Tyrant or Slaughtermaster

Starting an all comers, 2400 point list.  Would your General be a Tyrant or a Slaughtermaster?  Pros and cons? How would you kit them out?

There are litterally a billion threads on this topic here.  Do a search and ask more specific questions about the differences, if you want a more in depth analysis.

But the short answer is most prefer a SM. With the proper kit he can do everything a Tyrant can do and you get a L4 wizard to boot.

Thanks, I did a search and most of the threads seemed old. I was hoping to get some engaged discussion around this topic.

Thanks, I did a search and most of the threads seemed old. I was hoping to get some engaged discussion around this topic. 

DISCUSSION ENGAGED!!!!  I like the SM, but a Tyrant can rock peoples socks.

My favorite builds.

SM - lvl 4, Fencer's Blades, Greedy Fist, Dispell Scroll.  385

5 Attacks at WS 10 S 5 and the ability to take away magic items plus a DS  Good all around.

Ty - Sword of Bloodshed, Giant Breaker, Enchanted Shield, HA, Rock Eye, Dragon Bane Gem.  315

Holy %*$# 8 attacks at S6.  You'll kill stuff without a problem.  He has a 3+ save, 2+ ward vs fire, and he can make opponents disclose what they have, so you won't come up on anything unexpected.  If you're fighting elves or something, drop giant breaker, but otherwise, it's really nice.

Just go for the gold and do a 2800 pt game so that you can take both!!!!!!!!!!!

What we need is a proper indexed tactica thread, then all these double threads won't happen. The Lizardmen have a great one. Maybe I'll start one of those up when I've got some free time...

Toss in my 2 cents since i have ran both in this edition and army book.

SM is most likely your best choice. His stats are comparable to tyrants, and with some creative gear can be 1 mean machine. However he is going to cost you, he IS prone to Miscast explosions. I never like making my level 4 mage my general as well. Just seems like all your peas in 1 pod.

Tyrant you have a lot of options how to kit out. Do you want a tank? Do you want a meat grinder? How about a guy who runs out by himself and slays big monsters. You can have any and all. I like Tyrants for what they are naked and what they can eventually become kitted out. My fav right now is a Tyrant with HA, IF,Mawseeker/Tricksters Helm. Tough 6 with your opponent rerolling successful wounds with a 3+ armor. Nothing will move this beast with his 5 wounds and he is still throwing out good attacks and a good strength.

My arguments are biast towards the Tyrant i know, and in no way am i going to say take A over B, especially when B can buff your army to walk over people. Will a Tyrant win you the game... meeeh not outright. Will an SM win you the game, probably from buffs yea.

SM - lvl 4, Fencer's Blades, Greedy Fist, Dispell Scroll.  385

I tend to go something similar, but based on recommendations from this board I put the Dispell scroll on my L2, give the SM Maw (for regenerating wounds) and add Glittering Scales.

Most plebs will be on 6s to hit, 6s to wound (or generally 3s at best), you can regain the wounds back, and you've got the torrent of S5 attacks to back him up.

I've been having some great success running a Tyrant along with 2 lvl 2 Firebellies.

Tyrant with Fencers blades, greedyfist and glittering scales.  Gives you a 4+AS, 6+ward and will mostly only be hit on 5's and 6's.  He also has 6 S6 attacks at WS10 and if I remember correctly you even have a few points left for other trinkets.

SM - Tank
Level 3 Maw
Sword of Might
Armour of destiny
Enchanted Sheild
Dawn Stone
350pts
+1S sword, good all round saves 2+/4++ Re-rollable with regen from maw. Or as below you can use death also

SM - Blender
Level 3 Death or Maw (for regen)
Armour of Fortune
Enchanted Sheild
Sword Of Strife 
Other Tricksters Shard
Potion of Speed
350pts
He "can" be I6 for 1 turn, forces enemy characters to re-roll wards, has decent saves and 6 attacks. If you take maw you regen + chances are high for the +1S/T spells also Trollguts is super awesome! He can survive and dish out Death would make him a little more awesome for some more direct damage + Leach
This isnt typically how I run my SM's because I use them for support... but im very tempted Never really thought about taking a Super SM!
Chris

SM - Tank
Armour of destiny
Enchanted Sheild

SM - Blender
Armour of Fortune
Enchanted Sheild

Am  I mistaken or are these illegal.  I thought you can only take one of each type of magic item.

You are correct. Only one piece of magic armor per character.

Ah... just aswell you pointed that out. Had a read in BRB and you are correct
Acht well ill just use a IF instead
Cheers

Ran a Tyrant against dwarves tuesday since i figured my magic would get shut down anyways and if i took none and points he blew on dwarven baubles would be wasted.  Long story short the whole game i wished i brought my SM, anything the tyrant can do the SM can either do or almost do.  He wasnt a very strong player so it was a huge blowout even without magic but still....

...Im bias though i think i just get so much glee by pumping a unit of ogres with at least three buffs.  The looks i get are priceless.

I have the opposite experience.  When I play to win, its Tyrant, BSB, and 2 FB all the time.  Magic is fickle and despite what people claim there are things the Tyrant can do that the SM cannot.  If you just want the cheapest character setup possible for more boots on the gound, then go SM and BSB, however.

Having faced lots of different variants of Ogre lists over time, I have to say that the Tyrant, BSB, 2 FB setup has been the hardest for me to counter.

Depends on your meta, I reckon. A Slaughtermaster can do a lot the Tyrant can for most situations anyway, but sometimes you want the higher leadership, or some kind of challenge for the uber killy lord that'll most likely smack you up proper otherwise (think Vamps or Daemon Prince).

Firebellies are very popular as level 2's, however. That seems to be the common thing for competitive armies.

So why 2 Firebellies instead of 2 Butchers?

Double breath weapon nearly guarantees winning combat.

Kindleflame is a great lore attribute.

-Snark

Double breath weapon nearly guarantees winning combat.

Kindleflame is a great lore attribute.

-Snark

Thanks, I will experiment.  I have not been overly happy with my SM and would like to rely as little on the fickle winds of magic as possible.  I kinda like the idea of two butchers, saving the points, and getting some of the nice Maw buffs.

Getting the good Maw buffs is no guarantee with 2 Hero-level casters, sadly. This is where the Lore of Fire comes in - for low-level casters, it's great, because it has a strong signature spell, so if you roll one of its more "blah" spells, you just take Fireball instead. Plus those Breath Weapons really do swing combats.

Do you have to choose? I take both. 

Been looking at taken my Tyrant off the bench and putting him in the game.  What kind of kit are you giving your characters in the Tyrant + BSB +2x firebellies?

Hmm at base cost

Tyrant + BSB + 2x Firebelly (Lv 2's) = 650

Lv 4 SM + BSB = 410

Any suggestions on Tyrant kit? Pros and Cons? This would probably be a smaller games size (1000-1500).
Considering i ran Tyrant + BSB + FB/Butcher with a MMU army.

I think the Slaughtermaster wins, although the Tyrant (with 2 Firebellys) is a fair alternative.

The issue is opportunity cost.  Unless playing at a high point level (3k) - you simply cannot afford a Level 4 wizard and a Tyrant with both fully kitted.  So you have to chose:  Either a fully kitted SM, a fully kitted Tyrant, or both with little to no magic items.  You give up less by choosing the fully kitted SM than you do by picking either of the other two options.

If you want to run a Tyrant, or both with less magic items, then go for it.  The difference in these options is not insurmountable.  Plenty of people have success with the Tyrant+2 Firebelly build.  Some people have success with an Old One on Carnosaur instead of a Slaan too.  I'm not saying the difference between our Lord and Level 4 is on the same scale (ha ha), but the point is that playstyle can be enough of a factor to overcome the difference in efficiency.

-Snark

PS:  My favorite Tyrant build:  HA, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickster's Shard.  Gives him 3+,4++ with +1 Str/Atk for every character in the enemy unit and forces them to reroll wards.  Especially good against Empire, Ogres, Vampires, Brettonia, pretty much any army that runs 2+ characters in a unit.

I'd say it's more the flexibility afforded by having a Tyrant that is his strength. Since he has Ld9, you are (a) free to spend your Ironguts' magic banner choice on something other than the Standard of Discipline, (b) free to put him in a unit that doesn't have said Standard. And given that the Tyrant can actually kill several stripes of enemy characters (and thus claim their VPs) as opposed to the Slaughtermaster (who usually just ends up holding them off), I'd say yes, there is a very valid reason to take the big guy. Is he as good in a vacuum? Not really. But can you make him the better choice through army synergy? You sure can.

Problem is, the synergy argument goes STRONGLY in favor of the SM on account of magic being worth far more than, well, an additional point of strength, leadership, and attacks.  Which has more synergy--those few advantages a Tyrant brings or (virtual) army-wide buffs?

But I stand by that his greatest single thing he brings to the table is his extra attack.

What?

No his LD and splitting your eggs is his biggest asset.

Standard of Discipline works but is predictable and will no doubt be removed/changed with 9th ed next year.

To be fair, I've never really cared for Standard of Discipline - I've never needed Ld 9 that badly, so I don't see it as a big advantage for taking a Tyrant.

I think the problem is Tyrants don't get a lot that SM's don't get. With armies like Lizardmen and Chaos Warriors you get a significant difference in style and killing prowess, but I do sometimes feel the Tyrant doesn't have an added draw. If he could ride Mournfangs though...

But I stand by that his greatest single thing he brings to the table is his extra attack.

What?

No his LD and splitting your eggs is his biggest asset.

Standard of Discipline works but is predictable and will no doubt be removed/changed with 9th ed next year.

hehe. Ok, then next year the greatest thing he brings to the table will be his +1 leadership. But right now, he makes our army ld 10 instead of 9. And nine is really all that matters.

And an extra attack is really nice. Thats potentially an extra wound, an extra CR, an extra attack from a guy with great stats. but really, we are talking about an extra attack, beefed up stats on a single guy, vs. army-wide bonuses. Really, really, big bonuses.

I think you waste some of his potential if you go for Discipline instead of something else - you already have the Ld9. For example, if you're running a Gutstar, taking a Tyrant lets you put the Dragonhide Banner on the unit. And let me tell you from experience - the Dragonhide Banner on a Horde of Ironguts is terrifying.

@psychichobo: Guess you haven't been playing against many Scream lists or Leadership bombs lately, have ya?

Everything I was going to put in a reply... But just read rothgar13's post again.

@rothgar: I dunno, my Ogres seem to do brilliantly with LD these days. I actually won a game after losing a combat by 10 due to a horrific chariot assault due to rolling the snake eyes. And my Stonehorn? He doesn't even bother looking at the dice result =P

Now, my old Beastmen army... yeah... I'll try and forget about that turn one loss of 75% of my army...