Chaos hero on demon mount how do you beat it?

Ok I have been playing a chaos player who found the 2.5 ward save. On a demon steed. he has toughnes five and 5 wounds I believe. How do you beat this?

he is tzeentch with mark has ward save of 3 and has a way to reroll ones on his ward save.

Any help would be great.

Hello, just to let you know the Lord will only have 3 wounds as you have the highest stat between rider and mount (unless it is a monster in which case you can declare who you are attacking).
Ways to 'beat' the lord - combat res, if he take Crown of Command hope that he either roles badly, and out of range of the BSB or you cast the -3 leadership hex from death. You can use redirection (especially if part of a unit) and hope that he decides not to put him on a disc. Lastly if he is in combat then you can always hope some wounds get through.

Ultimately he is the best points denial general in the game, and unlike the Delf pendant lord has more offensive capabilities. As part of a unit redirect whilst you look to destroy the rest of his army.

Other than "The Other Tricksters Shard" there isn't much you can do about this guy playing as Ogres. He will most likely have the 4++ Talisman and the +1 from Mark of Tzeentch. This is then combined with "The Third Eye of Tzeentch" so he can re-roll 1s when rolling ward saves. The only other viable option is to batter him on combat res and run him down but he often has the Crown of Command so this can often be more trouble than it's worth. High Elves could destroy the Talisman that gives him his ward save but as Ogre's Sh*t creek and paddle comes to mind I'm afraid

A properly tooled tyrant with the right toys might be able to take this guy but expect a drawn out fight.

A properly tooled tyrant with the right toys might be able to take this guy but expect a drawn out fight.

I really doubt that...

Tyrants just don't have access to what the Chaos Lords can do... I would fully expect in a combination that they are both geared to fight each other, Tyrant would lose to a Chaos Lord mathematically.

Chaos Lord
MoT
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Soulfeeder
Flaming Breath
Tricksters Helm
Talisman of Preservation
Halberd or Great Weapon
Shield
Barded Daemonic
Potion of Foolhardiness

I just don't see a Tyrant ever being able to kill that guy before dying first.. Thats a purely defensive build.. You could easily swap out the Trickster's helm for some serious damage.

Ok. Let's take that build on with this one (let's assume a halberd on the chaos lord). I think the barded daemonic is more likely to be a Disc, but let's run this one.

Tyrant.
Other Trickster's Shard
Great Weapon
Mawseeker
Talisman of Preservation

Not subtle, but...

Chaos Lord has 1+ armour. Goes to 5+ for the great weapon attacks. Has a 3+ (reroll successful saves and 1s), which is a 0.44 chance of failing. Total chance of failing a save = 0.30.

The Lord has 5 WS lots S6 attacks, plus two Ws4 S5 attacks from the mount.

The Tyrant has effectively no armour but a 4+ ward. He is T6 though.

So average wounds / round from the chaos lord. 0.833 plus 0.167 from the mount = 1 wound/round exactly.

For the Tyrant, 0.52 wounds/round after saves. But of course the Tyrant has 5 wounds, the Chaos Lord has 3. So it would take 5 rounds for the chaos lord to kill the tyrant and 6 rounds for the Tyrant to kill the Chaos Lord. Now the breath and soul feeder tip the scales slightly further in favour of the Chaos Lord as well.

It's a fairly even fight, the Chaos Lord has the edge certainly but then he does cost 100 points more. Interestingly if you take the Daemonic Mount and the gifts other than Third Eye out of the equation both rack up exactly the same average kills/round (but the Lord still has initiative).

Hey Gutlord, could you run those same numbers but replace Mawseeker with Glittering Scales?  I'm betting the -1 to hit is worth more than the +1 T (but costs less)?

What about:  GW, HA, Trickster's Helm, Talisman of Endurance, Other Trickster's Shard?

Basically, whats best?  +1 T, -1 to hit, or reroll wounds (and reduction to a 5++)?

-Snark

I think the number have already being covered elsewhere here with the conclusion that Ogres cannot field a decent combat lord against WoC. Heck, even Throgg would finish a tyrant with his super-vomit.

Alternatively and extremely luck based (but so far not mentioned): Gnoblar theifstone. It's a giggle if it works, but personally I would advise my opponent to leave the 1.16+  wardsafe character at home. Fairplay does exist : ) Hopefully tournament restrictions will kill him faster than any speculative tyrant.

Well Gutlord he does last longer against that build than I thought.

But I wonder a few things.

If the Chaos Lord didn't waste points on the Trickster's Helm (I think he is wounded on a 2+, so not much help there) and instead went for some more damage output such as the Daemonsword, Sword of Striking, etc. That lord can get a whole lot nastier.

The other thing I wonder is if a SM would do better. Glittering scales and fencer's blades with healing wounds would make that chaos lord take a little longer to kill than the tyrant. Just a thought!

The SM would hold out a little longer, but not as long as a T6 Tyrant.  Either model tends to be dead after roughly three rounds and the chaos guy has essentially achieved his goal of locking down one unit while the rest of his force rolls you.  Containment and avoidance is the best play against this guy.

The SM would hold out a little longer, but not as long as a T6 Tyrant.  Either model tends to be dead after roughly three rounds and the chaos guy has essentially achieved his goal of locking down one unit while the rest of his force rolls you.  Containment and avoidance is the best play against this guy.

Yep agreed!

Right, I don't think you're going to end up in a winning situation. Even if you can actually take this guy with whatever you normally run (I routinely have a Tyrant with OTS, sword of striking and a greedy fist, who can give it a good go with the right spell buffs), then you're still pinned in place.

However, a Lord means no Level 4. I'm more concerned with a Level 4 doorstop or an unkillable Daemon Prince.

Chaos doesn't really need L4s.  Their statline is incredibly good (making stat targetting spells less effective) and their L2s have some really solid lore choices open to them, particularly Shadow and Metal.

Don't you want something to stop hex spells, or buffs for the opponent?
They are basically about combat, so if warriors become worse in combat, they basically lose their advantage at all.

Chaos doesn't really need L4s.  Their statline is incredibly good (making stat targetting spells less effective) and their L2s have some really solid lore choices open to them, particularly Shadow and Metal.

They may not "need" a level 4, but it helps! I don't see that a Tzeentch Level 4 doorstop or a Nurgle Daemon Prince do significantly worse a job as compared with this unkillable chaos lord for these purposes and you get a level 4.

The only thing worse than an unkillable chaos character is one able to cast Treason of Tzeentch or Purple Sun while he tarpits you.

Actually being able to kill stuff without risk of going nuclear is better, in my view.  And honestly, magic defense is mostly meaningless these days, beyond having a scroll and having high statlines to mitigate killspells/hexes.  Most people just six dice chuck it and f--- it on the key spells, anyhow.  I went an entire GT without a wizard and in 30 enemy magic phases, there were only two spells that got off that greatly impacted the game and he six diced both of those....

I think we're going to have to disagree on that. I respect your ability to get by without a Level 4 but most of the time when I face an opponent with no wizards or only hero wizards there's a notable advantage. I've run only level 2s quite a bit recently and even done alright (I'm a big fan of the wizard's hat on a tyrant and I've even brought it to a tournament) but I think you're grossly underestimating magical defence. There's a huge difference between having a level 2 and a level 4 if players start throwing bound spells or just a couple of dice at spells to try and get as many small spells through as possible. That's normal for my Empire, for example, and I wouldn't like to take to the table without the level 4.

Certainly playing with Ogres there's being hit by an unkillable nurgle daemon prince and being hit by an unkillable nurgle daemon prince with purple sun, I know which is going to make life worse for me.

Well, my point is when everyone pretty much 6 dices their I Win buttons, magic defense is largely moot.  If someone is doing the death by a thousand cuts thing, you just pick and choose what to eat and what one or two spells are worth stopping.  Having wide access to stubborn and a beefy statline obviously helps in these cases, but its not always essential.  Speaking from the Chaos guys point of view, I would rather reliably be ganking an Ogre or two a round than risking a miscast on a PSUN every turn with my 500pt general, but as you said thats a matter of personal preference.

I find myself thinking along similar lines to Phazael here, I have both a OK and WoC army and I would feel more comfortable going with a lv2,  perhaps even a lv3 in WoC army and dispel scroll so that I can dispel hexes/buffs affecting cc. This allows the WoC to do what they are good at, if I need a game winner I can chuck six dice at a spell without worrying that my general will explode and rejoin the warp. WoC stat line affords them more protection against the big game changing spells than OK. For ogres to face WoC successfully in combat we need the buffs provided by our level 4's - we have to be a little more careful. I would certainly not want to risk a miscast for a 500 DP (general) who will only have at max a 5+**.

WoC stat line affords them more protection against the big game changing spells than OK.

I think this makes the OK army a lot more balanced than what some people say it is, where the new WoC book I think missed that aspect.  I'm just glad no one I know plays this army regularly.