A discussion of Non-traditional lists

Viable ogre lists

So I was thinking of the ogre list, and the many ways you can use the different units in both standardized and more obscure lists to great success. I have been playing Ogres since the original army box was released which I got for Christmas back in 2004, and I have tried a lot of different lists over the many years, and even though the majority of the games were during 6th and 7th edition or even 8th using the old book, I'd like to discuss the many possible ways an ogre list can be composed, and how such a list should be played to maximum efficiency.
This is because I find that no matter what I try, I always come back to your run off the mill MMU Maw slaughtermaster/bsb/firebelly setup in the end.

The following is a rundown of the basic list constructions I have tried using the new book, the way I find they should be played, their strengths and weaknesses and my personal experiences with different lists. I am thinking tournament sized 2000-2500 points lists, and neither much larger nor smaller.

1: The typical Approach
Most ogre armies I've seen have been consisting of multiple medium sized units with varying character and support unit choices, and will typically include the following:

A Slaughtermaster (maw) general usually equipped with fencer's blades, greedy fist and either an arcane item or glittering scales, a BSB with crown of command and either a Firebelly or a butcher with either scroll or hellheart.
Core will usually be 2-3 units of 6-10 bulls/ironguts (with discipline standard) with maybe some 10 man gnoblar trapper roadblocks.
Special will typically include a unit of 3-4 mournfangs with dragonhide banner and either yhetee flankers, 6-8 leadbelchers or 6-8 maneaters and of course 2-3 single sabretusks and maybe a Gorger or two
Rare will usually include either dual ironblasters or one ironblaster and a monster of some sort (rarely a giant though).

With a main battleline all within the LD/BSB bubbles, six-dicing a Large Trollguts most magic phases is a common tactic, statistically limiting incomming damage by 50%, making for fairly easy and powerful list to play, especially you use clever deployment to make sure your main battleline is wisely placed.

This list is very strong and excels at all phases, but will easily become a bit boring to play in the long run.

A common variation of the same basic approach is a character setup of Tyrant/BSB/2 firebellies which will lose your chance of having trollguts making for a slightly more agressive but also less reliable playstyle.

The supported Ogre Horde
The second most used army will typically be based around a horde of core ogres of choice (typically ironguts with discipline banner) led by both a Tyrant and a Maw Slaughtermaster, a Runemaw BSB and special/rare choices varying the same way as the above, except a couple of gorgers are usually included in this type of list.

Tactically this army plays much like explained above, except for typically a greater focus on chaff/warmachine hunting to prevent the horde from getting redirected and gunned down.

A strong approach which is also pretty easy to play, but offers even less tactical diversity than the typical approach. Still gets kind of boring in the long run, I reckon.

3: The Ogre Gunline
A Death or Heavens Slaughtermaster, maxing out on Leadbelchers (one unit typically led by flaming banner BSB), dual ironblasters, dual scraplaunchers and lots and lots of Gnoblar trapper roadblocks and of course a unit of poison/sniper maneaters makes for a fun and shooty list. The lack of a stand and shoot option on leadbelchers severely hampers the effectiveness of a defence-based ogre list, and in the long run you will end up missing out on the key strength of the ogre army: The fact that basically everything hits pretty hard in combat.
My verdict is that it's fun for laughs, but overall one of the weaker setups.

4: The Icy mountains list
A surprisingly effective (against non-ItP Low-average LD armies) if a bit less reliable setup is a fast list based on clever use of synergies between different units. Multiple units of Yhetees, dual thundertusks and a couple of mournfang units, maybe a longstrider hunter in a sabretusk unit with the army led by a Death Slaughtermaster which uses LD debuffing hexes to maximize Yhetee efficiency by making their targets more likely to fail their fear tests. Whether failing a fear test caused by Yhetees combined with their aura makes enemies unable to strike back is still debated, and I recommend this only in environments that allows the yhetee trick to be utilized. Even a minimum sized yhetee unit attacking a large unit with doom and darkness cast on them will be prone to breaking even though they are steadfast, and the yhetees have a fairly large chance of pursuing their targets.

This list makes for a fun and rarely seen ogre list which most people will laugh at at first, but the look on their faces if their death-star is run down in turn two by a unit of three yhetees is priceless. I wouldn’t use it in tournaments but in a fixed game against armies with an average leadership of 7-8 it is definitely worth a try. Surprisingly, this setup has also proved considerably effective against other ogre armies. Namely because it plays against our own weaknesses. Just be sure to cast aspectof the dreadknight on your yhetees and it can wreck ogres.

And that is the ways I have personally tried myself. Namely due to lack of models, I haven’t tried things  such as triple Stonehorns, dual core ogre hordes with little to no support or the cheeseball scouting Maneater horde. But what is your setup for more obscure armies? How do they work and what do you do to make them work? Please discuss and share.

I think it is safe to assume that it's hard to really think outside the boxes you've already defined.

Simply compare the number of units in the Ogre book to other books and you'll find out why the Ogre lists are often really similar.

We have access to 2 types of characters: close combat or casters. Currently, the 8th edition favors heavily level 4 casters so it's easy to go the Slaughtermaster's way. Unlike other armies, we don't have access to a support type character (warrior priest, banshee, etc.).

Now for core, we either get Ogres or Ironguts. Gnoblars definitely have their uses and I'm not sure trappers are always the best choice. You can get 2x10 regular gnoblars for 10 trappers. That's 2 drops and 2 possible redirectors. But I digress.

Special is where it's at for Ogres and you are limited to 50% or your army. Ironblasters are good at dealing with pretty much anything in the game so are almost always a double auto-include. Mournfangs are the other poster-boys in special selection. They bring high mobility and great armour saves and will just clean non-elite infantry. Getting flanked charged by these guys is bad news for pretty much any unit in the game. Leadbelchers and Maneaters are both great units and can play crucial roles in your army. Leadbelchers provide long range heavy firepower while retaining regular ogres' close combat capabilities. Maneaters can play a plethora of roles and are just really strong.

Rares are where it's often hard to find points. Both choices are decent but somewhat expensive and you often have to sacrifice something else to get them in.

When you build a list, you often end up thinking:

- I need a BSB
- I'd like to have between 4 and 6 levels of mages in my army (dual level 2 Firebellies, single Slaughtermaster, level 4 + lvl 2 (butcher or firebelly), even 3 level 2s is possible)
- To Tyrant or not to Tyrant?

This will usually tie up a lot of points. I run my characters pretty light and I'm sitting at 718 pts for 3 characters at 2500. Now getting 25% core means you have to spend 625 pts on either Ironguts or Ogres. You are now left with less then 1250 to fit in your support pieces which are mainly the special units. The themes you've identified are the main ones and probably those whose playstyle fits most players.

Now we've also seen some other think out of the box lists.

The Skragg list in an example of that.
The triple big monsters is another.

Thing is, those kind of lists are expensive and can be hard to run in certain metas, which is probably why they are rarely seen.

I'm curious as to what else we could probably run.

Unlike other armies, we don't have access to a support type character (warrior priest, banshee, etc.).

Though I agree with most of your point, I personally considder the Firebelly more as a support type character than a caster as he comes with a Breath Weapon which is the main reason to take him over a butcher who has access to far better lores in my oppinon. Also, the Lore of Fire is mainly based on Ranged Attacks that do need Power Dice to be cast. A firebelly with a great weapon in a unit of bulls (Sorry. but I still call them that out of habit) will add a bit more combat-power (for one round at least), and on top of that he has a nifty anti-fire ward making him synergize really well with Trollguts.

Well, I'm gonna take a msu list to a tournament in a couple weeks.  I will only have one unit with more than 3 models in it.  I think its going to be alot of fun and (hopefully) fairly effective.

I love the thought behind this whole idea because I too am having trouble coming up with a list that I like.  Something that I have been experimenting with is using large blocks of gnoblars (40+) to break steadfast.  I don't think I have the configuration right for it yet but the basic idea is to use the gnoblars to block steadfast right away and let your ogres win the fight in one round of combat. 

Granted they are slower than ogres so that can be tricky, maybe using a more shooty list to compensate?

Other than that I really don't care for the standard ogre list, I don't use mournfangs (yet?) but I love Maneaters to pieces and they are often the reasons I win.  I am also experimenting with a single Stonehorn and its been great to attract enemy war machines but other than that has struggled to find a place in my list. 

Another type of list that could be interesting to run is a super fast in your face combat army.  I'm talking about both scouting and vanguarding Maneaters ( 2 units), mournfangs as fast support, maybe some yeti action.  Something I also rediscovered in the rulebook is the Rampager's Standard.  Re-rolling charge distance for a large unit of Ironguts with the Dragonhide banner could be deadly and unexpected.  Unfortunately, I come up with more ideas for army lists than I have time to play so if anyone could try one of these and get back to me that would be awesome.

I see no mention of any use of a Gnoblar Horde unit(s)? 
Later on I plan on experiment building lists with Gnoblar Horde(s) to fill out at least half of Core points.

A horde of WS2 non undead troops can hardly be a good idea no matter how sneaky and cunning a plan they might be a part of, as far as I can tell. charging an ogre unit into a block of many enemy ranks, leaving a tiny space for a unit of 6+ minimum sized ranks of gnoblars to engage into might be a nice idea against things such as Skaven Slaves and other cheap steadfast road block units though.

In a word - Unreliable

Most 'outside the box' lists rely on gimmicks and obscurity for their wins, and as soon as someone has played it once they, as Bush would put it "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice... You fooled... you won't fool me again." 

Kind of hard to express the normal or standard lists are boring to play.  I have Ogres and have played the same basic variation of them for a long time now.  I have NEVER used a Slaughtermaster and have most currently gone on to running a Hunter on a Stonehorn despite the cries of "Don't do that!!".

It really is sad to tell you the truth that you can't run more fun or strange lists and win regularly.  But I suppose that's why they remain obscure and unplayed, because they aren't successful.  Skill takes you quite a long way, but in the end skill can't beat the 'point-click' overpower of Tzeench discs, Nurgle Daemon Princes, Cannon-palooza, Dark Elves in general, or the Inumerable Slann variants.  If you've run any obscure lists with continued success I'd like to see the list and see the write-up.  I continue to attempt to work new units into my army as I live for story even if GW tries to crap on it constantly.

No sane fantasy enthusiast could ever blame a Viking using a possessed flying saucer as a skateboard or the Warhammer equivalent of Einherjar for being overpowered, simply because of how original and awesome the concept is.
However on a serious note I'd like you to expand on your key to success using a Stonehorn Hunter. Sure it hits a tad harder than a normal Stonehorn, but I have yet to find a magic item combo which makes the additional 135-180 point investment worth it... what exactly do you equip him with and what else do you field in the same army. And most importantly, what is your tactics for said army?

However on a serious note I'd like you to expand on your key to success using a Stonehorn Hunter. Sure it hits a tad harder than a normal Stonehorn, but I have yet to find a magic item combo which makes the additional 135-180 point investment worth it... what exactly do you equip him with and what else do you field in the same army. And most importantly, what is your tactics for said army?

I'm not saying it's the best choice for how you spend your Hero allotment of points, but if I were to use a Hunter on a Stonehorn - I would equip him with Sword of Anti-Heroes, Charmed Shield, and the Other Trickster's Shard.  I would then point him at whatever character I want to kill and go get him.

To afford this at 2500 pts, you are looking at a SM general and a BSB as your other characters, but that's okay - the hunter+stonehorn would love regen or +1 strength or stubborn.

At 3000 pts... take a maw butcher and a beasts SM - enjoy the carnage you can do with Savage Beasts or Pann's.

-Snark

Ive not tried many crazy lists. But the hunter on the stone horn with Other Tricksters Shard puts the fear of god into daemons!! you have no idea! lol
Its a big investment, but it didn't draw a lot of attention from my opponent, he was more focused on my death star. So it got in the flank of his Khorne and herald and tore them a new one Think I got bull gorger off on it too S7 impact hits, re-rolling all his saves mmm...
 
So yeh theres one use... but it wont work again he will just throw a DP or a Greater daemon at it!
Chris

I have used the large cat/hunter unit to some advantage of late against TK, WE, O&G as well as Daemons - few expect it and it can do some serious damage (and has worked well in the Watchtower scenario). And yes I had lone tusks in the list as well (I am not stupid enough not to use the best chaff in the game).

Is it better than Mournfangs? No but it does work under the right handling.

My list is...

Lord: 320 Pts
Nazroth the Devourer
Tyrant - Heavy Armor, Iron Fist, Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickster's Shard

Heroes: 594 Pts
Serage Singegut
Firebelly - Great Weapon, Dispel Scroll
Turonath and Grinder
Hunter - Sword of Striking, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Endurance, Stonehorn

Core: 996 Pts
Sons of the Feast
8x Ironguts - Full Command, Dragonhide Banner
Mawngrels
8x Bulls - Full Command, Ironfists
The Giantslayers
8x Bulls - Full Command, Ironfists

Special: 311 Pts
Brothers of Rot
4x Maneaters - Full Command, Banner of Flame, Extra Hand Weapon, Heavy Armor, Scout, Immune to Psych
Shard
Sabertusk
Tuska
Sabertusk

Rare: 170 Pts
Mountain Shaker
Ironblaster

As I said, it's hard to get away from the stiff core choices of Guts and Bulls in my mind.  The Stonehorn as was said before is usually ignored in favor of the larger bull and gut units rolling forward.  And then there's always the ironblaster which most people like to shoot at first.  The horn survives a single cannon shot and the 5+ is helpful for the Hunter to remain alive.  I like dark throwing on the move which can usually hammer the random cannon.  Maneaters scout which also makes most people focus things on them as well.  I use the Sabers to give myself slight placement help but in general I just put the horn out by himself where the Hunter's LD 9 usualy helps him survive the Frenzy.  Is it a great combo?  Nah, Do I expect to win a lot at Adepticon with it?  Nah, just like the list.  Oh well, as I said I like to build stories for my army and this one has some fluff floating around.  Anyway, what's the break-down of this Yhetee list?  I would like to add some Skinwolf Yhetees (Nothing like the skin falling off an Ogre who got lost in the mountains and is in mid transformation into a Yhetee).

Some less common builds I've seen or at least pondered.

1. Triple mournfang. 3x4 mournfang units will tear up any infantry list. Traditionally backed up with ironblasters and the usual stuff, I've seen a variation that was as many mournfang and stone horn as possible.

2. Horde of horde of ogres. Buy a General and a BSB. Then buy ogres. Lots of ogres. You can easily have three hordes at 2.5k and still have points for general, BSB, sabres and an ironblaster. Never tried this but i suspect it would work well.

3. Horde of maneaters. Scout, stubborn, in your face turn 1. A very effective build if a bit risky. Seen it once at a tournament although it met its match against a high elf BOH list.

A monster mash list might be quite fun,
Hunters on stonehorns/ with cats
Bulls/guts as min core
3x Mournfangs
3x packs of cats
2x stonehorns 
Not sure it would be very good at all but it would be fun ;D How I would play it is use the cats on the flanks using them in the same way as standard cavalry are used, use the mournfangs how you would use MMU of guts or bulls, then  the stonehorns in support. I think the cats would do better with the hunters in support ld9 yes please but taking the third stone horn would also be usefull.
I would try and combo charge having the mournfangs charge in the just having the stonehorn in at one corner because even if he is just in base contact he still gets his full compliment of attacks. You will get hurt by magic but most shooting should bounce off the horns or the 2+ save of the fangs and the army is so quick you should be in combat eating people by turn two.

Just some thoughts,
TLK

My super speed gimmick list:
Tyrant with: Warrior Bane; Charmed Shield; Greedy Fist; Arabyan Carpet; Heavy Armour
Bruiser with: BSB upgrade; heayv armour; Fencer's Blades; Opal Amulet
Hunter with: Sword of Anti Heroes; Longstrider; Ironfist

4 Ironguts with: Bellower; Standard Bearer; Lookout Gnoblar; Banner of Eternal Flame
4 Ironguts with Bellower; Standard Bearer
4 Ironguts with Bellower; Standard Bearer
4 Ironguts with Bellower; Standard Bearer

10 Sabretusks
1 Sabretusk
1 Sabretusk

6 Maneaters with: 3 additional hand weapons; 3 great weapons; heavy armour; Poisoned Attacks; Scout
6 Maneaters with: 3 additional hand weapons; 3 great weapons; heavy armour; Swiftstride; Vanguard

If you thought normal Ogres were fast... No magic defence, so kill the mages fast.

Here is the list I ran earlier this evening.  It is a departure for me since it does not include mournfang and includes not only both a thundertusk and a stonehorn but a hunter.  It worked out very well against warriors of chaos.

Lords

1.  Tyrant- Armor of Silvered Steel, Great Weapon, Talisman of Preservation
2.  Slaughtermaster- Level 4, Dispel Scroll, Glittering Scale, Fencer's Blades

Heroes

1. Bruiser- BSB, Heavy Armor, Dragonhelm, Ironfist
2. Hunter- Stonehorn, Greedy Fist, Enchanted Shield

Core

1. Ogre Bulls (22)- Full Command, Ironfists
2. Ironguts (16)- Full Command, Banner of Discipline

Special

1. Sabertusk
2. Sabertusk
3. Sabertusk


Rare
1. Ironblaster
2. Ironblaster
3. Ironblaster
4. Thundertusk

Here is the list I ran earlier this evening.  It is a departure for me since it does not include mournfang and includes not only both a thundertusk and a stonehorn but a hunter.  It worked out very well against warriors of chaos.

Lords

1.  Tyrant- Armor of Silvered Steel, Great Weapon, Talisman of Preservation
2.  Slaughtermaster- Level 4, Dispel Scroll, Glittering Scale, Fencer's Blades

Heroes

1. Bruiser- BSB, Heavy Armor, Dragonhelm, Ironfist
2. Hunter- Stonehorn, Greedy Fist, Enchanted Shield

Core

1. Ogre Bulls (22)- Full Command, Ironfists
2. Ironguts (16)- Full Command, Banner of Discipline

Special

1. Sabertusk
2. Sabertusk
3. Sabertusk


Rare
1. Ironblaster
2. Ironblaster
3. Ironblaster
4. Thundertusk

What was the result of this list against Warriors? What was your opponent fielding?

JJ

Here is the list I ran earlier this evening.  It is a departure for me since it does not include mournfang and includes not only both a thundertusk and a stonehorn but a hunter.  It worked out very well against warriors of chaos.

Lords

1.  Tyrant- Armor of Silvered Steel, Great Weapon, Talisman of Preservation
2.  Slaughtermaster- Level 4, Dispel Scroll, Glittering Scale, Fencer's Blades

Heroes

1. Bruiser- BSB, Heavy Armor, Dragonhelm, Ironfist
2. Hunter- Stonehorn, Greedy Fist, Enchanted Shield

Core

1. Ogre Bulls (22)- Full Command, Ironfists
2. Ironguts (16)- Full Command, Banner of Discipline

Special

1. Sabertusk
2. Sabertusk
3. Sabertusk


Rare
1. Ironblaster
2. Ironblaster
3. Ironblaster
4. Thundertusk

Sorry - but thats an illegal list - we cant have 3 Ironblasters

The list totals 3545 pts, so Grand Army rules allow for up to 4 IB's.  Seems like an odd pt total though.

Also, I'm very surprised this list was effective, considering that at 3k most opponents have you out deployed, out magic'd and out chaffed - and your only magic defence was a dispel scroll.  Really surprised you don't have a runemaw banner for at least one of your hordes.

Back On Topic (mostly): 

The Hunter w/ Stonehorn has the problem that faces any character+monster ... challenges!  One solution to this is to make him stubborn either through Spinemarrow (with the above OTS build I posted) or through CoC (perhaps Warrior Bane, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem, Crown of Command).  That way you don't get challenged by a champion, lose the attacks for the Stonehorn and the thunderstomp (because the hunter kills it on I3 and you can't thunderstomp the unit when in a challenge - it only hits the challenger) and then lose combat to lots of static res (+5 static is not to hard to reach).  The fact that the stonehorn has frenzy and must overrun makes it significantly easier to negate impact hits.  I would imagine any experienced opponent could reliably set up this situation - making the Hunter-Stonetusk lose combat by 3 to 4 pts and flee/get run down.  So stubborn should be important.

As for other "non-traditional" lists:  How about using multiple units of 3 ogres as redirectors/supporting chargers/chaff?  Basically pretend they are chariots (3x Str 4 impact hits) with 9 wounds, T4, up to 9 attacks plus 3 stomps, and a 5+, 6++.  They are still pretty cheap at 96 pts, and move 6 plus can march (march offsets the lack of swiftstride - so I would rate their movement as about equal to a chariot).  I know someone (was it Phazael?) was talking about a successful tournament list that used this tactic - and it sounded interesting to me.  I wouldn't call it a true MSU list because I would still have a couple of medium to large combat blocks (9-12 bulls or IGs with characters).  Thoughts?

-Snark

The result was an overwhelming victory.  He had tried some unconventional tactics himself and used the Chaos Dragon, a Deamon Prince, The Troll King along with a large unit of trolls, a bunch of Dragon Ogres, 2 Hellcannons, a low level caster on a disc, a couple units of Chaos Hounds and a horde of Forsaken.  When he yielded at the end of turn 4 he only had 5 trolls left.  I had lost my Thundertusk and probably a total of 8 or so ogres.

This list I wrote up above was actually a tad bit off...I had taken out the glittering scale, banner of discipline and enchanted shield to get it down to 3500 before the match.  I don't normally like not running without a banner but was really banking on the re-roll for the bsb and hoping to get extra combat resolution from the stonehorn backup.  The list was a last minute idea and will be tweaked a bit before playing again.  I will likely reduce my warriors by a tad bit to get back some of the items.

Sorry - but thats an illegal list - we cant have 3 Ironblasters

How the forum goes in same old boring circles...

There are two ways to build armies in the main rule book - one of them allows up to four Ironblasters.

Ok, but when discussing an army that is outside of what is considered "the regular way" (ie <3000), you'd usually specify or maybe make a hint at a grand army by say, throwing the total points at the bottom of the list.


Anyway...back to normality.

I have run a 3 stonehorn list once and found it really fun. Certainly takes away from the whole "oh ogres always have x/y/z"

Not to derail this thread further but the internet regular way is not the regular way, only the most vocal.

From a very small minority at that.

I am pondering on running a spam of gorgers in a few games the coming battles, but SoM will probably kill that tactic since we are looking to add some new breath into the game.

I haven't run this list since my first ownership of Ogres (I sold them and have since restarted the army after a few year vacation) but I'd run an MSU tactic.

3x3 units of bulls w/ musician

2x4 units of Ironguts with musician and banner

2x2 units of Leadbelchers w/ musician

2 Gorgers

I'd usually run a Butcher and a scroll caddy and a Tyrant, maybe a Bruiser or Hunter.  My tactic was to run my Bulls up and bait charges, then counter charge with my Ironguts w/ characters in them.  The Leadbelchers would run flanks and Gorgers pick off any shooting units, warmachines, or stragglers.  My Bulls (being leadership 8 for rally) would then rally and perform side and follow-up charges in following turns.  It worked out really well back in sixth and seventh edition.  Haven't thought to try it in eighth but it might be worth a try!

Obviously there are sub-variations are the above themed lists - most of them will work in the 'normal point range' of 2400-2500 pt.
2000 pt is often too little to have an optimal balanced game.

The gunline list can be specialized further to focus on removing enemy casters with feedback scroll etc. and scout man eaters to provide flanking defense. Just having a huge shooting capacity wont win many games, but as I said the variations are many and the gun line can be a very solid list indeed.


To the above lists, I miss the character-heavy list. Not the gutstar as such but a list focused on Lore of beast, which IMO is fantastic with the Ogres.

Army setup goes down a little something like this:
Tyrant, tooled for battle
Sm lvl4 beast, choice of magic items + gw (no protection as he will hide in 2nd or 3rd row)
Bsb, gw and 4++
Bruiser, gw and 4++, or sword of antiheroes+ one-use 4++ (can be sacrificed for a poor match in a challenge)
Butcher, loGM, dispel and gw (can be sacrificed for a poor match in a challenge)
Alternative a firebelly with ADH, IF fire attacks with  is needed against trolls or the like (but avoid otherwise).


All 5 characters goes in the same unit of about 10 bulls - the bulls wont do much fighting so dont bother paying for IG : ) All the combat characters go in front row and dish out pain, sure you may strike last but dont worry. The impact hits will be insane (but few sure) and the beast synergies will make your opponent cry.
+3T?
+3S and +3A?
+1S and +1T?

the remaining points should go into 6x sniper+poison eaters with fire banner, ironblaster and lots of disposable units to make sure nothing get in the way for your character block and you can pick the target you want to fight. deep units of gnoblars work, SP works and units of 3 ogres works too.

Surely, it is not a list you want to play every time but it has power - and was not listen above. Vary the army to your liking : )

3. Horde of maneaters. Scout, stubborn, in your face turn 1. A very effective build if a bit risky. Seen it once at a tournament although it met its match against a high elf BOH list.

Give it poison instead of stubborn and it's not losing combat.

True! I was planning a horde with brace of pistols and scout/poison. That's 36 poisoned shots a turn!

But it's also half your army in points, it splits your army in half and they're going to have to survive without general/BSB nearby. I dunno if you want to risk going without the stubborn safety net.

True! I was planning a horde with brace of pistols and scout/poison. That's 36 poisoned shots a turn!

But it's also half your army in points, it splits your army in half and they're going to have to survive without general/BSB nearby. I dunno if you want to risk going without the stubborn safety net.

You may want to re-do the math : ) You get 24 shots - the horde formation grants the extra attacks in CC only. Although if you go all out for craziness.. give the 3rd row great weapons...

Putting 1100+ points in one unit seems 'a bit risky' and not too much fun for more than a few games.

I run several things that others seem to poo poo on the board, but do really well with them.  My biggest recommendation for bucking the trends are:

25 Gnoblars w FC
This unit is dirt cheap, gives you a point of fortitude, and is a great little chaffe wrecker.  The fact that more people do not take Gnobbie blocks completely baffles me.  There are so many good uses for this kind or unit that it merrits its own thread, really.

Carpet Bruiser
Bruiser on a Flying Carpet w either GW or HA+IF is a pretty amazing utility unit and fairly cheap.  With his high statline and four wounds, he can eat a lot of shooting and pretty much pull off the same sorts of tricks that the similarly costed Peg heros from other books can.  Before I got derailed on my DoC tangent, I had been experimenting with this guy and was pretty happy with the results.  He would seem to be vulnerable to cannon fire, but with his four wounds and the fact that you have an entire army of cannon screening for him, he is really quite good at getting in against gunline armies.  If you are looking for something really unusual to try out, he is your guy.

I might have to try that carpet bruiser, might be just what I'm looking for in strange and new things to try out.  Seems like he has a fair amount of uses too.

I run several things that others seem to poo poo on the board, but do really well with them.  My biggest recommendation for bucking the trends are:

25 Gnoblars w FC
This unit is dirt cheap, gives you a point of fortitude, and is a great little chaffe wrecker.  The fact that more people do not take Gnobbie blocks completely baffles me.  There are so many good uses for this kind or unit that it merrits its own thread, really.

Carpet Bruiser
Bruiser on a Flying Carpet w either GW or HA+IF is a pretty amazing utility unit and fairly cheap.  With his high statline and four wounds, he can eat a lot of shooting and pretty much pull off the same sorts of tricks that the similarly costed Peg heros from other books can.  Before I got derailed on my DoC tangent, I had been experimenting with this guy and was pretty happy with the results.  He would seem to be vulnerable to cannon fire, but with his four wounds and the fact that you have an entire army of cannon screening for him, he is really quite good at getting in against gunline armies.  If you are looking for something really unusual to try out, he is your guy.

You are not alone ; )

The gnoblar units work:
-cheap
-allows steadfast for speed bumping
-extra drop in deployment
-you can have a lot of them!


Also the flying bruiser will work, but I do prefer the fire belly - 20" fly and then a S4 breath-weapon in the flank on any horde.

Ooh, flying firebelly too, I like it.  Do you leave him at lvl 1? 

And for the gnoblars, do you use trappers with them too?  I find that just the thought of taking extra dangerous terrain tests is enough to make some opponents pause.  For that small upgrade you can take quite a few guys off of a horde or simply make high armor targets sweat when they charge.

Also, another comment on the beasts character deathstar list.  Make sure you have units of trapper gnoblars because enemies will take two dangerous terrain tests when they charge a unit of trappers, once when they charge due to Curse of Anraheir and another when they get there because of the trapper rule.

Carpet Bruiser
Bruiser on a Flying Carpet w either GW or HA+IF is a pretty amazing utility unit and fairly cheap.  With his high statline and four wounds, he can eat a lot of shooting and pretty much pull off the same sorts of tricks that the similarly costed Peg heros from other books can.  Before I got derailed on my DoC tangent, I had been experimenting with this guy and was pretty happy with the results.  He would seem to be vulnerable to cannon fire, but with his four wounds and the fact that you have an entire army of cannon screening for him, he is really quite good at getting in against gunline armies.  If you are looking for something really unusual to try out, he is your guy.

Huh! Perhaps I will give this guy a try. Although a firebelly does have some attraction here as a flying flamer (plus a 4+ ward against those new flaming cannons!).

Ooh, flying firebelly too, I like it.  Do you leave him at lvl 1? 

And for the gnoblars, do you use trappers with them too?  I find that just the thought of taking extra dangerous terrain tests is enough to make some opponents pause.  For that small upgrade you can take quite a few guys off of a horde or simply make high armor targets sweat when they charge.

Also, another comment on the beasts character deathstar list.  Make sure you have units of trapper gnoblars because enemies will take two dangerous terrain tests when they charge a unit of trappers, once when they charge due to Curse of Anraheir and another when they get there because of the trapper rule.

Choosing 'Curse of Anraheir' instead of the other very potential lor of beast spells is a hard choice. It can work of course but with a dedicated list with close to 50% of the points spend on characters, getting the right spells is essential - with luck and a lvl4 it can work out but I wouldnt bet too much on it.
But that is also mainly because I run my gnoblars without trappers. My meta dictates few hordes against ogres so the dangerous terrain test is not too good and then the effort getting Curse of Anraheir cast is too high, in my eyes. That dangerous terrain test on the lots of MC running around now is not nearly painful enough. I'd anyday risk 16,7% or 33% chance for a wound to make an important charge.

Trappers is also worth another unit of [naked] gnoblars - not too bad either. But at this level of details, it depends on your meta, the opponent and so on.

I have furthermore found that very few players want to charge a deep gnoblar formation - the fear of a counter flank charge is huge : )

The bruiser is a little cheaper and has some armor options for conventional shooting, plus better attack statline if you use him as a chaffe killer or flank hitter.  He is also a less tempting range target for the enemy than the fire belly.  Both have merits, to be sure, I just had better luck with the Bruiser.

Sure, the bruiser kills in combat.

I run the firebelly lvl1 for a fireball and the breath weapon. Really that can be enough for my games : )

But when the opponent tries to hide that juicy lvl4 behind the lines away from my poison/sniper-eaters flying the firebelly behind the lines is gold.

I beat a warriors of chaos army list on Tuesday with the following...

2 giants
Stonehorn
Firebelly
Greasus
Ironblaster
4 mournfang (still cant use these guys properly)
bsb with runemaw
About 12 ironguts

Unconventional enough for you 

Sometimes Giants just work for people. Alas, mine have never achieved anything, in any army. Did get Greasus do anything mind? I can see him butchering a Chaos guy who probably wasn't expecting the damage the mace can do...



Also, I'm really liking the idea of a carpet firebelly. I may have to get around to modelling that. Thing is, I'd want some good target saturation going on - would a Stonehorn and Ironblaster be enough?

That's what I'm hoping for, I haven't tried it yet but in a few days I'll get it a run.  You can also hide the bruiser/firebelly behind the stonehorn first turn to avoid being caught by cannons and then hopefully zoom away after that

I have been toying with the idea of a list with minimal characters.  Just a level2 firebelly.  It comes out to be a hoard type army with a big block of Iron guts supported by lead belchers and a ton of chaff.  and an iron blaster or 2.  Not really a new army type but it puts alot of meat on the field

Well, I took my msu army to a 26 man GT this last weekend and went 4-1 vs nurgle demons, dark elves, convenrtional ogres, wood elves, and woc.  Id say it was a success for sure.

post your list please - IF you feel like sharing ; )

I'll do my best, at work using my phone to post
Tyrant, ha, if, sword antiheroes, tali pres, giantbreaker
Bruiser bsb, ha, sword striking, ench shield, tali end
Lvl 2 maw, scroll 5 pt sword
Lvl 2 beasts 5 pt sword
7 guts command DHB
3 guts muso
3 guts muso
10 gnobs
3 belchers muso
3 belchers muso
2 single sabres
3 maneaters champ, stand
3 maneaters muso
2 mournefang muso stand
2 mournefang muso.
I think that's it if I remember correctly.  Some command may be off.

I've often wondered how MSU cope without getting in each other's way. Will have to find a full on tactica for that...


Also, Swiftstride and Scout on a Maneater unit is surprisingly disgusting. Some seriously nasty turn one flank charges happened there.

If you could give some battle reports or summaries of how your battles went that would be awesome.  I like the MSU list, would like to hear how you play with it.

I'll try to do some quick write ups tomorrow if i can find the time.  No access to a computer right now and it would be a nightmare to try to do it on my phone.

As the wood elf guy who played him, he essentially was running Gutstar with a lot of orbiting MSU units.  He Amber Speared my general off the table right off the bat on turn one, or our game might have been closer.  Most people are not used to fighting an old school well run MSU list and Juan has gotten a lot of practice within our group, which he put to good use in the tourney.  Like all GTs, a little luck was involved in pulling in the win, but you have to make the opportunity for that luck to happen and he did a really good job of that.  The good mix of early harassment and light shooting units made his list very difficulty to pin down and I struggled to finish off units towards the end of our game.

I don't know how MSU will fare once DoC players figure out how good Lore of Slaanesh is, because any interference with your movement really gives this style issues and AE Cacophonic can end the game against MSU in one cast.  But against the standard faire, its a curveball people are not used to dealing with and has tons of tactical options.

I guess you can call 7 ironguts with 2 characters a gut star...but I really don't.  It looses effectiveness pretty fast if people concentrate on it with any type of shooting or magic.  Thankfully, with everything else on the table, they rarely do.   They see the easy to get points on the table and can't help themselves.

The whole idea behind this list is to use the small stuff to create the charge with your tyrants unit that you want and let him do his work.  Between him, the BSB and the dragon hide banner, there isn't much in the game that will be left standing after a charge.  The problem is with 1600+ pts in very easy to kill basically chaffe units, it can be challenging to have the tyrant and friends kill enough for the win.

As for AE cacophonic, well, I guess it will end the game vs msu, but a purple sun/pit of shades ends it vs anything else.   Pick your poison.

Well the beauty of MSU is that you can stagger units to limit descent angles for Psun to rack up casualties and pit is not going to knock that big of a chunk out of your army before you get stuck in.  I am not sure if you ever did this, but one nice thing with MSU is you can plow into a unit with a caster and basically assasinate him with those three packs, unless we are talking DE, Slaan, or WoC guy. 

The reason I called that a gutstar is you seemed to always have at least three characters stuffed in there, which lets you play the wall of fat game resulting in stuff like when my Treekin pushed one wound on the unit. Obviously its not the giant 14 man point denial blob of death that a lot of people run, but when you have all those nice three pack escorts hanging around to swat off the flankers, its actually hard to focus effort on killing it (shooting and magic aside).  I think if you make the changest to the character loadout you were talking about, it might be worth making the BSB a Maw Banner guy and having him sit in the back, especially with all those little units around.

Again, it was a great list and was actually very fun to play against.  My only frustration was playing 400 points down from the outset, but that stupid 3+ ward failed on the first try every game all weekend, so that was not entirely shocking.  If I had it to do over again, I would probably have put the characters in deep corners to zip them around behind, but I had it in my head that you would blast the treeman instead.  But, you did everything right with that list (which is not easy) and I made some errors, so aside from the maneater who would not die I do not think luck played any real role in that game, you just flat outplayed me.  It was a real fun game and the one I though about the most this whole week because of how tactical it was.  You should do a writeup of the Batrep secion of this board, because after seeing how you played it really reafirmed my belief that deathstars are not the best way to take the Ogre army and that people gave up on MSU/MMU way too soon with the new book.

My game with Fred, on the other hand, was one of the most demoralizing games I have played in rescent memory.  I was never even remotely in that game and one AE Cacophonic basically destroyed 1700 points of my army.  Some day, Fred and I are going to play a game where our armies are relatively equal!  But not this year since he is rocking DoC and I am on a Woodie kick.....

My point about the psun/pit was that if you play a different style of army, ie horde or mmu, is they will hurt you a lot more than they will a msu army.  Cacaphonic will hurt the msu, but everything has its counter is what Im trying to say.

Honestly, the only time I ran 3 chars in the tyrants unit was against you, and that was due to a deployment mistake.  I only had one of my 3 packs within buffing range so when the beast butcher went in that one, I realized the maw guy had to go with the tyrant by default.  However, if I had to do it all over again, I would have put all 4 in there vs Philip because I knew I was gonna have a very hard time making up the points he was gonna get off me....I was right.

I've thought about putting the maw banner in there, but I'm trying to stay as high as I can with my comp so I can play from the lower tables if possible.  In that vein, I'm not sure if putting 2 bellies in the place of the 2 butchers will hurt my comp more than they are worth.  I'm gonna have to do a lot of play testing.

Ok, started the bat reps over in Tales of Conquest...I'll try to get all 5 games in, however some are kinda (very) fuzzy haha.

I've often wondered how MSU cope without getting in each other's way. Will have to find a full on tactica for that...


Also, Swiftstride and Scout on a Maneater unit is surprisingly disgusting. Some seriously nasty turn one flank charges happened there.

...but you cant charge on first turn if you scout??

You can if you're the 2nd person in the first turn, just not if you're the one who starts.

Yup. I actually forgot about that, but the only time I got a turn 1 charge was when I was going second anyway (when I went first last match I only had Swordmasters as an option, so yeah...)

Need to keep that in mind! I thought it only applied to Vanguard.