have to join the bidding wars on all the loooong OOP metal models, many of which are considered to be collector's items. So prices will approach or even exceed FW prices for parts of the army.

Finally, be aware of the new base sizes if you decide on Big Hats.  The old Bull Centaurs came on cav bases, but now they are on 50x75mm. Or the Bale Taurus, which originally came on a 50mm base, but now comes on a 100x150mm base.

There are also a few third party businesses that sell "corrupted dwarves" or something along those lines that a made to be an alternative.

There are also a few third party businesses that sell "corrupted dwarves" or something along those lines that a made to be an alternative.

Such as Miniatures of the North, distributed by Anvil Industry

JJ

I do believe CD are pretty well accepted in most official events and have read articles written by GW and they say it is fine so if you aren't allowed to use them, that's unlucky. Personally, I think refusing to play against any army is not in the spirit of the game! I played a game of 40k knowingly against some one who had brought an entire army comprising of two small troop units, a basic hq and 9 death croissants! Nor did I have anything remotely anti-air! Still I played and was trounced! Many, many people exploit their armies to the max to create something unholy. CD are just a really cool addition. I would play them any day just to admire the models! Most people should play you.

CD are a legitimate army as well. It's not like you have just turned up with some random models and a printed rule book you created yourself! Rant over and I hope all goes well!

Yup, I'm seeing Chaos Dwarfs being allowed at every GT I've been so since Tamurkhan came out.

Regarding balance, CD are annoying because they're kind of a paper-rock-scissors army. They'll brutalise Ogres or Beastmen in a way that is quite indecent. Empire, especially with Shadow, will put CD down hard with little effort.

Agree on both points.

I would also mention that in addition to brutalizing Ogres and Beastmen (mostly Minotaurs), they also will brutalize your wallet.  Seriously, everything that has to do with that army is expensive.  The army book alone is about triple the cost of the typical GW army book. 

Be prepared to drop some serious cash on the army, then see it have mostly one-sided games (wins or losses) with very few fair fights.

-Snark

Any army that can kill the warmachines from long range and kite away the K'dai should be ok.

Ogres CAN do this, but its tough without getting hit by Magma cannons.

Once again thanks for all this^.

At the risk of being battered to death for asking too many questions on this subject, i do have a couple more...sorry 

On base sizes; do old top-hat guys have different base sizes to the new FW guys or are they the same?

Appearence: Are we saying that an army with both Top-hat dudes and FW models just looks a bit pants and should be avoided?

Hang on a minute, now your pushing it: Would it be acceptable to have a CD army that is made up of old top-hat dudes, FW models, converted Dwarves and models made by a company other than GW? Or would this be seen as just taking the whole CD thing too far?

Playing fair: If i openly announce that i will not bring one of these massive beast guys (K'dai destroyer?) in the army and not ever include one on my list, are people more likely to play a CD army?

Playing fair #2: Is it feasable to say that you could have a CD army that is 500-1000pts less than your opponents when playing? Would that even up the game at all?

Where are they : What do people, most commonly, use to represent Hobgoblins and Hobgoblin wolf riders? Fluff-wise, what is the difference between a goblin and a Hobgoblin?

The future of CD: I dont suppose that anyone knows if there is any chance that GW my "re-introduce" the Cd as a (um...hard to describe) more legal than just legal army?

Thanks in advance...i am really sorry to keep asking stuff about this, but if i do decide to start a CD army as my second army, it's a big financial commitment and i just want to be sure that i am going to do it right.

Oh, and i take it then that Fimir are not anything to do with CD then? Not that i was going to use them for that anyway....
Thanks
G_H

For alternative minis, some companies have been mentioned, but mantic and scibor also have ranges of chaotic dwarves (names may of course change ; ). Check out eg. waylandgames (their banner is all over the forum), they carry a lot of producers so you can browse around. Normal GW dwarves can relatively easy be converted with green stuff.

To the whole 'CD is broken - you can play by restriction systems (e.g. ETC) to overcome some of silly combos out there for a somewhat more balanced, and changed game play.

Enjoy!

The future of Chaos Dwarves is most definitely and firmly in the hands of FW. Games Workshop turned their back on them, exactly the same as they did with Fimir, Slann, Squats and Zoats. Forge World will continue making them as long as they remain profitable.

The difference between a goblin and a hobgoblin is vast. They are taller, more gangly, and even more devious and sneaky than your average goblin. They aren't too great in the Tamurkhan book though, and should really only be used as chaff.

I would say you should find willing opponents if you leave the k'daii at home. That said, I wouldn't play a game with someone who was willing to refuse to play a game against something like the Destroyer...

JJ

I would play any army that my opponent cares to bring to the table. I even like play testing home-written rules by myself or others as long as I feel they are trying to be fair!

I would never refuse to play CD as they look amazing and the list is great and fluffy. It has a weak point for every strong so I'd say it's fairly balanced.

I think the big hats look PANTS. So I would always avoid them - other companies make cool models but watch out as you won't be able to use them in GW stores. If you can afford it I would go straight for those FW models as they genuinely rock.

My friend runs the old plastic top hat models as his standard blocks with handweapon and shield, the new forgeworld magma cannon and fire glave minis aswell as some characters.

Its personal prefrence on the models he only has old top hats as he had a CD army when they first came out. And in response to your other questions your opponents must be either obsessed by winning, have no compassion for what other people want or like or are just quite rude. Down at my local games club and myself included we would happily play a CD list, i just think your opponents are being mean/selfish.

And my friend also uses standard goblins as hob goblins, when they roll a 6 for animosity you swift reform into 10 wide and throw millions of throwing knives at the enemys face at +1 to hit they sure know about it!

I'd say go for it they are sweet models, screw the haterz ;D
TLK!

Oh, for the record, in their FAQ (as FW did do one for the book), it's stated that since FW didn't do any models for the war machines that aren't on carriages, it's perfectly fine to use the old CD war machines as stand in for the new ones.

Mixing and matching the top hat dudes is fine - it's just like mixing and matching old warhammer models with new ones. I've seen old Lizardmen alongside new ones - they look silly, but there's nothing wrong with it.

Using models not made by FW and GW would depend upon if you're playing in a GW or not more than anything. If opponents have problems with your models on a purely aesthetic basis though... well, that's their problem.

Hobgoblins are the same - really just use goblins and you should be fine. They may have had models at one point, but for the most part they're more or less the same.

As long as you use the correct base sizes you should be ok.


Finally... get the rules first, and try a proxy match with some willing opponents. If people are going to be awkward even with the Destroyer concession then I don't really know what you can do, sadly...

If you're just gaming with your buddies, would you consider an unofficial list? There are two fan-made chaos dwarf books here http://battlereporter.freeforums.org/warhammer-army-books-fan-made-unofficial-f88.html

Once again, thanks for this. It has really helped me decide on starting the CD as a second army. I am sure that once i have put some effort into painting the army up and making them look good, opponents wont be able to resist playing them. If it turns out that they are still unhappy, i will drop the Kadii destroyer (or never take one in the first place) and suggest they come up with a rule set they are happy with playing against. Either way i win (not the game, i'm not too good at that!) i get to paint them and i either get to play them or get to find a new place to play games....it's all gravey!

I will post up pictures on my Gnoblog when i start doing the army (and when i get moved to my new house). Thanks for all your help with this, you are all my WF guru's without which i would but wither and die
Thanks
G_H

To be honest I think if you're a nice guy and don't come across as the WAAC type people will be happy to play you. There is some rather nasty stuff in the CD list that can be abused, but if you don't go down that route then you should have some really fun games and have an army that people will enjoy fighting.

FYI if you look on ebay sometimes you will see Chaos Dwarf stuff cheaper from China. It is not forgeworld, but knock offs. I try not to buy pirated intellectual property personally but to each his own. regardless, if you buy resin models wash them well before assembling and priming to remove mold release.

I think the old big hats are goofy, kings of war aren't much better, and don't like the scibor boyars much though they are decent.. but play what you like, and don't mix them if you lose the cohesive look of the army.