The Gutstar List Discussion Thread

Well havinh been to many tournies and other clubs, ogres seem to have made threir impact (hit) on the Warhammer community.
But one re-occurring list is the GutStar list. But why? Lets find out why a block of Ironguts is favoured by many players;
A GutStar list compromises of 25% of the army and goes straight into 1 big block of Ironguts. With a high strenght, these guys can chew through anything Toughness 5 or lower, and maul apart Toughness 6 monsters if needs be. With  a -3 to armour, kinghts and the like become tin cans after a round of Ironguts swinging at them. Another bonus, is the Leadership stat of 8. Combine that with a Standered of Discipline, and you have a Ld9 unit right there! Combine that with a character with a Stubborn Crown, and you could get a Leadership 9/10 Stubborn, S6 unit! Throw in some magic, and you could get;
+1 Strenght or/and Toughness
4+ Regeneration
Re-Roll 1's in combat
Or a nice big block for a Mountain Chimera to fight with
Ofcourse, this unit can wreck face, and because it's only 25-30% of the army, 70% are spent elsewhere to ruin the opponent's day.
But, if something like this was fool-proof, then everybody would play it. Unfortuneatly, it's not.
The unit fares a hefty price tag for mediocre stats (excluding W&A). If this unit were to run, then say good bye to 500+ points. A big issue is maneuverability, for this unit takes up a large size and can be chaffed or blocked by terrain. Another common debate is the Bulls vs. Ironguts, which is why some people think smacking face with an anvil, hurts as much as smacking face with a hammer. A large issue is the "All eggs in one basket". With character support, this unit is always subject to Pit Of Shades, Cannon Fire, general small arms shooting etc. Wittle away at this low-armoured unit and it loses it's punch.
But thats my 2¢, so feel free to further this topic on why you run Gutstar/oppose it/don't care etc.
*Special Note: I do not favour the Gutstar or hate it as I play mostly MMU style. Also this post would help the Ogre Kingdom Tactica a lot if people pitch in*

Nice job man.

I run an Ogrestar vs. Gutstar just because it's 200 points less and neither really ever loses in combat.  I'd rather spend that 200 on a cannon.

Reasons why OKstars are insane

1) # of unsaved wounds needed to reduce it's attacks significantly.  Ogres have 3 wounds,  if you do 5 unsaved wounds you have reduced a stars # of attacks from 55 to 52.  If you do 8 unsaved wounds you reduce 55 to 49.  My point being, Ogres who have absorbed 1 or 2 wounds can still attack.  In most other armies, every unsaved wound = 1 less attack in a hoard formation.

2) Ogre Charge Rules.  D3 Impact hits are NASTY, now add +1 strength for every rank behind the first.  Before combat even starts you have the potential to do 18 impacts hits at strength 6/7.  I've never done 18 impact hits with my star, but I have done over 10 a few times and it either totally destroys what you charged or they are rolling double 1's to not flee.  It's brutal.

3) You can tie up 1200 points with all of your core and all of your characters in something that is highly likely to never lose in combat.  There are no partial VP's in WHFB, so if you want to beat me...you have to kill my Star.  At the very least you have to kill every character in it.  That rarely happens....Ogrestars and Gutstars are TOUGH.


Once you run a star, it's hard to go back to MMU's.  It makes the game much simpler with a single star and a couple of sabretusks in front of it.  It's not terribly fun to play or play against..but a Star + Rune of Maw + BSB + LVL4 SM + 2 Cannons is pretty much a guarantee you win 70% of your games.

The biggest problem around my parts with a Gutstar or any Ogre star is the tooled up characters.

If you press up three characters in the front row with a champ, and they are tooled up for defense (wardsaves, scales, fencers and the like) with say great weapons, you as an opponent have a hard time inflincting any wounds and will get so many in return from impact, lots of attacks, and stomp - few survive the onslaught.

Allocation is hard to counter unless you add a vamp lord with some nasty combos or them INI test spells.

2) Ogre Charge Rules.  D3 Impact hits are NASTY, now add +1 strength for every rank behind the first.  Before combat even starts you have the potential to do 18 impacts hits at strength 6/7.  I

Impact hits are worked out at the base strength of the model and are not increased due to ranks. The only exception to this I'm aware of are Tomb King Chariots, who have a special rule that describes that.

I'm always wary of fielding a deathstar, as it can be so easy to neutralize with effective use of chaff. If you're going to do this, I would say you need a good anti-chaff plan. Leadbelchers, Firebellies, the Ruby Ring, something. Two somethings. Also, since you're all ready throwing so much at this behemoth, chances are they may try to whittle it down and neutralize it through any means necessary. Thus I expect taking the Runemaw would be rather important.

I don't favour deathstars, but I see those as two useful tips if you're inclined to use them.


This is a good topic to have, I expect I'll be adding this to the tactica thread!

2) Ogre Charge Rules.  D3 Impact hits are NASTY, now add +1 strength for every rank behind the first.  Before combat even starts you have the potential to do 18 impacts hits at strength 6/7.  I

Impact hits are worked out at the base strength of the model and are not increased due to ranks. The only exception to this I'm aware of are Tomb King Chariots, who have a special rule that describes that.

Wrong, Ogre Charge does get +rank (not just rank bonus)

I've been playing OgreStar for so long now that if I don't have a unit of at least 8+1 than it feels like I've already lost the game from the start

I think the biggest issue facing the Gutstar is the Lore of Shadow. With most of their dangerous spells not targeting a unit, it packs a whollop and near-destroys the horde if hit with an Elite unit.
I think Gutstar vs. Bullhorde games would be pretty drawn out, not sure who'd win but on the maths side:
To be points fair, for every 1 ogre you get 2 thirds of an Irongut.
A unit of 43 ogres then versus 30 ironguts amounts to the same points value, assuming no upgrades.
Lets throw in a Musician, Standered Bearer and ironfists on the unit of Bulls. You then can add another 2 Ironguts and a Standered bearer with Standered of Discipline and they are 0.356 off of each other (The guts are more expensive now)
Each unit is 10 wide. Nobody gets off the charge for Test 1:
Test 1: Ogres swing 90 attacks and hit with 44 on average. Ogres do a total of 22 wounds, and Ironguts save 4. (+18)
Ironguts swing back, with 72 attacks, hitting 36 on average. IGuts then inflict 33 wounds on average. Bulls save 6 (+27)
Ogres lose combat by 9 wounds, both have standereds and Bulls -2 due to ranks: Bulls take a Ld1 break test.
Test 2: Ogres get charge off.
Ogres hit with 10 Bulls and wound with 8 of them.. Ogres swing 90 attacks and hit with 44 and wound 22 and ironguts save 4. (+26)
Ironguts swing with 66 attacks, hitting 32 of them and then wounding 30 of them. Ogres save 5. (25+)
Ogres win combat by charging, and having 1 more rank then the opponent. IGuts take a Ld7 break test.
Test 3: IGuts get charge off.
Ironguts hit with 10 Guts and wound 8 Bulls. Bulls swing 90 attacks, hit 44, wound 22 and IGuts save 4. (+18)
Ironguts swing with 72 attacks and hit 36 on average and wound 33. Bulls save 6. (+35)
So Ironguts force Bulls to break again on a double 1.
But ofcourse, a unit is not better then the other when pit against each other, but battled against a common enemy (like Spearmen etc.)

that's a titanic battle for sure haha

I think the biggest issue facing the Gutstar is the Lore of Shadow. With most of their dangerous spells not targeting a unit, it packs a whollop and near-destroys the horde if hit with an Elite unit.
I think Gutstar vs. Bullhorde games would be pretty drawn out, not sure who'd win but on the maths side:
To be points fair, for every 1 ogre you get 2 thirds of an Irongut.
A unit of 43 ogres then versus 30 ironguts amounts to the same points value, assuming no upgrades.
Lets throw in a Musician, Standered Bearer and ironfists on the unit of Bulls. You then can add another 2 Ironguts and a Standered bearer with Standered of Discipline and they are 0.356 off of each other (The guts are more expensive now)
Each unit is 10 wide. Nobody gets off the charge for Test 1:
Test 1: Ogres swing 90 attacks and hit with 44 on average. Ogres do a total of 22 wounds, and Ironguts save 4. (+18)
Ironguts swing back, with 72 attacks, hitting 36 on average. IGuts then inflict 33 wounds on average. Bulls save 6 (+27)
Ogres lose combat by 9 wounds, both have standereds and Bulls -2 due to ranks: Bulls take a Ld1 break test.
Test 2: Ogres get charge off.
Ogres hit with 10 Bulls and wound with 8 of them.. Ogres swing 90 attacks and hit with 44 and wound 22 and ironguts save 4. (+26)
Ironguts swing with 66 attacks, hitting 32 of them and then wounding 30 of them. Ogres save 5. (25+)
Ogres win combat by charging, and having 1 more rank then the opponent. IGuts take a Ld7 break test.
Test 3: IGuts get charge off.
Ironguts hit with 10 Guts and wound 8 Bulls. Bulls swing 90 attacks, hit 44, wound 22 and IGuts save 4. (+18)
Ironguts swing with 72 attacks and hit 36 on average and wound 33. Bulls save 6. (+35)
So Ironguts force Bulls to break again on a double 1.
But ofcourse, a unit is not better then the other when pit against each other, but battled against a common enemy (like Spearmen etc.)

your math seems to be off when IG's are trying to wound ogres.  The IG's appear to be wounding 11 out of 12 times they hit, should be 5 out of 6

I've ran both but I ended up going for Bulls over IG's simply to put more wounds on the table   With 21 Bulls and 3 Heroes/Lords you have enough meat to eat a Sun or a Pit and still be a threat.  Another thing is if you have Rune Maw in that unit you can ignore most of the enemy magic flying at it and concentrate at putting your dice towards stopping those two spells (unless they IF it lol)
The only thing with a Bullhorde is you have to get the charge.  A lot of the times your S4 attacks end up being average against the enemies elite unit, your real advantage coming instead from number of attacks.  This really comes into play if you end up playing Watchtower against say a WoC list.  With that in mind many times an IG horde would be better if you know your opponent won't have a chance of rolling those anti-initiative spells

As for re-directors, I've actually been running a list with no Sabers or anything and more often than not my horde gets into combat with what I want it to!  We've actually got a lot going in our favour to make it happen:
- M6
- No fear of smaller units they put in our way (other than maybe a STank )
- Most of our points are there, so they have to deal with it some way

All you need is a bullying mentality and you should be able to reach your objectives

2) Ogre Charge Rules.  D3 Impact hits are NASTY, now add +1 strength for every rank behind the first.  Before combat even starts you have the potential to do 18 impacts hits at strength 6/7.  I

Impact hits are worked out at the base strength of the model and are not increased due to ranks. The only exception to this I'm aware of are Tomb King Chariots, who have a special rule that describes that.

Wrong, Ogre Charge does get +rank (not just rank bonus)

I've been playing OgreStar for so long now that if I don't have a unit of at least 8+1 than it feels like I've already lost the game from the start

You know, I searched and searched and it was only when I was reading the Ogre Charge rules for the second time that I realized this was true! My regular opponents won't be pleased. Thanks!

I think the biggest issue facing the Gutstar is the Lore of Shadow. With most of their dangerous spells not targeting a unit, it packs a whollop and near-destroys the horde if hit with an Elite unit.
I think Gutstar vs. Bullhorde games would be pretty drawn out, not sure who'd win but on the maths side:
To be points fair, for every 1 ogre you get 2 thirds of an Irongut.
A unit of 43 ogres then versus 30 ironguts amounts to the same points value, assuming no upgrades.
Lets throw in a Musician, Standered Bearer and ironfists on the unit of Bulls. You then can add another 2 Ironguts and a Standered bearer with Standered of Discipline and they are 0.356 off of each other (The guts are more expensive now)
Each unit is 10 wide. Nobody gets off the charge for Test 1:
Test 1: Ogres swing 90 attacks and hit with 44 on average. Ogres do a total of 22 wounds, and Ironguts save 4. (+18)
Ironguts swing back, with 72 attacks, hitting 36 on average. IGuts then inflict 33 wounds on average. Bulls save 6 (+27)
Ogres lose combat by 9 wounds, both have standereds and Bulls -2 due to ranks: Bulls take a Ld1 break test.
Test 2: Ogres get charge off.
Ogres hit with 10 Bulls and wound with 8 of them.. Ogres swing 90 attacks and hit with 44 and wound 22 and ironguts save 4. (+26)
Ironguts swing with 66 attacks, hitting 32 of them and then wounding 30 of them. Ogres save 5. (25+)
Ogres win combat by charging, and having 1 more rank then the opponent. IGuts take a Ld7 break test.
Test 3: IGuts get charge off.
Ironguts hit with 10 Guts and wound 8 Bulls. Bulls swing 90 attacks, hit 44, wound 22 and IGuts save 4. (+18)
Ironguts swing with 72 attacks and hit 36 on average and wound 33. Bulls save 6. (+35)
So Ironguts force Bulls to break again on a double 1.
But ofcourse, a unit is not better then the other when pit against each other, but battled against a common enemy (like Spearmen etc.)

your math seems to be off when IG's are trying to wound ogres.  The IG's appear to be wounding 11 out of 12 times they hit, should be 5 out of 6

I am not using direct averages but common equalisers to balance out all the equations.

This Gut-Star tactic I find is more of a pigeon hole for me. I want the leadership banner with my slaughtermaster so obviously I use a unit of guts. Well then I get stuck in having enough wounds to adequately protect my general. Which I find is around 8-10 Guts because any fewer and your general is sitting in a meh unit that could be shot or broken easily. The previous statement is likely not 100% accurate but I tend to lean on the side of caution 

Of course I dont really think 8-10 IGs with a slaughtermaster should really count as a Gut Star. It has less wounds than the normal hordes out there.

I do love my mini-gutstar (As Tryptic says, I'm normally capped at 8-10 guts/ogres.  Stops people crying foul)

There are few things greater than seeing your opponent's army wash against the sides of the star only to be destroyed by the mass of Ogres waiting their turn to attack.  (Though I don't run it in Horde.  I normally lose on rank bonus, so I go 3x4, or 3x5.  Did 3x6 once.  That was pretty fantastic.)

i always go bullstar over gutstar as i have found (and please note this is not denigrating anyone running the gutstar. its is a good tactic but i dont do it)

1. more bodies for the points. Vs a large fighty unit, the guts may be gutted whereas the bulls may have the numbers to carry the day.
2. great weapons go last. doesnt matter that bulls are init 2. i like striking before all GW models.
3. a bull is just as resilient as an irongut. A bull unit is more resilient due to extra numbers.

with all stars the following will cause you to come unstuck:
1. cheap fast cav
2. init spells. you know them. heck even dwellers will nail 1/3 of the unit. thats 6 ogres.
3. unwieldy
4. lack of tactical maneuver. ie everyone knows that you will not flee with the star as you need it in combat to make its points.
5. 1 failed panic test will cause half your armies points to run.

Not picking a fight here but do any of you guys that exclusively run star lists ever get bored?  I played one game with a star to see what the hubbub was about and it was aweful.  I crushed my opponent so badly because there was simply was nothing he could do he had an aweful time. I felt like a dirtbag too because all I I'd was move forward.

That being said I know everyone's local meta is different along with preferences, I'm just curious.

A lot of people have devised ways to fight or otherwise deal with it, so that keeps things pretty interesting, because if you get it in a fight you'll probably win, but getting it into the fight is the hard part.

Not picking a fight here but do any of you guys that exclusively run star lists ever get bored?  I played one game with a star to see what the hubbub was about and it was aweful.  I crushed my opponent so badly because there was simply was nothing he could do he had an aweful time. I felt like a dirtbag too because all I I'd was move forward.

That being said I know everyone's local meta is different along with preferences, I'm just curious.

i dont find it boring but i dont find it stimulating. it can devolve into push large block forwards and roll dice. i prefer 6 guts or 8 bulls per unit.

Not picking a fight here but do any of you guys that exclusively run star lists ever get bored?  I played one game with a star to see what the hubbub was about and it was aweful.  I crushed my opponent so badly because there was simply was nothing he could do he had an aweful time. I felt like a dirtbag too because all I I'd was move forward.

That being said I know everyone's local meta is different along with preferences, I'm just curious.

I like the tactic, but only if I've got the supporting units to keep it interesting.  So sure, the main force is rumble up and smash, but provided I have the points left for Maneaters, MFC and supporting units (sabretusks and whatnot) I'm happy.  (Ironblasters are a recent addition to my army that I'm still getting to work.  Lotta shots going wild)

i dont find it boring but i dont find it stimulating. it can devolve into push large block forwards and roll dice. i prefer 6 guts or 8 bulls per unit.

Yea that's about what i run too, maxing out at a 4x3 unit of ogres with maybe 2 characters.

So I have a question for all you gutstar users out there:

How do you deal with chaff and to keep your star where you want it?  You are easily spending 1k+ points in a single unit, this means your opponent has an equal amount to deal with it or redirect/ignore etc....  How do you keep the gutstar where it needs to be? 

Whenever I play against an unkillable horde of any type my first standard procedure is to delay it, redirect it and kill other stuff to get me the win.  What is the counterplay to this?

You might say you have your own redirectors like sabretusks but they are fragile and any competent player will target them early to get them out of the way.  After this is done what options do you have left?

This is not an attack, purely an attempt to further the discussion along.

I usually use small units of leadbelchers to do take out opponents chaff - they can move and fire, and charge and kill if need be.

2 units of Leadies, 3 Sabretusks, and maybe a couple of Firebellies. They keep the lanes nice and clear.

I do love my mini-gutstar (As Tryptic says, I'm normally capped at 8-10 guts/ogres.  Stops people crying foul)

There are few things greater than seeing your opponent's army wash against the sides of the star only to be destroyed by the mass of Ogres waiting their turn to attack.  (Though I don't run it in Horde.  I normally lose on rank bonus, so I go 3x4, or 3x5.  Did 3x6 once.  That was pretty fantastic.)

Pretty much this all the way. Nothing beats the look on their face after giving their unit a pounding and then they realize that you have more ranks than them and now their rolling a break test at minus whatever....