Lore of Heavens + Gruts Sickle...what is this?

So I played my buddy yesterday twice, he plays Tomb Kings...so keep that in mind, because IMO they are by far the worst WHFB army in terms of competitiveness (worse then wood elves I think).

So dude suggests that I change my list for one game and do Gruts Sickle + Heavens on my lvl 4 Slaughtermaster.  Just to change it up.  I was able to get 2 big Comets off on 5 dice and turn 5 I was able to get

Ice Shard Blizzard
Harmonic Convergence
Curse of the midnight wind

ALL off because I had a +6 to casting with 10 dice.   My hoard block got triple charged by a Sphinx and two huge blocks of skeletons and  I won combat by like 19. 

Is Heavens + Gruts Sickle something that is used often and is it as effective as it appeared?

In my scene yes it is

In my opinion, its the only reason to ever take a SM (or bulls, for that matter).  Heavens is a very underated lore and gruts lets you basically cast your entire arsenal every turn, in most cases.  The shootier your army gets, the stronger it becomes, but its plenty good in purely close combat armies.  I prefer to not depend on magic in my builds, so I do not use it much anymore and the bulk of ogre players out there seem to prefer the crutch that is bubbleguts, so you do not see it played as much as it might otherwise.

The main reason people don't always go for Heavens is the Butcher's tax - Lore of the Great Maw is generally best on a Lvl4, same with Heavens. Lvl 2's tend to be Beasts or Firebellies, and Death users I never really see now that the weird Deathfist trick isn't around (would like to see some lists based around it).

So, for a Heavens SM, you're stuck with a lvl 1-2 Maw user. Sometimes they do alright, but it can be a pain to accommodate. On the upside, Heavens gives Ogres a lot of funky utility tricks, and really not a lot of opponents expect it - the only other army you're likely to see it in is Lizardmen, since people love Life or Rulebook Lores.

Well if Maw is so awesome, then that butcher should not matter and he can even bring the scroll or hellheart for you, right?  My point is that if I am going to pay a butcher tax, its going to be the heavens gruts guy, because unlike the alternatives (or even a bubbleguts spammer), he pulls his weight.  Also, a Butcher with a scroll and a Sword of Antiheros can provide some needed challenge bait in your main hammer unit.

Again, not my preffered setup, but its very strong if you know how to run your magic phase.

Sadly a scroll and SoAH is over 50 pts.

I usually run a Lvl 4 Heavens with Grut's, AoD, IF for a 4+, 4++ and it has worked nicely.

My Lvl 1 Maw butcher carries the HH and an IF and becomes a late game T5 redirector (often stubborn from sig).

- Snark

I've actually found that Heavens is best on a lvl2. Spamming that Sig spell is just so awsome, and you have a second spell from a list of decent spells.

Heavens is also nice on a lvl4 but Maw on a lvl4 is too good to pass up.

If I got a second SM I would definitly go with heavens on him.

Sadly a scroll and SoAH is over 50 pts.

I usually run a Lvl 4 Heavens with Grut's, AoD, IF for a 4+, 4++ and it has worked nicely.

My Lvl 1 Maw butcher carries the HH and an IF and becomes a late game T5 redirector (often stubborn from sig).

- Snark

I set up my Heavens SM same as above.  My butcher carried the Crown of Command and the 6+ ward talisman. 

The Horde block I run has rune of maw, so the butcher wasn't going to get picked off with magic.  If my opponent in close combat wants to target the toughness 5 butcher who has 4 wounds and ignores 1 out of 6 wounds...that's fine, they will probably lose combat anyway.  Especially if they are rerolling 6's to hit/wound .

I have been running Death exclusively for like 20 games.  Most of those after the Greedy Fist nerf.  The Magic Vortex Buff in the last FAQ (You can't voluntarily charge through it) more then makes up for it.  It's super awesome when you cast a mini purple sun, stop your opponent from charging, then destroy it and charge through.  Magical Vortices are very big strategic weapons now.

Anyway, yeah....the comet especially blew my mind as to it's effectiveness.  I dig that your opponent only gets to move 1 time in a total 3 magic phases (yours,his,yours).  If you get just a little bit lucky you can get 2D6+3 hits at strength 6 at everything within 2D6 inches which goes off on 12+ (so only 6 with your grut heavens dude).  That's INSANE.  And it's not remains in play...

So yeah, I'm going to try this a few more games...but that lore is a little broken with a +6 to cast I think...

Anyway, yeah....the comet especially blew my mind as to it's effectiveness.  I dig that your opponent only gets to move 1 time in a total 3 magic phases (yours,his,yours).  If you get just a little bit lucky you can get 2D6+3 hits at strength 6 at everything within 2D6 inches which goes off on 12+ (so only 6 with your grut heavens dude).  That's INSANE.  And it's not remains in play...

So yeah, I'm going to try this a few more games...but that lore is a little broken with a +6 to cast I think...

In my last game, I had 3 comets on the board at one point (got one off on turns 1, 3, and 4).  The Turn 1 comet was pretty much in the middle of the board - and didn't go off until Turn 5 (yep... it had 9 counters on it).  On about Turn 3, my opponent and I ran to the edges of the table.  The thing still did about 35 wounds to each army.

2d6+9 Str 10 hits on everything within 10 inches is really bad...

-Snark

I'm probably being really dense but slightly confused about Grut's sickle and where the +6 to cast comes from...

Matt

Lvl 4 (4) + Grut's (2)

Does the initial marker placed when the comet is cast count towards the total # for strength and hits?

Lvl 4 (4) + Grut's (2)

Ah of course, thank you. Last time I played you got dice based on your levels and two for the winds of magic!

Does the initial marker placed when the comet is cast count towards the total # for strength and hits?

Yes it does, the comet starts at 2D6+1 hits at S5

Gruts sickle with lore of maw or heavens is so powerful. Especially with maw. With 8 dice, you can practically cast all 4 spells with 2 dice each. First spell is +6, next three are +7 with lore attribute. It's like two free power dice per cast. It puts tremendous pressure on the dispeller. They pretty much can only attempt to dispell 1 spell, 2 spells max. And on top of that, the threat of miscast is incredibly low. Even if my winds roll is only 4, I still usually do it and pretty much get off 2 spells.

Yeah, it's easy to forget how spammable LotGM is with Grut's Sickle - too many people get tempted by the bubble versions and don't just throw little spells into the important combats.


Beasts is a bit oddball for it mind, you'd have to have a list built around it. Not sure on Death, could be interesting, though as an Ogre player I have a thing against using Purple Sun.

Does the initial marker placed when the comet is cast count towards the total # for strength and hits?

Yes it does, the comet starts at 2D6+1 hits at S5

Could you explain this, please? The one time I cast it I was convinced this is not the case. Don't have my book on hand atm so I can't double check.

though as an Ogre player I have a thing against using Purple Sun.

Pretty much.  I tend to make it clear when I'm subbing out Purple Sun for the sig spell.  I have had an opponent laugh and then select Purple Sun because he rolled doubles (after I'd declined it)... turns out his naked wizard doesn't like poison sniper maneaters to the face.

On the note of Grut's sickle: I'm a huge fan, though i don't take it often because I know I forget to roll at the end of the magic phase to see if he gets moidered.  Might have to start slipping it into my list more though.

The first and only time I took it the Slaughtermaster's body guard were that unimpressed with it he got cut up Turn 1 but I am very keen to try it again and I actually think in my current army list if I dropped a level 2 caster I'd probably put it in the list in order to keep a bit of edge in the magic department.

That being said however I can see it being very effective on any magic lore we have access to.  For instance a Slaughtermaster with Lore of Beasts casting Wildform onto Mournfang/Stonehorn/Thundertusk gets a very healthy +7 to cast.

Does the initial marker placed when the comet is cast count towards the total # for strength and hits?

Yes it does, the comet starts at 2D6+1 hits at S5

Could you explain this, please? The one time I cast it I was convinced this is not the case. Don't have my book on hand atm so I can't double check.

The first marker you place marks the spot where the comet will land and acts as a counter, the wording is clear about this especially when you read the instructions for boosting it.
"On a score of 1-3 nothing happens, but place another marker on the first." This shows that the first one placed at the time of the casting counts.
"...so that the comet starts with two counters rather than one..." Same wording used again

Just while were on the subject, is it possible to have an SM sit alone and use Gruts to avoid the chance of him being killed, or is this not allowed? (i.e can a lone SM,  no unit, use gruts, and negate the wound/chance to die).

Just while were on the subject, is it possible to have an SM sit alone and use Gruts to avoid the chance of him being killed, or is this not allowed? (i.e can a lone SM,  no unit, use gruts, and negate the wound/chance to die).

No he needs to inflict the wound on a unit he has joined, so putting him on his own actually makes the item useless

Thanks for clarification on the comet.

I used the Gruts/Heavens SM in two 1600 point games recently.  One win, one loss, but close, fun games both. Now I just have to figure out how to play it right.  It reminds me of 7th edition Slann, being usually able to push 2-3 spells through with average winds of magic.

Tough to pay the butcher tax at that point, but it's a refreshing change of pace.  2x6 leadbelchers, IB, and a big unit of bulls for sickle fodder.  In the second game, the SM did far more damage to his bull unit than the enemy did, with six wounds from the sickle, plus three miscast templates- two detonations, one cascade!

For instance a Slaughtermaster with Lore of Beasts casting Wildform onto Mournfang/Stonehorn/Thundertusk gets a very healthy +7 to cast.

Beast lore attribute reduces the casting cost by one rather than increasing the roll, which isn't quite as good.  Still, I'm going to try it next game.  Stonehorn + Mournfang + Beasts/gruts SM.