Armour Save Question

Hey all,

Just a quick question on Armour Saves. Back in 7th Edition, it was possible to give a model an Armour Save of better then 1+ (in most examples 0+), despite rolling a 1 still being a fail. What it meant was, a great Strength (ergo Armour Save modifier) was required to do some damage.

Has this rule been changed in 8th Ed, because I was just preusing the BRB, and it states that a model can't have an AS better than 1+, due to a 1 being a fail. Now, is this just bad wording, and you can have better than 1+, but it choose not to explain the 0+ bit?

Sorry if this seems obvious, I just can't see why it would have changed

JJ

Your capped at 1+ AS. No matter if you have items that take you lower. And a roll of 1 is still a fail. So S4 and below you fail on a 1. S5 and up do the math.

Okay, so the rule has changed since 7th Ed? Curious.

Thanks for the reply!

JJ

Doesn't the new WoC Juggernaut knights come with (essentially) a 0+ AS when you factor in the chaos armour, the juggernaut and the shield?

I thought I heard something like this once, but because you are capped at 1+ the shields are basically just for making the model look cool (which it does).

See, the 7th Ed rules didn't allow for you to have a genuine 0+ AS, but theoretical or on paper it did. In practice, you still failed on a roll of 1, but it meant itwould take a higher Strength attack to reduce your Armour Save, meaning you'd need S10 just to remove the Armour Save...

JJ

I understand that, but the juggernaut knights came out after 8th with a 0+ AS (I think) and I assumed the creator gave them shields just to make them look cooler (Skull crusher knights I think).

I'm pretty sure they have a 1+ AS. Chaos Armor -> 4+; Jugger -> 2+; Shields -> 1+

Or am I forgetting something?

check the FAQ, iirc the rule is not changed. so you always fail on a 1+ but you can go lower to make a high S reduction less effective.

So a 0+ AS getting wounded by a S5 attack is saved on a 2+.
I'll try to get the reference when I'm home later ...

I'm pretty sure they have a 1+ AS. Chaos Armor -> 4+; Jugger -> 2+; Shields -> 1+

Or am I forgetting something?

My mistake then, I thought juggers also give a 4+ mounted save.

check the FAQ, iirc the rule is not changed. so you always fail on a 1+ but you can go lower to make a high S reduction less effective.

So a 0+ AS getting wounded by a S5 attack is saved on a 2+.
I'll try to get the reference when I'm home later ...

Ahhh! You Sir, are 100% correct! The rule hasn't been changed, as can be found on Page 2 of the 8th Ed BRB Errata

JJ

Actually he's wrong. No matter what your armor save is, it is capped at 1+. You don't go back and recalculate every time your hit..."Well I got hit by a S6 but my REAL armor save is -1 so actually may save is X." Your armor save is 1+. The rule book says it. And that FAQ reinforces it. When you get to a 1+ save, you stop. That is as low as you can go. It states that although you can have items or whatever that can grant you a lower armor save. It is capped at 1+.

The only time you ever would re-check your armor save is if lets say a item got destroyed. Example is you have a 1+ save and have an enchanted shield that boost it to 0+. So your save gets capped at 1+. Someone comes along and destroys your magic shield making it just a regular old shield. So then you do the math again and end up with a 1+ save still. You didn't loose anything.

I'm sorry but that is not how I interpret that FAQ, and not how many rules lawyers would either. It simply reinforces that the saving throw is capped at 1+, not that it can be lower, for purposes of reducing the impact of a Strength-modified save.

This is exactly how the rule was interpreted and played in 7th, and why would that change?

JJ

So your saying that you have 2 armor saves? One that is 1+ for S3-4 attacks and one armor save for higher S attacks? That you recalculate your armor save depending on the S of the weapon hitting you?

And it changed cause 8th edition changed it.

But it hasn't changed, because the wording in both the BRB and FAQ remain the same as it was in 7th Ed, and the ruling back then was as I mentioned...

I'm not really saying it is one way or the other, I am merely asking whether it is the same as it used to be. When I say " used to be", it was even played that way on the Stronghold, with almost all members agreeing that it was possible to have a lower save than 1+... If I wasn't at work, I would dig out the old threads, but sadly I am

Either way, I guess the original question has been answered

JJ

I'm not saying it isn't possible to have a lower save. But it just gets capped at 1+. If you can recalculate it for higher S attacks, why bother capping it at all?

The BRB and the FAQ both say armour saves are indeed capped at 1+, which, as I take it; means you cannot have any lower save.

I wish it was the other way too, but I don't see how it can be.

Where does it say that in the FAQ? I just couldn't find it. (maybe I'm blind....) 

If you check the rulebook faq it's under the errata at the very start under Pg.43: Saving Throws.

Thanks Biadetic.

" Page 43 – Saving Throws.
Change the third paragraph to “Note that a save of any kind can never be better than 1+. This does not prevent a model having items or special rules that would take the save even lower, it simply caps the saving throw at 1+. Also, remember that a roll of 1 is always a failure.”

Hmm...That sounds a little contradictory. First sentence stops saves from going below a 1, then the second sentence says that the save can actually go below one but the saving throw is capped at 1+.

Or does the second sentence mean that you can still have a bunch of items that would improve your save to better than 1+ (Armour of Silvered Steel and a shield for example), but your save is a 1+ and not a 0+...

Yeah I believe "Or does the second sentence mean that you can still have a bunch of items that would improve your save to better than 1+ (Armour of Silvered Steel and a shield for example), but your save is a 1+ and not a 0+..." is right.

From what I can guess, it literally means, dont worry about taking any items that may reduce your save to less than 1. (Incase people decided to tailor their equipment  to stay within a 1+ AS) If that makes sense :S .... lol

No, JJ and MaanNaam are correct in the fact that, although the FAQ says that, your saving roll can never be 1, your armour can go BELOW 0 (Lizardmen can get -1 armour) but no matter how good, a roll of a 1 is always a fail. (-1000 AS still fails on 1)
It has never stated that you cannot go below 1, only that your roll can never pass on 1.
Take the Golden Demons for example. Our local hobby store owner was playing a game against a 0+ armoured guy (Chaos Lord I think) and he qasked the Judges the same question. They agreed that you can have better then a 1+ save, but you'l never pass on a 1 on a dice.

A model cannot have a save better than 1+, not even for strength purposes.

"Note that a save of any kind can never be better than 1+. This does not prevent a model having items or special rules that would take the save even lower, it simply caps the saving throw at 1+. Also, remember that a roll of 1 is always a failure.”

The line that says it does not prevent model from having items or rules to take it lower, and its capped means, is that if you have a 1+ save and you then wanted to add a charmed shield to your character, the cap does not prevent you from being able to buy the shield. It just does not allow the armour bonus to increase past 1+, but you still get the magical effect.

The statement is not contradictory. It specifically says, the save is capped and a model may NEVER have better. You can still buy items that make it better though.

Skullcrushers used to be 0+ with the update in White Dwarf, which was a problem for the rules, but with the new book they fixed them to be 1+. The Juggernauts brass behemoth was changed from a +3 armour save to a +2 armour save.

You cant get -1 armour for a S6 shot to still be saved on a 2+. Even if you had the gear to get to -1, you would be capped at 1+, and a S6 shot would be saved on a 4+.


**This is a change from previous Warhammer Fantasy Editions. The old 7th Edition WoC book also allowed the warshrine to give a model a wardsave of 0+. It would add a +1 to a maximum of 0+ (as written). So during 8th edition, people would argue that the army book would trump the rulebook and that Chaos was the only army in 8th Edition Warhammer to be able to get to 0+. While that may have been true because it was written specifically in the army book, they removed it with the new 8th edition book. Chaos now caps at 1+ like everyone else with the fix in the current book. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/429526.page Theres a link to one of a  THOUSAND arguments on the Chaos 0+ before the new book. Just google it, there are a ton!

In the FAQ it states it possible and allowed to go beyond a 1+ save, as a direct correction to the BRB...

JJ

In the FAQ it states it possible and allowed to go beyond a 1+ save, as a direct correction to the BRB...

JJ

No it doesn't. It states you are allowed to buy items that would normally take you lower than 1+, but you are still capped at 1+.

It has never stated that you cannot go below 1, only that your roll can never pass on 1.

It says it right here:

Note that a save of any kind can never be better than 1+.

In the FAQ it states it possible and allowed to go beyond a 1+ save, as a direct correction to the BRB...

JJ

No it doesn't. It states you are allowed to buy items that would normally take you lower than 1+, but you are still capped at 1+.

I think people don't know what 1+ means or something. It seems very, very straight forward to me.

I think people don't know what 1+ means or something. It seems very, very straight forward to me.

Yeah hehe. I think its because of the way they interpret the line that says they can still buy gear that gives a better save than 1+, but it is still capped.

Yes you can buy the gear, but it is still capped. The cap does not prevent you from buying the gear anyway. Says it in plain English. As with my first post on this thread, the purpose of this line is to say that being at a 1+ already does not prevent you from buying a charmed shield for example for the magical effect.

I think people don't know what 1+ means or something. It seems very, very straight forward to me.

Yeah hehe. I think its because of the way they interpret the line that says they can still buy gear that gives a better save than 1+, but it is still capped.

Yes you can buy the gear, but it is still capped. The cap does not prevent you from buying the gear anyway. Says it in plain English. As with my first post on this thread, the purpose of this line is to say that being at a 1+ already does not prevent you from buying a charmed shield for example for the magical effect.

Or buying a regular shield for the parry save

"This does not prevent a model having items or special rules that would take the save even lower, it simply caps the saving throw at 1+. Also, remember that a roll of 1 is always a failure.”

I am glad you guys agree, but I think it is as simple as it says in the FAQ...

Ardecay, but isn't that quote reinforcing what dirtycrabcakes and ashBorn are saying? :S (or are you agreeing?)

"This does not prevent a model having items or special rules that would take the save even lower, it simply caps the saving throw at 1+. Also, remember that a roll of 1 is always a failure.”

I am glad you guys agree, but I think it is as simple as it says in the FAQ...

I am not sure you understand what "1+" means.

I am not sure you understand what "1+" means.

please explain to me what you think it is I do not understand.

I am with Brainfreezer on this one.

A) there is no differentiation between "armor" and "armor save." Your armor save is the only armor value that exists. A 1+ armor save means you succeed on a roll of 1 or higher, aside from the always failing on a 1 rule.

B)the word "never" is absolute. When they say it can never be below 1+, then they mean NEVER.

C) If they wanted to let you go to zero or lower, they would have capped it at 2+, otherwise, it would be pointless and redundant to cap it at 1+ with a 1 always failing.

Working with the above, I have to assume that either you don't know what the word "never" means or you don't know what "1+" means. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and choosing the latter.

sorry to have to tell you that you are wrong on your assumptions, it is just that we interpreted thing differently.

Howerver, having read the thing for several times now you do sound convincing. 

I also asked this question on another forum and read the same question in a different thread somewere too. Both were replied with an armour save can not go below 1+.

You can have items that bring it lower, it just caps at 1+.

You have a chaos hero on a horse with a shield. He has a 1+ save. But you want to give him a dragon helm! Is that legal, because you can't have the save be 0+? Yes say the rules, you can have the item, you just stay at 1+.

Let's say our hero charges a building and must dismount. What's his save now? He still has the dragonhelm so it's a 2+.

Similarly if he suffered plague of rust, -1 armour save permanently, he'd still have a 1+ while mounted.

Then Plague Of Rust is working with the 0+ armour? Thats what we mean. Your armour can go lower then 1 because Strenght and spells affect it. You even said it your self:

You can have items that bring it lower, it just caps at 1+

Similarly if he suffered plague of rust, -1 armour save permanently, he'd still have a 1+ while mounted.

Note that Plague of Rust doesn't apply an extra -1 armour save modifier, it actually reduces your save permanently by one. Effectively destroying 1 point of armour.

0+ save affected by strength 4 (-1) with armour piercing (-1) would be 3+ (i.e. 1+ -2)

0+ save affected by plague of rust twice would be 2+.

(I probably should never have mentioned the plague of rust, that opens a new can of worms!)

This is how I play it:

I add up all my armor save modifiers to calculate my models armor save. +1 for this. +2 for that. -1 for plague of rust. If it adds up to anything lower than a 1+, it just becomes that 1+. It's not illegal to have a combination that brings you lower than a 1+, but it just becomes that. Lets say my model, before we resolve any combat, has a 1+ armor save. Then some big bad monster wounds my model at str 6. That attack then modifies my armor save at -3. So now I get my armor save at 4+.