Part 3: Kill me... kill me now

Part 1: My army ain't working

Part 2: It svcks to be me

Yesterday I faced the new Orcs & Gobbos lead by my friend, an old time veteran who was fielding a totally revised list. He had:

-a large (26) black orcs unit
-a large unit of big'uns with a shaman a mounted orc character
-2 night goblins units with fanatics
-2 chariots
-1 wolf rider unit
-giant
-2 catapults and 2 bolt throwers

he was having an army with a lot less models than usual and he was apparently unconfortable with it... nonetheless, he was pretty confident in his new army book and i knew i wouldn't have it easy... but let say that i was happy no to see boar riders...

i had to prepare myself to stop a whaaaag around the second or third turn, after had seen rocks and bolts land on my units...

on my side, i haven't change my list a lot (changes are in blue)

-tyrant with 6 guts
-bruiser with GW with 5 bulls
-butcher with bangstick and HL cookbook
-hunter with 2 sabretusks
-2x units of 4 bulls
-gorger
-3 maneaters
-8 trappers

to make the report short, let just say that he kept a front line quite coherent, with only the wolf riders in the side to flank... it was pretty obvious that he was waiting the right time to call the waaagh... which happenned in the 3rd turn and it wasn't such a turning point because, yes, it allowed him to make the short distance that he needed to charge most of my core units, but his black orcs missed a fear test trying to charge one of the 4-bulls unit and one of the charriot (with a character mounted on it) lost the fight versus my butcher (which was in a 4-bulls unit).

The only thing that went well for him was the big'uns unit that "raped" the bruiser unit... his character had 8 STR9 (!!!) attacks because my 4 characters were within 12" of him... he challenged my bruiser that never had a chance...

it's at this moment that everything crashed for me.... my tyrant missed his Ld test caused by destruction of the bruiser unit and he flew into the black orcs units...that he was about to charge in the flank 

but believe me... that's not the worst...

my hunter, worth 201pts, fully intact, equipped to kill a giant, with 2 sabertusks, declared his charge into the giant that was also charged by the butcher unit... but you know what ? he had to get through a single NG fanatic (worth 25pts) and he suffered 6 str6 hits, which 4 wounded... killing my hunter... 

the butcher unit couldn't kill the giant, flew when a charriot entered the combat... and that was the end of it

at the end of the game, only my maneaters were alive and 5 trappers that had an epic battle with the goblin crew of one of the bolt thrower

another sad day...

what i learned

+killing blow on the gorger is cool (i killed the shaman with it)
+greatskull is now a must for me
+trappers are pretty usefull and they can die with no regret when 8 of them are worth one irongut

-i hate fanatics
-i must be more mobile (to have a better survivability versus guess range weapon)
-orc magic is pretty tough (only one of my remains-in-play spell worked and i could only dispel one spell in all the game)
-did i say i hate fanatics 

now my friends are talking to augment our 2150pts game to 3000pts... i am considering a Slaughtermaster, more bulls, more bulls, more bulls...

Something to note- you have both the Halfling's Cookbook and the Bangstick on your Butcher, which is illegal. Except for scrolls and power stones, you can only have 1 arcane item per Butcher. If you changed the Hunter or Bruiser to a Butcher you could have one with the 'book and one with the 'stick, but... not both on one character. I'd actually suggest having two Butchers in any event- that helps a bunch on getting your magic through and on putting a hole in enemy efforts to cast, especially considering that you'll have dispel scrolls.

One thing that leaps out at me is that you're using some *very* large units. You have a tyrant joining 6 ironguts making a unit of 7(!) ogres, and your bruiser joining 5 bulls making a unit of 6. At this point, you're ranking heavily, which is seriously wasting points.

Look at it this way.. 1 bull is a minimum of 35 points. If the Ogre book had an upgrade for your bulls that said "Bulls may upgrade bull charge impact hits by 1 strength at +35 points per model" would you ever take it? When you're ranking ogres, thats what you're buying. You're paying a minimum of 35 points to put all of those melee attacks in the second rank.

I would suggest most of your units of ogres should be broken up into units of no larger than 4. In the case of your ironguts, take a unit of 4 by themselves, and a unit of 3 that you add your tyrant to. Then you have a unit that's 4 wide which is easier to manuver, and a second unit of 4 that can attack something else or side charge supporting your other unit.

At all costs, avoid ranking ogres and having all those attacks doing nothing in the rear ranks. I would also agree that it's more cost effective to drop your hunter for another butcher. You don't want to get overwhelmed in the magic phase, and the more places you can get a trollguts cast, the better.

Also, take advantage of your opponents inherent greenskin weakness: leadership. You have a lot of poor leadership'd goblins out there, and only moderately well leader'd orc units. Get your butchers out there (preferably with a skullmantle) casting up braingobbler. If you force the gobbo units into fleeing, you don't have to worry about the fanatics. Or, if the fanatics come out, you can bonecruncher them (or swap the halfling cookbook for a bangstick) to clear them off the board before you come in contact.

I know the MSU strategy doesn't agree with a lot of people, but against horde armies, it's almost required. You've got a lot of static CR coming against you in the form of rank bonus, and even some goblins who get mauled in close combat can win out and run down ogres due to 4 or 5 static CR that takes good rolls to overcome. Orcs are even worse as they're harder to wound and will likely wound back. If you can get small units of 3 naked bulls to side charge, you'll knock out 3 of that static CR by negating ranks, pick up one of your own, and get a few more kills since your bulls are broken up into mobile units that all get in combat, rather than sitting in ranks of huge, un-maneuverable 5 wide formations. If you put 7 ogres in combat against 30 goblins, you're instantly 3 to 5 static CR down, best case. Don't put yourself in a position to have to make up that much CR. If you have 4 ogres in combat with the same goblins, with a 3 ogre side charge, suddenly you're on even ground or even ahead by a CR.

And definately throw those gnoblar trappers at the units of night goblins. Flush those fanatics out and force him to move forward through them.

Also, a scraplauncher can work wonders on greenskins. You roll 4+ to wound goblins (especially shamen) and 6's kill anything. A lucky roll can slay a mage or his character instantly, and the big pie plate can tear up those blocks of goblins.

Something to note- you have both the Halfling's Cookbook and the Bangstick on your Butcher, which is illegal. Except for scrolls and power stones, you can only have 1 arcane item per Butcher.

thanks, i'll fix that

also thanks a lot Kadrium

that's excellent reading... i'll consider everything you said... i am really an idiot not thinking i could kill the fanatics with spells... 

If i make huge units of ogres is in part to soak the shooting and the magic phases before i could enter the close combat and allow me to have some fighting power left... but i'll think about having smaller units, but more of them, thus forcing my opponent to choose carefully his target... but i know already that my friends will prefer to shoot at my tyrant unit instead of casting (because of the greatskull)

when i'll get my bits i'll start building a slaughtermaster to have a way better magic phase

thanks again... i shall post a 3000pts list soon

also thanks a lot Kadrium

that's excellent reading... i'll consider everything you said... i am really an idiot not thinking i could kill the fanatics with spells... 

Happy to help out a fellow Ogre

If i make huge units of ogres is in part to soak the shooting and the magic phases before i could enter the close combat and allow me to have some fighting power left... but i'll think about having smaller units, but more of them, thus forcing my opponent to choose carefully his target... but i know already that my friends will prefer to shoot at my tyrant unit instead of casting (because of the greatskull)

Well, I only see 1 caster in your opponent's list, the Shaman with the big'uns. If you take two butchers, not only can you effectively nullify his magic phase (your 4 dispell dice vs. his 4 casting dice, plus you can take thiefstones, plus any dispell scrolls) but you'll have an easy time with your own magic phase, as you'll be out-dicing him 6 power to 3 dispell. You're almost guaranteed 1 or 2 spells to go off every round unopposed, which means a lot of trollgutted ogres, and a lot of leadership checking greenskins.

Second, with an MSU style army, you can also use units of naked bulls to screen for your real hammer units, the ironguts. Two catapults and two bolt throwers is a whole lot of shooting, but offer him your bulls as targets and use them to protect the guts.

You'll have to be careful with your strategy against that sort of shooting. The bolts and rocks can hurt ogres bad, but he's got terrible ballistic skills, almost always needing a 5+ until close range with the bolt thrower. This is also one more reason you shouldn't be ranking your ogres. Bolt throwers pierce ranks. Why give him a chance to hit two ogres with one shot? Or cover more bases with his lobber's platter? Small groups, and more spread out will do you good. With your move of 12, also make sure you're getting yourself into combat as fast as you can. You need to be advancing and charging as soon as possible, but remember not to rush it so much that you get yourself out of position. As soon as you're in close combat, all the points in the world on bolt throwers and rock lobbers are wasted.

When your gorger comes on the board, try to move him right up to a rocklobber. Though he can't charge, he can use it as cover from the bolt throwers, and make your opponent really think about what its about to do to him. Plus, if you plant him right smack in front of the rock lobber, he restricts line of sight for that machine. Even if the bolts try to shoot it, they're at a 5+ because he's a single model, and a 6+ if it happens to be long range. If he can distract the bolters even for 1 turn and die, thats worth it to take the fire away from your main ground forces.

Good luck

Edit: For great spelling.

you gotta take a snarefinger - trapper champion - just to be able to say, when you next play O&G, that you have a greenskin with ballistic skill 4 (snigger, snigger).

i dunno if i completely agree with the comment about ranking ogres. yah i see your point about wasting the attacks. but with only 4 huts you are almost ALWAYS going to be outnumbered, and if you lose some guts and stick around for the next round of combat, you are down by a lot of attacks and are almost certain not to be able to kill that unit.
i personally always put my tyrant with at least 5 other guts when i'm playing 2250 or higher.
i realize it doesn't give me any bonuses but will give me the opportunity to continue the fight if it lasts more then one round of combat. i can't count the number of times i've had that work for me. tyrant with 8 other guts haha, got charged once when i was playing wood elves and just kept getting flanked and rear charged by treemen and dryads, and that unit did have to move for three turns i had enough guts all around to fight them off and in the end they beat every unit that charged them. NOT the ideal situation and luck definitly played a roll, but i still think that having some extra bulls or guts with your general is a good idea. but thats just me

I think unraked MSU style just requires a little more finesse to coordinate side charges. It's a strategy that relies on winning combat the first round and not going to round 2. Still, against O&G your protracted combat options aren't awful.. Your bulls will be dicing against the orcs to go first, and the tyrant/bruiser will get his shots in before the rank'n files do. If you can keep their front ranks whittled down, you won't take all that many wounds.

Large ogre units are definitely better suited to protracted combats, and they can almost always kill an entire rank or more of orcs off every round. If bulls win the initiative, they can keep from being counterattacked in the following rounds fairly handily. It's really a matter of personal preference. MSU has worked for me in the past, especially against horde armies where side charges are invaluable for removing that rank bonus that hurts us so badly. Not saying large units dosn't work, it just dosn't work for me.

haha ya. hope i didn't sound to aggressive wit my opinion. i definitly understand that different tactics for different players. i've tried MSU quite a few times i somehow never seem to have all that great luck though.
for some reason all my hand to hand combats seem to go more then one round! lol. the people i play against just sometimes get the luckiest rolls and boom its another round of combat ;P
but yah i can definitly see were you are coming from. cheers!