Ogres now a top tier army?

So with WoC & DoC getting the 8th edition maveover, I've been reading a lot of players in other forums ranking Ogres as a top tier army. I have always considered the fatties as upper middle, but with 2 vacancies at the top we might have just moved up some.

Should I start feeling bad playing my fatties now, cause they're considered an OP army now?

It depends a bit on the metagame of the region you're playing.
The Dutch GT had 4 ogre armies in the top 5 (number two spot was dark elves)
So here they are top tier.

I haven't really read the daemons book yet, but a build warriors of chaos would bring to a tournament wouldn't be bad for ogres.
In Holland daemons and warriors weren't top tier with the last book anyway.

The issue with the metagame is that tiers are decided by tournaments and we mostly play one day - 3 games tournaments.
This means you will have to win big every game and that is what ogres can do (with a little luck), where some armies just need to grind 15-5's or 13-7's to get to a win.

Should I start feeling bad playing my fatties now, cause they're considered an OP army now?

Never!

Get a Delorian, preferably built by Doc, then some plutonium and wind your clock to 2010 - find a Daemon opponent and when the battle is over return to present day.

No more easy victory points when facing Ogres.

Should I start feeling bad playing my fatties now, cause they're considered an OP army now?

No, definitely not! For the best part of 7 years, we struggled, and played a pretty mediocre book. We had a cookie cutter army list, and we still got stomped most of the time.

Sure, Ogres are strong now, but I certainly wouldn't say OP. Sure, double Ironblaster is a little cheesy, but loads of armies can field cheesy double rares. I mean, double Terrorgheist Vamps is just as bad.

Get a Delorian, preferably built by Doc, then some plutonium and wind your clock to 2010 - find a Daemon opponent and when the battle is over return to present day.

Exactly this. Go back three or four years, and even the less-skilled DoC player could wipe the floor with Ogre armies. Now, the playing field has been levelled. Ogres have been taken up a notch, and Daemons just knocked down a peg.

On a personal note, I am glad to have another mid- to high-level army to field. And, I don't have to contend with the very real prospect of getting trounced every time I field my beloved fatties

JJ

In my opinion, Ogres remain the strongest of the 8th edition books.  I would rank us tied with Skaven for third overall, behind Lizardmen and Dark Elves.

So keep this in mind when playing friendly games.  We can play some of our softer units (yetis, hunters, gorgers, special characters)  and still be competitive with most other armies.

If you bring an ultrahard tournament list to a friendly game (that's not against LM or DE or Skaven) then you probably should feel bad.

Against those three, I say bring it.

-Snark

I have got to ask, how are Lizardmen in the top 3? They certainly aren't in any of my local circles, and indeed in many of the conversations I have on the net...

JJ

I guess Top tier is subjective.

It's also assumed Lizard men are top tier in my local meta. So much in fact , that no one plays LM here.

Does anyone care to explain how?

I'm not necessarily saying anyone is wrong, I am just curious as to how they are top tier. I don't see much in their army list, that poses a threat to most of the lists local players run...

JJ

So with WoC & DoC getting the 8th edition maveover, I've been reading a lot of players in other forums ranking Ogres as a top tier army. I have always considered the fatties as upper middle, but with 2 vacancies at the top we might have just moved up some.

Should I start feeling bad playing my fatties now, cause they're considered an OP army now?

I find it very difficult to actually rank the armies. Usually it becomes personally opinion due to someone being unable to deal with an army because of they're play style or list building etc. It is certainly fair to say that ogres are very strong, mostly due to our amazing core choices. To your second question, no you should never feel bad about the army you are playing. As previously stated tone down your army accordingly for friendly games.

Does anyone care to explain how?

I'm not necessarily saying anyone is wrong, I am just curious as to how they are top tier. I don't see much in their army list, that poses a threat to most of the lists local players run...

JJ

Wait, what? Double Slann + Skink poison spam doesn't scare people? Unkillable Slann + Stubborn Saurus Horde + Temple Guard Horde doesn't scare people? Heck, there's even a Oldblood on Carnosaur MSU list that's winning tourneys (granted, that list is piloted by Mike Hengl, who's easily a top-5 player in all of the US, but still). What are your Lizard players running? They should be putting the fear of the Old Ones into people.

Wait, what? Double Slann + Skink poison spam doesn't scare people? Unkillable Slann + Stubborn Saurus Horde + Temple Guard Horde doesn't scare people? Heck, there's even a Oldblood on Carnosaur MSU list that's winning tourneys (granted, that list is piloted by Mike Hengl, who's easily a top-5 player in all of the US, but still). What are your Lizard players running? They should be putting the fear of the Old Ones into people.

+1

Yep, screw Lizards!

Get a Delorian, preferably built by Doc, then some plutonium and wind your clock to 2010 - find a Daemon opponent and when the battle is over return to present day.

Exactly this. Go back three or four years, and even the less-skilled DoC player could wipe the floor with Ogre armies. Now, the playing field has been levelled. Ogres have been taken up a notch, and Daemons just knocked down a peg.

Let me get this straight, ogres aren't overpowered because Daemons used to be?

You guys have short memories, take your Delorian back another few years to pre-SOC hordes of chaos book, daemons sucked pretty hard. Does this make any difference to ogre's current power level? Did daemon players "earn" an edition of a cheesy book if they played the hordes of chaos daemons?

Ogres are certainly one of the top 8th ed books if not the top 8th book. Now, VC have some powerbuilds that can really contend with anything the ogres have to offer and I really think WoC might top ogres off the "top 8th army" spot. There's some seriously strong builds in the WoC and I suspect we'll see them doing well very shortly in the rankings. DoC on the other hand are way down in the power level but it's too early to judge how well their top builds will do.

And now that we've hit half the armies revised for 8th (if you count Chaos Dwarfs), there aren't many pre-8th heavy hitters remaining. Lizardmen and Skaven remain standing proud with Dark Elves still a major threat.

Ultimately the situation now is that there really isn't that much distance between the top tier and the bottom tier, certainly nothing that can't be overcome by a good player with a decent list. 4

So: yes, ogres are definitely top tier. Do you have to feel bad? No, just don't deny it. You can always handicap your list if it bothers you.

This may be straying from the original point of the question but; The fact that Ogres are a decent army now is really great for me personally. I haven't played Warhammer in decades and am just getting back into it. All the rules have changed since i last played and it's a bit of an uphill struggle getting in the zone with my army. This is great because it means that whilst i learn what i should and shouldn't do with the army i am also likely to win a few games. This means i can keep a keen interest in playing the army because even on a bad day (of bad unit choices, bad decisions, the wrong magic/ armour etc etc) i am still in with a chance of at least representing.
This was not the case when i started playing Warmachine where i lost every game i played and eventually conceeded that i was rubbish at it and gave up playing. Entirely my fault, dont get me wrong, but i still jacked it in 20+ games and no wins was just a bridge too far.

Being (kind of) new to a game system and still having a chance of enjoying a win is a good thing. When i have got better at using the ogres i can "dumb down" my list and try new things and test out different options (like using the not as frequently used units like yhetee's, gougers etc) and still have fun playing without upsetting others with cheese lists.

As a matter of interest (as i am a bit sort of newer to Warhammer, kind of) where do Tomb kings (who have had an update in the last couple of years i think) and other armies like woodies and high elves come in this list of greatness?

Out of the 8th edition books, Ogres are among the best.  I feel empire and certain VC builds are slightly stronger (and have tournament data to back up that assertation), but the difference between most of the 8th edition books is fairly modest, especially when compared to the broad gulfs of power in 7th (Dark Elves vs Beastmen, Skaven vs last Orcs and Goblins, ect) that persist in the game to the present.  I have said and still feel that the Ogre book is the measuring stick all future releases should aim for:  lots of strong choices offering multiple builds, but almost no must haves or never takes.

There are basically a pack of solid books in 8th (Empire, VC, Ogres, O&G) and two really horrible books (TK, DoC), but even the horrible books have a couple one trick ponies in them and are not nearly as crippled against other 8th books as what some books endured in the tail end of 8th edition.  The problem is that the big three are still in the game and it will be a while before they are brought into line with 8th (DE, Skaven, Lizardmen).  If Ogres appear to be the top army, it is because they have some matchup quirks that allow them to do well against the God Tier of 7th, where other 8th edition books tend to struggle.  Put Ogres up against Empire, non Scream VC, Orcs and Goblins, or even the two duds of 8th and the games are much more balanced.

ps- Daemons were uber strong for exactly six months during 7th, right until the Dark Elf book came out.  Then Doggy Deathstar VC happened.  Then Lizards got Double Engine Slaan.  Then Skaven double Abomb happened.  Daemons were well on their way to mid tier before 8th edition rules changes hobbled them even more.  If it seems like the old Ogre book sucked against them it is because it did with its 80 point maneaters, lack of ironblasters, and Bull tax.  Once the 8th edition rules hit, even the old Phail Kelly Ogre book got a ton better, especially against Daemons.  The new book was even stronger in that matchup, mostly because no one figured out until later that Nurgle was the best way to counter Ogres (something I have been doing for the last two years), but now that Bloodletters have been nerfed into oblivion every netlisting daemon player is going to be running Plaguebearer hordes where the red lawn mower hordes used to be.  And to be completely fair, Ogre players have their own version of this player, the double Ironblaster Bubbleguts Gutstar Hellheart MFC Wagon TrippleSabre netlister.  Every army has a crowd running the cookie cutter stuff.

I'd vehemently disagree, daemons were still top dog in 7th right to the end. I'd still peg them as having been top tier in 8th too especially if SCs were allowed. At 3K no comp daemons still took the biscuit.

It's irrelevant now of course. I don't think the daemon book is horrible and I think we'll need to wait and see how the builds stack up. Mono-nurgle with double skullcannon is looking to be a favourite right now.

As a matter of interest (as i am a bit sort of newer to Warhammer, kind of) where do Tomb kings (who have had an update in the last couple of years i think) and other armies like woodies and high elves come in this list of greatness?

Here is how I see the army power breakdown:
God Tier: (Any moron can win with these.  Takes imense skill disparity to overcome.)
1) Dark Elves - Get all the toys and still have points left to spend on fluffy stuff.
2) Skaven- Skavenslaves and tons of unbreakable attrition based mechanics, but occasionally dice kill them.
3) Lizardmen- Slaan is stupidly good.  Saurus criminally underpriced when compared to other core infantry.
*) Scream VC- Probably number two army but this guy goes in knowing he has no friends when he leaves the event.

Mid Tier: (Strong armies that when run by experience players tend to win events)
4) Warriors- Only a couple of builds, but all good with ridicoulously strong characters and monsters.
5) Empire- Immense versitility and synergy.  Tons of point denial.  Nearly unbeatable in the right hands.
6) Ogres- Solid in all phases, but with certain weaknesses in their statline.
7) Bretts- Strong in all phases, but masters of none.  Massive point denial and good meta character builds, plus stomp proof.
Vamps- Point denial kings, even without the etherial scream stuff.  Characters second only to WoC.

Lower Tier:  (Weak armies that can do well in a good player's hands but struggle against good builds run by experienced players)
9) Orcs and Goblins-  Savage and Night Goblin builds are suprisingly good as is their gunline build.
10) Chaos Dwarves-  If you have the stuff to beat the K'Dai, you win, otherwise you don't.
11) High Elves- White Lion Deathstar, Etherial Mage, and Mind Razored Sea Guard win a lot of games.
12) Dwarves- Boring, but can be effective thanks to uber reliable cannons and cheap elite infantry.
13) Daemons- Randomness, unsurvivable heroes, and severe limitations on their LD Bubble, but two retardedly underpriced cannons help a lot.

Crap Tier: (Might suprise people with unfamiliarity, but basically showing up to win Best Sport/Painted)
14) Beastmen- Bestigor Star, Doombull, and Herdstone Cluster are all they have and one cannon pretty much does in half this army.
15) Wood Elves- Couple interesting tricks, but you basically autolose against several common armies (notably Ogres and WoC) due to huge book inefficiencies.  Best movement in the game, however.
16) Tomb Kings-  Sorry, guys, you got Cruddaced.  This book is why they now have someone looking over his shoulder for every book since.

Most of my tourney experience has borne this out, but I will say that I am talking about pure battle wins here.  A lot of people have been shying away from (or greatly toning down) the uper tier armies for various reasons.  Many expert players have moved on from the God Tier to avoid the soft score shellacking they get from playing said armies (Lenus was a good example of this), so they are fairly unrepresented as of late.

As a most rescent example, I went to the Bay Area Open which had basically no Dark Elf armies in attendance and only a couple unoptimized skaven lists, but several strongly made Lizardmen armies.  Ogres won overall, though he only faced one Lizardman player and all other Ogre players were .500 or below.  All five Lizardmen armies finnished 4-1 on the weekend, which is not an unusual occurance in my personal experience. 

Take from all that what you will, and remember that power rankings are one thing, but there are always matchup quirks that shake things up, like Ogres having certain edges against Skaven and Lizards, while struggling against Beastmen.

I'd vehemently disagree, daemons were still top dog in 7th right to the end. I'd still peg them as having been top tier in 8th too especially if SCs were allowed. At 3K no comp daemons still took the biscuit.

It's irrelevant now of course. I don't think the daemon book is horrible and I think we'll need to wait and see how the builds stack up. Mono-nurgle with double skullcannon is looking to be a favourite right now.

That will be the cookie cutter build, for certain.

But on your original comment, as someone who attended a lot of GTs at that time, Daemons won no major tournaments after Dark Elves came out and indeed rarely advanced past any of the Hard Boyz semifinals, even with the universally banned Kairos in the mix.  They were certainly a strong book, but the top tables were nearly always dominated by Doggy Death Star, Slaan Double Engine, and DE Cookie Cutter for the last year of 7th.

I don't think you can really divide the armies up like that. Everyone is going to disagree somewhere. Dark Elves number 1? I'm surprised, I've not seen Dark Elves rocking anybody's socks recently. I also think Chaos Dwarfs are surprisingly low down, a full cheese CD list with hobgob hero chaff, magma cannons and all that is a really tough proposition.

Tiers are artificial divisions. I think anything over three tiers just isn't going to work. Even three tiers is tough. What might be better would be just an "Upper tier" and a "Lower tier". I also think the differences between the tiers are way smaller than you make out. A decent Wood Elf player can easily crush a poor "god tier" player and I've seen it many times. I don't think you need "immense" skill disparity to cover that gap. The difference between the top and the bottom is not so big at all. Indeed a good wood elf player can often run circles around a lesser player with a top list.

High tier: VC, DE, Skaven, Lizardmen, Warriors, Ogres

Mid tier: Empire, Chaos Dwarfs, O&G

Low tier: High Elves, Dwarfs, Bretts, Wood Elves, TK, Beastmen.

Daemons I don't know about yet but I'm inclined to put them in the mid-tier. There's potential in the new book and I think we'll see it soon enough.

That will be the cookie cutter build, for certain.

But on your original comment, as someone who attended a lot of GTs at that time, Daemons won no major tournaments after Dark Elves came out and indeed rarely advanced past any of the Hard Boyz semifinals, even with the universally banned Kairos in the mix.  They were certainly a strong book, but the top tables were nearly always dominated by Doggy Death Star, Slaan Double Engine, and DE Cookie Cutter for the last year of 7th.

Huh, well that wasn't my experience at all. Daemons dominated Ard Boyz in 7th to the point of absurdity around here and even in 8th Daemons not only made it to the finals but in the last Ard Boyz the top 3 tables by round 9 were just Daemons and Skaven.

Interestingly while there were a few Kairos builds the Daemon armies that rose to the top including mine didn't have Kairos. Game 9 was me vs another Daemon player. I had a Keeper, he had a GUO.

I think I side with GI's view on things, but I'm curious as to why O&G is considered to be so good by you guys. I've played with and against it a fair bit, and my conclusion was that they were slower Beastmen (-1M, -1I) that traded in powerful magic for a bit of artillery shooting, re-rolls for +1S on T1, and Ld issues for Animosity (so about the same). My chart looks something like this (I will point out that armies within the same tier are roughly in alphabetical order, as I think they are too close to call):

Top Tier: You can do more or less whatever you want with these armies, and they'll at least compete.
1. Dark Elves - Great at more or less everything, all for less than what it probably should cost.
2. Lizardmen - Best magic in the game if you ask me, and some of the best grind-it-out infantry points can buy.
3. Skaven - Sometimes the dice screw you over. When they don't, you'll usually win.

High Tier: Strong armies with few weaknesses and lots of tools.
4. Chaos Dwarfs - Blast away, and bring a K'Daai Destroyer to mop up. Not exactly riveting, but effective.
5. Empire - Cannon-mania combined with easy access to excellent armor, more buffs than you can shake a stick at, and access to every BRB Lore? Sure, why not?
6. Ogre Kingdoms - Good shooting, good speed, good combat ability, and sneakily good magic. A very well-rounded force that also benefits from being composed of the most efficient troop type in the game (Monstrous Infantry).
7. Warriors of Chaos - Powerful individual units, bananas characters, and troops that crush the opposition pound-for-pound. The number count is low, the magic phase is a little blah, and the shooting is mostly breath weapons, but that's about all you can say that isn't a glowing review.

Medium Tier: Solid armies that have weaknesses which can be made up for by player savvy and some build diversity.
8. Daemons of Chaos - This is a bit preliminary, but the games I've gotten in against them suggest that their randomness is more Skaven than it is O&G, and the default gifts are rather underrated. Their poor defensive ability keeps them around this level, though.
9. High Elves - While they are an amazing offensive elite trooper army, their Core has to be used creatively in order to be effective, and they do not deal with taking damage well.
10. Vampire Counts - Great characters, nasty short-range shooting, but they spend a lot of points and effort making up for their awful Core, and most of their power units are rather vulnerable to the cannon.

Low Tier: Limited armies that require power-listing, a savvy general, and/or a bit of luck to do well.
11. Beastmen - If you bring Hordes with lots of magic or Minotaur character spam, they can compete.
12. Bretonnia - Can character-wall really well, and have some of the best artillery (for the points) in the game.
13. Dwarfs - If you castle up and bombard things with shooting before wiping them out with the obligatory great weapon spam, they'll be all right.
14. Orcs & Goblins - An army that has a lot of tools on the surface, but is undermined by bad magic, low I, and the bad habit of not doing what it's told on occasion.

Bottom Tier: In short, Warhammer on Hard mode.
15. Tomb Kings - Slow, fragile, and curiously dependent on Special Characters to do well. Easily the worst 8e book.
16. Wood Elves - This book was made last decade, and it shows. The rules paradigms this was written under simply do not apply.

O&G are not to be underestimated, they've got a tool for every situation and solid Core combat blocks. They can do a respectable shooting phase with poison shooting or heavy on the artillery and plenty of fast units. Their magic is restricted but they have some amazing spells (damned hand of gork!) and casters cheap enough to spam. Most of all they've got cheap hard hitting infantry in unlimited supply.

I know a few Wood Elf players that kick my arse regularly with them. I have this issue that most wood elf players I meet are expert players who like the army and it's really hard to tell if the army is as low tier as everyone claims but it just attracts good players or if everyone is just underestimating it.

Replying to Roth:
The gunline O&G army basically does not care about animosity in any way and can pack 2 Stone Throwers, 2 Doom Divers, 3 Chukkas, and a ton of fanatics/Manglers.  Savage Orcs are basically the most underpriced core choice in the game right now, biggun or not.   They outfought bloodletters before the DoC nerf hit, in fact.  And a well run all MMU NG army is a huge Pita to face unless you are literally dripping in chaffe.  These are things that make them good, but not godlike.

Chaos Dwarves basically are an obstacle course and most people are on to them and bring the right tools to deal with them (hi2u Dragon Helm and Dragonbane Gem) easily, and this will be especially true now that DoC have introdiced a flaming cannon into the metagame.  Plus most people running the army have not advanced past the "ram K'Dai up the pooper and gunline stall to a turn three win" phase of player skill, either.  In 8 GTs since the book has come out, I have yet to see this army ever do better than 3-2 no matter how filthy the list was.

Gutlord:
Bear in mind that Kairos (like Teclis) tends to be banned in even the most generous comp environments and that unlike Teclis, he is cannon snipable, could be sirened, and one Pit of Shades away from coughing up 700 points every game.  Daemons dropped completely off the competitive map on the west coast when 8th hit, with Fred Whitney and myself being the only two players to pull in an overall with them at a GT in Cali at all in the time since then, and we were both in the same club running the Slaanesh Tzeench with a side of LD bomb and not the stupid khorne lawn mower.  That dumb list was only hard if you did not know what chaffe was for and no one I knew who was worth a damn ever lost to it around here, though the only truely capable player actually running the khornestar with Tzeench support was Dave Inman.  I guess the east coast meta must be a lot different, although it did not seem different the couple of times I attended GTs in the Boston area.

I know a few Wood Elf players that kick my arse regularly with them. I have this issue that most wood elf players I meet are expert players who like the army and it's really hard to tell if the army is as low tier as everyone claims but it just attracts good players or if everyone is just underestimating it.

Combination of these factors, plus WE inexplicably match up well against Ogres when the WE player is setup for combat and not selling out to shooting.  Dark Elves kind of are in the reverse in this on the West Coast, as most expert players are shying away from the army now due to the comp stigma or just boredom, and the army is not nearly as deadly in the hands of a novice player.

I was always under the impression that Animosity would screw over a O&G gunline, because it would make you try and charge over your own Fanatic minefields once they had been triggered (or worse yet, make them trigger ahead of schedule). And tough/ethereal chaff like Beasts of Nurgle and Spirit Hosts deal with O&G's Fanatic barrage pretty handily. And yeah, Savage Orcs are pretty great, but NG tarpits don't really offer anything other than an anvil (albeit a hard one if there are Big Bosses in the front), and none of the other Core units do anything one of those guys can't do better. Squigs get demolished by anything with higher I, Black Orcs are an all-around disappointment, and Trolls need to be babysat (in an army full of M4 Generals unless you expose them to getting shot off the board). I'm just not feeling the love for the greenskins.

I will concede that I might be overrating Chaos Dwarfs based on others' experience, because frankly when I fought them I P-Sunned the relevant parts of the army off the table without much fuss involved. And yeah, I'm loving that fact that Beastmen have access to the Blackened Plate for a blanket 4+ Ward vs. fire for my BestiHorde. It's one of the best 20-point investments I've ever made.

Phazel: I'm restricted to a fairly small meta in the grand scheme of things, basically between NC and PA really. I'll be up at Bragging Rights later this year and that'll be the furthest afield I'll have been purely for a tournie! I'll bow to your superior experience on this.

rothgar13: any situation where an O&G has an important unit (massive mob of poisoned short bows or whatever) they'll have a black orc there to bang heads!

Chaos Dwarfs, urgh. I've purple sunned them off the board also but they're never an easy win for me. I've never actually beaten them with my ogres yet. I only know one player and he's pretty good so again, it's hard to separate the army from the player, but they really give ogres kittens. I've had the Destroyer obliterate almost all of my army single-handedly and picking up half a unit with every magma cannon shot is soul destroying. They're a strong 8th army and they can really give ogres a hard knock in particular.

I wouldn't say VC core is beastmen bad. You get what you pay for.

Well, its at the very least schitzophrenic.  The only core capable of actually fighting at all are ghouls, who can not take banners.  Skeletons are essentially the middle child of VC, as in if you are going to pay more than zombie points, you might as well go whole hog and spring for ghouls.  And zombies, lets face it, are purely annoying, as in you either see people running the giant 100 man sponge units or the little inflatable mage bunkers that hide behind the ghoulstar.  I think its fairly poor design to have nothing but tar pits in your core, though the dogs do help a lot.

Chaos dwarves?! They arent that strong. I used to scared of the destroyer but really if you hit it with shadow and lower its T by D3, chances are that it will kill itself over a few turns with the T test.

That's great but what about everyone without shadow? Particularly in the context of ogres that's not much help. Not to mention the CD player will probably shut that spell down with prejudice (although a mindrazor to the face is another good way of dealing with it).

Now, let's imagine I'm playing Ogres and I'm using Fire with Maw.

Or if you really want to ignore it for the rest of the game...throw a solo BSB with the sword o might and 2+ fire ward against it. it will be tied up and do almost no damage. mean while the rest of your army wipes the floor with his.

Sounds good although it does suppose (1) you have a highly mobile BSB (e.g. on a pegasus) or (2) your opponent is a total moron and doesn't use the Destroyer's M9 to stay the hell away from any characters with firewards.

People keep suggesting things like this like it is easy to do and every time I'm wondering how the hell you actually are supposed to do this. I have two characters with magic weapons and firewards in my ogre army (in my all-comers list) and the destroyer can avoid them easily enough.

the super flame cannon is nasty but thats what sabres are good for tying up.

It's vicious and again, if your sabres are able to get to them, the CD player is doing something wrong.

It's not impossible to deal with CD but it is a horrific matchup for ogres. Scouting maneaters are massively useful against them. Double ironblaster are going to be working overtime and if you can blast the magma cannons early you can turn them on secondary targets. Try to prevent the K'daai hitting you in a way that you can't mash it with your primary unit with as many characters with magic weapons firewards. And hope you can get to the core of his army with enough ogres standing.

I wouldn't say VC core is beastmen bad. You get what you pay for.

Hm? Core is one of the better things in the Beastmen army, when supplemented by characters. I just demonstrated that in my last game by beating the tar out of a unit of Saurus that out-numbered me. If you want a joke of a section where nothing is worth taking competitively, try Rare. It's so bad, it makes me mad just thinking about it...

@Gutlord: I agree, CD are bad news for Ogres with all those Multiple-Wound templates flying around, and I disagree with assertions other posters have made with regards to dealing with the K'daai - I think you're best off using your Sabres to jam it while the Ironblasters impose themselves on the rest of the CD artillery and your blocks trudge forward (hopefully with something like Leadbelchers or Maneaters returning fire, or even MFC screaming upfield faster than they can be shot down).

Well, its at the very least schitzophrenic.  The only core capable of actually fighting at all are ghouls, who can not take banners.  Skeletons are essentially the middle child of VC, as in if you are going to pay more than zombie points, you might as well go whole hog and spring for ghouls.  And zombies, lets face it, are purely annoying, as in you either see people running the giant 100 man sponge units or the little inflatable mage bunkers that hide behind the ghoulstar.  I think its fairly poor design to have nothing but tar pits in your core, though the dogs do help a lot.

I am sorry, but this is really quite surprising to hear.

Granted, Ghouls aren't as good as they used to be, but they are still an amazing core choice. Decent toughness, poisoned attacks, and a reasonable price.

Skeletons are lame, nothing to be said beyond that.

But Zombies have gone from a reasonable inclusion, to a must have, since the FAQ cleared up the matter on not being able to over-run after Crumble. This has made Zombies simply amazing tarpits, and if used as a speed bump are truly worth every point.

If you want a good point of reference on all of this, see below over at Carpe Noctem...

http://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Vampire-Counts-Army-Book-Overview

JJ

Ghouls are pretty demonstrably overpriced. Put them up against other 10ppm infantry and see them get pasted over and over again. Hell, run them 2-to-1 against Khorne or Nurgle Halberd Chaos Warriors and see them get annihilated. You can even try to fight a unit that (in theory) should be right in your wheelhouse like Gors, and they'll still get beat up. If they look good at fighting, it's because the rest of VC Core truly is awful at it.

But yes, Zeds make amazing speedbumps, especially if you decide to field them 4-wide to ensure they do NOT get the rank bonus and therefore crumble away all the faster. I guess that's not quite as necessary for VC as it is for Skaven, given that you can just scream into combat anyway, but it does make sure that you don't enter a combat that has Zombies in it, which are huge CR burden.

I am not saying zombies are useless, just that their one use is incredibly lame.  I mean if you like playing 40k and the thought of sticking units to a giant zombie sponge while you spam 5-8 screams a turn at them excites you, then there is that.  Outside of that sort of unit or back field mage bunkers, the unit is completely useless.  I am not sure its a great idea to design a unit whos optimum use is a tactic that most of the play base finds incredibly annoying and frustrating, if not outright overpowered.  Its the reason things like invospam got nerfed in the first place.

And yeah, honestly Ghouls were just fine at 8 points per derp.  If you really want to cry, throw them in front of saurus or savage orcs (not even bigguns) and watch what happens.....

With regard to the Destroyer posts that i made earlier, to show it wasnt a simplistic approach, if you look at what it is and what it does, it really is little threat if dealt with correctly.

1. all it really has is a 4+ ward.
2. it is T6.
3. it is flaming.
4. it crumbles.
5. its stats - Monster - M/9, WS/5, BS/3, S/7, T/6, W/6, I/5, A/6, Ld/8 with D3 frenzy attacks
6. it has frenzy and cant restrain if it wins combat. sabrecat comes in handy here.

So what does it take to nail it?
charging BSB with magic +1 sword and 2+ flaming ward. lets see how:
- if you are lucky and get the charge on him, your CR is at +2. before a strike etc. But it is M9 so good luck.
- he has 6 attacks. lets make it 8 with frenzy for fun.
- i am ignoring the S4 flaming strike at the start of the combat as its 1/6 to wound then 1/6 to fail the ward and then 1/2 to fail your armour save.
- he hits on 4s. 4 hit. 2s to wound so 5/6*4 = 3.333 wounds. 5/6 get saved so... 0.55 wounds done.
- you strike back with 4 S6 attacks = 2 hit = 1 wound = 0.5 wounds after saves.

so in effect the wounds cancel out. you win by 2CR if you charge or draw if he charges. Next turn you should win by 2. if you can stick a sabre cat in front of him then you can get a flank charge or praise be a rear charge if really lucky if he charges and wins combat.

And really if you dont find that you have the above bsb handy, just throw 10 iron guts at it. he does 2 wounds from base contact, 5 wounds from attacks and you do: 24 attacks hit on 4s =  12 attacks = 1/4 wound and 1/2 saved = 1.5 wounds. 7 wounds vs 1.5 wounds plus std (stubborn) = should stick around. he kills 2 guys a turn and you are slowly mincing him. But you have more guys and if you have just 1 round of good luck its dead. he need good luck every turn. +1 S buff or soul blight helps.

Hey are beastmen really bad? just bought a beast army 2nd hand on ebay. hope to make it work.

1. all it really has is a 4+ ward.

And anything non-magical re-rolls to wound (a nice way to think about it is the equivalent of a 1+ armour save, against most attacks it works out the same probability of wounding). It has a 2+ fire ward too.

So what does it take to nail it?
charging BSB with magic +1 sword and 2+ flaming ward. lets see how:
- if you are lucky and get the charge on him, your CR is at +2. before a strike etc. But it is M9 so good luck.
- he has 6 attacks. lets make it 8 with frenzy for fun.
- i am ignoring the S4 flaming strike at the start of the combat as its 1/6 to wound then 1/6 to fail the ward and then 1/2 to fail your armour save.
- he hits on 4s. 4 hit. 2s to wound so 5/6*4 = 3.333 wounds. 5/6 get saved so... 0.55 wounds done.
- you strike back with 4 S6 attacks = 2 hit = 1 wound = 0.5 wounds after saves.

so in effect the wounds cancel out. you win by 2CR if you charge or draw if he charges. Next turn you should win by 2. if you can stick a sabre cat in front of him then you can get a flank charge or praise be a rear charge if really lucky if he charges and wins combat.

Again, you miss the point. The question is not "how would a 2+ fireward BSB beat or hold it up" it is "how do you charge a M9 monster with a BSB on foot when the CD player knows full well to avoid the charge arc of any character with a fireward".

All of this assumes you can charge it with said character, which assumes that the CD player makes a mistake and puts it in charge range or makes a mistake and allows the Destroyer to be baited by a sabre into charge range of a character with fireward.

Any plan that starts with "I wait for my opponent to make a mistake" is a poor one indeed.

And really if you dont find that you have the above bsb handy, just throw 10 iron guts at it. he does 2 wounds from base contact, 5 wounds from attacks and you do: 24 attacks hit on 4s =  12 attacks = 1/4 wound and 1/2 saved = 1.5 wounds. 7 wounds vs 1.5 wounds plus std (stubborn) = should stick around. he kills 2 guys a turn and you are slowly mincing him. But you have more guys and if you have just 1 round of good luck its dead. he need good luck every turn. +1 S buff or soul blight helps.

Tried this the other day, pretty much this exact scenario. And yeah, he whittled down the unit for a couple of turns and then with the flaming spell obliterated the rest of the unit. All told I was able to do three wounds to him.

I'm not thinking sacrificing a unit worth what, 150 more than the monster to take off three wounds was a great trade-off.

Hey are beastmen really bad? just bought a beast army 2nd hand on ebay. hope to make it work.

They're definitely low-tier but they have one powerbuild with a few variations that is certainly competitive.

If the army you bought has tons of Gors and Bestigors, you'll be fine. It would also be nice if you get 3-4 Shamans in there too.

Ghouls are pretty demonstrably overpriced. Put them up against other 10ppm infantry and see them get pasted over and over again. Hell, run them 2-to-1 against Khorne or Nurgle Halberd Chaos Warriors and see them get annihilated. You can even try to fight a unit that (in theory) should be right in your wheelhouse like Gors, and they'll still get beat up. If they look good at fighting, it's because the rest of VC Core truly is awful at it.

Matched up against GW dwarfs it's a straight up draw, which you would expect since the point cost is the same. I would even give the ghouls a slight advantage since the dwarfs can, in theory fail a fear test.

Obviously they'll get mulched against elite infantry, but a good VC player doesn't bother to fight elite infantry, but just keep feeding them zombies the entire game.

Are ogres a top tier army?  Let's answer that by discussing the CD army until the end of time...  I'm so confused...   Aren't there threads about the K'dai destroyer already?  On topic folks!

Ghouls are pretty demonstrably overpriced. Put them up against other 10ppm infantry and see them get pasted over and over again. Hell, run them 2-to-1 against Khorne or Nurgle Halberd Chaos Warriors and see them get annihilated. You can even try to fight a unit that (in theory) should be right in your wheelhouse like Gors, and they'll still get beat up. If they look good at fighting, it's because the rest of VC Core truly is awful at it.

Matched up against GW dwarfs it's a straight up draw, which you would expect since the point cost is the same. I would even give the ghouls a slight advantage since the dwarfs can, in theory fail a fear test.

Obviously they'll get mulched against elite infantry, but a good VC player doesn't bother to fight elite infantry, but just keep feeding them zombies the entire game.

Not sure you should be using dwarf warriors as a measuring stick for good infantry.  Also, elite infantry are pretty damn common, so if the ghouls are not engaging ogres, saurus, savage orcs, empire state troops, plagebearers, gors, or so on, what are thy doing on thetable exactly?

And I wouldn't be so sure they best Dwarf Warriors, frankly. Let's pit 400 points on each side against each other:

40 Ghouls (10 x 4) v. 40 Dwarf Warriors (10 x 4)

Ghouls charge (higher M). Dwarfs pass Fear test.

Ghouls strike first. 40 attacks, hitting on 4+ (auto-wounding on 6s), wounding on 5+, allowing 5+ armor.

Math: (40)*([1/3]*[1/3]*[2/3] + [1/6]*[2/3]) = 7.40 ~ 7 Wounds (32 Dwarf Warriors remain)

Dwarfs strike second. 30 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, allowing no saves.

Math: (30)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 13.33 ~ 13 Wounds (27 Ghouls remain)

VC CR: +7 (Wounds) +2 (ranks) +1 (charge) = +10
Dwarf CR: +13 (Wounds) +2 (ranks) = +15

Ghouls lose by 5, crumble by 5 (22 Ghouls remain).

Looks to me like the Ghouls just got their butts kicked, and it's going to get worse next round. Plus the Dwarfs can invest a little in command and put an even bigger gap in CR between them. I can run this for each of the units that Phazael mentioned, and the results will be the same - to boot, some of those units can easily be buffed by characters to make the gap even larger (State Troops, Plaguebearers, Gors, Savage Orcs, etc.). They are overpriced, plain and simple.

I think a lot of the focus has been on CD because despite being a low mid army, they have a lot of hard counters to Ogres who are themselves a relatively common upper mid army, making them a more sound metagame choice than their overall power might suggest.

I think a lot of the focus has been on CD because despite being a low mid army, they have a lot of hard counters to Ogres who are themselves a relatively common upper mid army, making them a more sound metagame choice than their overall power might suggest.

You mean Chaos Dwarves?
Then yes, they are probably one of the best counter armies for ogres.
I don't know about our area, but in mine there are not really that good chaos dwarves players.
so if a good player takes it to a tournament, they win alot by the fact, that most people have never played a decent combination

Regarding the K'dai Destroyer:

I agree with Gutlord Inquisitor, it's a similar concept to the flaming phobia that erupted in my local playgroup at the start of 8th. Basically, now that there's a flaming banner, any unit can have flaming, therefore regen units like the Hellpit and Plageubearers suck.

I'm not kidding, this is what people thought. But the thing is you can't always get the units with flaming in the right place. Know which units can take a magic banner? Don't park your regen unit in front of it. Sure, we have firebellies, but we're fairly unique in having versatile flaming deployment.

It's why I don't get the paranoia about Flammable either. Yhetees are fast enough to avoid flaming things and tend to be harassing flanks, so can easily go for other such units. Wood Elves can keep Treekin and Treemen away from them with their irksome redirection shenanigans. Tomb Kings can pay for the super cheap item to get a 2+ ward for it like everyone else.

Sure, spells and flaming ranged attacks can be a problem, but your opponent either has to tailor for that, or you just have to deal with it like you would deal with any other problem.




Regarding Ogre Tier: Yeah, Ogres are really good now. We have enough tools to deal with most things bar Pit of Shades/Purple Sun spamming. Really we're not so much overpowered, we're just very capable. Though explaining how the Hellheart is balanced isn't easy...




Regarding Vamp core: Rothgar, why are you testing the unit in a horde formation? Horde is for units with a greater offensive focus. Ghouls I'd say are better going thinner and keeping ranks, and getting resurrected by heavy magic flow if possible. As least that's how I've generally seen them played. Plus, if they go against a Dwarven Horde the Dwarves have to put up with an exposed front for other units charging (but then I personally don't like Hordes, never seen them work).
But yeah, it's possible the resurrection is factored into the cost.

You can field the Ghouls 5-wide if you want, but they'll get beat up worse. The goal was to show that they are subpar compared to similarly priced choices. And hordes work just fine - did you never see the old WoC spam GW Khorne Marauders all day? Or most Beastmen competitive list? Or O&G Savages beating people up? Heck, I've seen Lizard lists with Hordes of Saurus, and they're frankly pretty scary.

quote
"It's why I don't get the paranoia about Flammable either. Yhetees are fast enough to avoid flaming things and tend to be harassing flanks, so can easily go for other such units. Wood Elves can keep Treekin and Treemen away from them with their irksome redirection shenanigans. Tomb Kings can pay for the super cheap item to get a 2+ ward for it like everyone else."

So tell me where on the table I can hide my forest spirits from a move 9 kadai, 2 flame cannons, and lore of Hashut guy again?  I am going to side with Lexy on this and say the CD players in your area might not be the best generals around.

Wrote up a big reply and my phone then forgot about needing an internet connection for the internet. Sigh. Will properly reply when I can.

@Phazael: Nuu, you guys misunderstand me!

Basically, Gutlord Inquisitor was making the point that just because the enemy army has a unit that is a foil to a unit you have, doesn't mean that they will inevitably meet on the battlefield and therefore doesn't mean the 'foilee' is useless and should be ignored.

I was supporting that point, by stating that at the start of 8th, people were extremely paranoid about their regen/flammable units purely due to the Ruby Ring and the Banner of Eternal Flame. They basically envisaged plonking their Hellpit or their Treekin or their Drakenhof banner carriers (that was the regen one, right?), and the unit immediately ending up against some flaming doom and dying.

This got to the point where those units nearly vanished - a bit ludicrous, especially with Plaguebearers. People didn't want to figure out the process of HOW those units got to one another - just that it WILL happen, and it's all Doom and Gloom.

Chaos Dwarves kind of are a special case, as their whole army has flaming up the wazoo. If you fight a lot of them then yes, you should have concerns regarding the viability of your Forest Spirit army. But there's a big difference between that and people deciding to ditch the Treeman just because they regularly see Taurox the Brass Bull across the field.

(Plus, I don't recall Lexy saying anything about my local CD players...)




@Rothgar: I dunno, I honestly never did see hordes that much. Those Khorne Marauders sure, but they were always in two blocks rather than one big one for maneuverability purposes. I think people just disliked Deathstars here for some reason - might've been magical paranoia, even with a good statline we've seen Warriors collapse to some seriously depressing Dwellers/Purple Suns/Pits/etc. We don't get normal rolls round here, we once saw Malekith and Thorek Ironbrow die turn one then two thanks to their own failures from magic/anvil. That, and the Beastmen lists I see are several Gor blocks and some hefty Minotaur unit.

But anyway, back to Ghouls - does the resurrection factor into the cost? I'd happily pay more for a unit if I could keep getting them back up...

Ah yes, the Minobus. I consider that build to be an endangered species going forward, because it's very weak to monster-mash WoC and a DoC Lash Keeper/Mindrazor FTW! list. Sure, DE could already do those things and people still fielded the Minobus, but that was one army out of 15 (16 with CD). Now there's 3 of them with a similar shtick - you're much more likely to run into one and have it ruin your day. Herdstone + Hordes was generally better at tournaments anyway, and it's a much more well-rounded army overall.

And I guess your group just doesn't favor Hordes, because if you look at tourney reports from the top dogs playing WoC, it was either Mike Hengl running his super MSU army (seriously, that dude can make just about anything work as long as he runs it MSU-style), and Furgil plonking down 120 Khorne Marauders + units that could beat whatever the Marauders couldn't on the table and marching forward. Both of them were equally successful, but I'd say Hengl's approach was more effort-intensive.

I'll also note that Horde =/= Deathstar. A lot of these units were (and are) fielded because the individual dudes are moderately priced, and they can win fights with nominal and sometimes no character support. For example, a 40-man Saurus Horde is a very solid beatstick unit and only clocks in at 470 after command. It usually doesn't need a character (Ld8 + Cold-blooded), and it grinds with the best of 'em - only the upper-echelon Core infantry will require a Scar-Veteran to turn the tide (and those upper-echelon units frequently have characters of their own), so you're not really putting the farm on that unit. If you have 2 characters in a moderately sized unit, chances are your unit is more expensive than that Horde, and I'd argue that the Horde would win in a fight.

As for Ghouls... you can factor raisability into their points cost, which is why I think they should be 9ppm. That said, the most competitive VC list (Scream-spam) only has one L1 Vampires caster in most cases, so it's not like they'll be getting a whole lot of juice from it in that case. Even the ones that do double down on Lore of the Vampires (Regen Spam and Cav star armies, namely), have it around mostly for other units (Crypt Horrors and Zombies, respectively).

IMHO tiers are completely subjective to where people play and how far ranging they get in tournament play.  We have a fair few guys around here (Kansas, US) that get out to the surrounding states and do fairly well in tournaments.  Heck, one of them went all the way to national 'Ard Boyz it's final year but then got trounced! 

Around here in local tournaments Ogres rule the roost.  In fact in our last local tourney (12 players) a VC player took first but only by a narrow margin (I think it was around 3 or 4 tourney points) with the other Ogre player taking second and me taking third.

That isn't to mention that I steam rolled in our last Master's Campaign with a Bretonnian army against WoC, VC, Dwarves, HE, and DE.  So that alone proves it's not the army but the person playing it.