ETC - restrictions for Ogres - a tough nut to crack

Now, I know ETC is not everybody's cup of tea. In my area they are pretty big and some tournaments I will be attending use the rule pack. So I was hoping for some constructive feedback 

The ETC 2013 comp pack, draft 1 is released. They have some very tough restrictions on ogres. Dark Elves and the other usual suspects have also been hit hard, so the result is a semblance of balance.

However: How should one create a army list under these restrictions?

Ogre Kingdom
Dispel scroll/Hell heart, max 1 in total.
Hell heart count as 1 DD
Rune Maw Banner counts as 1dd.
Iron Blaster/Crown of Command, max 1 in total.
Slaughter master/Iron blaster/Standard of Discipline, max 2 in total.
Each leadbelcher/sniper maneater with pistol(s) counts as 3 models towards to shooting cap.
Max 3 combined units of Mournfang Cav & Ironblaster.
Maximum of 8 Mournfang models

Rules changes:
- Two characters per unit (owner's choice) will get "look out sir" versus the following spells that automatically kill models or automatically remove an entire regiment: Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation, Dreaded 13th, Infernal Gateway 11-12 effect. Normal requirements for lookout sir apply.

I. General Restrictions:

2400 Points.
No Special or Named Characters.
Army used can be any of the currently published GW Army books. Forge World based army lists & units may not be used on the event, except for Chaos Dwarves.
An army may have up to 4 war machines and shooting template weapons. Warmachines that use a template count as a single choice in this regard. All template weapons (from magic items, abilities, etc.) count, except for spells. Bolt thr. count as ½ a war machine(round up).
Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).
All BSBs can take all the Equipment, their unit type has acces to as if they weren't BSBs.

Unit sizes are limited as follows:
Units cannot be more than 40 models nor 450 points (including all command, upgrades, magic items/banners). This restriction applies during the creation of the roster - unit size/cost may be increased during the game (for example - by joining characters to the unit). This restriction does not apply to characters.

Magic Restrictions:
- No duplicate non-signature spells(not including bound spells) and max 2 Spirit Leech
- Apart from Winds of magic, an army may only use 2 PD/DD per magic phase. After an army generates the limit all the other extra dice are discarded. This includes channeled PD/DD.
- Player can use maximum 5 PD to cast a spell. For death & shadow spells this max is lowered to 4 power dice.
- An army may use up to 12 PD during each phase.
- You may have units/abilities that actually would generate more than 2 extra dice, but any excess dice are lost
- Some magic items/abilities count as generating dice toward this limit.
- “Count as” items/abilities may never exceed a cumulative 2 PD/DD per phase. This means that player who already spent his limit PD limit, cant take more items which “count as adding PD” or add PD from channeling during game (same for DD).
- All modifiers are applied from the army list and will not change during the game.

Detailed description
Apart from Winds of magic, an army may only use 2 PD/DD per magic phase (unless army restrictions specify otherwise). After an army generates the limit all the other extra dice are discarded. This includes channeled PD/DD.

If a dice is stolen from the opponent’s pool, but your army has already generated two extra dice, the dice is removed from the opponent’s pool and then discarded.

Some special items and abilities DECREASE the limit of power or dispel dice you can add to the pool. We refer to those as “count as” items. What this means is that, if your roster includes one “counts as 1 Power Dice (PD)” item, your army can only add 1 power dice (instead of the usual 2 dice) to the pool in each of your own magic phases of the entire game (regardless of whether the item is destroyed or used up).
Please note that you cannot have a combination of items that would decrease the limit of extra power or dispel dice to below zero.

Item restrictions:
- Any item that auto-dispels a spell counts as generating 1 DD each magic phase.
- Folding Fortress is not allowed

The complete draft can be found here:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=110820

Double firebelly/ Tyrant.
It worked quite well last game

I played a tournament under these rules last weekend. There were three ogre armies. I chose to leave the ironblaster at home in order to get access to the crown, too. This turned out to be a terrible idea!

The other two armies had:
 - cheap tyrant/slaughtermaster/ironblaster, which worked very well. His team won.
 - kitted out tyrant/double firebellies/ironblaster, which was also okay.

I personally think that the ETC is rubbish.  I play on an online site where everyone wants to play ETC rules and I say nuts to that.  I want to play the game with the units that the game rules allow me.  I don't want a bunch of Tomb Kings players to make up a list of rules that nerf my army so they have a chance.

I regularly run a Tyrant and double Firebelly in games that aren't ETC but I'd imagine that it would do fairly well in games of ETC.  I don't usually run the crown of command or the Standard of Discipline so that's not a big problem for me.  I also only run MEs as opposed to Mournfangs.  Don't drop an Ironblaster, they're too good.

Meh, could be worse. At least double Firebelly + Tyrant lists are mostly untouched. You should see what they did to the poor Vampire Counts. As far as ETC goes (and I personally despise it), this isn't bad.

Still laughable that they clamped down on Ogres more when their own data (and they admitted this) showed they were not particularly successful last year.  Pretty much concrete proof of Comp by Butthurt.  Oh well if this is what you are playing, Tyrant + 2FB until they nerf it is your best option.

Is that all the restrictions to it? Doesn't seem too terrible to me. 1 Ironblaster seems a little rough considering the amount of monster mash i expect to see but then i suppose there are rules stopping that also i would hope.

I agree with Dubbel_Zout.  That comp system isn't that bad.  The list I'm taking to Adepticon this year (no comp. system at all) meets all those requirements.

I think they are imposing several ETC restrictions in order to see more variety in play, not just based on strength factor.

This would explain why they are setting the Slaughter master/Iron blaster/Standard of Discipline, max 2 in total restriction. Everyone in ETC 2012 took one of each of these in every single army (except for 1 maybe).

Lots of people are ready to criticize ETC restrictions but IMO they make Warhammer a bit more even between armies, there are some things that should be comped. People just don't like to see their toys taken away which is why its so unpopular.

I am excited for Ogres under the ETC comp because maybe we can get away from the cookie cutter builds a bit and build some more variety in the lists. Tyrant + Dual Firebelly lists or Tyrant + Cheap SM + Ironblaster lists will become quite popular I feel. Another thing we may see is people running a SM with Standard of Discipline and going without the Ironblaster in favor of some of our other Monsters.

Overall, I feel that people are usually too hard on ETC. Even if you do hate it, I think the idea to limit the cookie cutter standard is a pretty good one. Not only does it add an element of unpredictability from different players of the same army, but it will make for more interesting tourneys.

Just my thoughts,
Triddion

So many changes it can't even be called warhammer. It's a different game altogether.

I agree. Might as well call it ETCHammer, 'cause it sure isn't the game that I'm playing.

And back to the list and not if ETC comp based warhammer is good or not.

There enough treads on that.

As I said, given the blanket restrictions, not so bad. Having only one Ironblaster stings a little, but I'm assuming that the monster mash armies like Dark Elves and the (new) Warriors of Chaos can bring to the table will be curbed to compensate. Not having the D-Scroll and the Hellheart would be problematic... except that P-Sun and Pit of Shades can't be 6-diced. Ogres will still be mostly OK, except that everyone running Slaughtermaster-centric lists will have to find a Tyrant model to use.

- You still have 5 mournfangs with dragenhide banner
- 8 strong maneaters are just within budget.
- Ogre horde works (bulls, not guts), with rune maw banner no less.

All three are extemely good for their points and relatively hard to beat under ETC restrictions.

What does ETC stand for?

I believe my "Big Fire" list still works under these restrictions as long as you switch the IG horde to a Bull horde and spend the savings on a few mournfangs OR split the IG horde into two medium size units and trim some points to get a command on that....ah but you'd still need to slim off 100 point also. no time to find the link for the list right now i'll get back with it.

If you bring 14 Bulls and 4 characters and pick between Ironfists or Command, sure. Otherwise, the 450 point cap stops you from bringing a Bull Horde.

Yeah, I don't see much to cry about in this year's restrictions for ogres. The one thing that really hurts is CoC or ironblaster. I think that's going to be the final nail for the ironblaster.

I'm thinking deathstar and ditch the ironblasters for a thundertusk or maneaters.

What does ETC stand for?

European Tournament Circut IIRC.

Its a conglomeration of european torunament players that put together a, heavy, comp packet each year in an attempt to balance the game. In reality, they just change the game to be how they want it to play(unconsiously maybe)

With all the restrictions they come out with, it is no longer Warhammer, but ETChammer. The game really is completely different.

Here's my shootier list adjusted ETC. Hows that doing for ya?
(only fairly sure the numbers work out so you should double check)

-CORE
Ironguts × 9 (bellower,standard, champion, Standard of Discapline)
Gnoblars x 20 (trappers)
Gnoblars x 20 (trappers)
Gnoblars x 11
-SPECIAL
Mournfangs x 3 (heavy armour, Ironfist, standard , and bellower)
Leadbelcher × 5 (bellower or standard) {Unit A}
Leadbelcher × 5 (bellower or standard) {Unit B}
Sabertusk × 2
-RARE
Ironblaster
-LORD
Tyrant (glittering scales, talisman of preservation, sword of anti-heroes)
-HEROES
Bruiser (battle standard, armour of destiny or dragonhide) {goes in the Ironguts unit}
Firebelly (lvl2, extra hand weapon) {goes in Leadbelcher unit A}
Firebelly (lvl2, extra hand weapon, hellheart) {goes in Leadbelcher unit B}

What is Ancient Armor?

Sorry it should be Armor of Destiny.....I don't know why but I always want to call it Ancient Armor or Armor of the Ancients.

What are you going to do if you are actually forced to fight with that list?  Thats the main problem I see.  Maneaters instead of Leadies would grant some flexibility on that front, maybe.

Yeah, even thr mournfangs arn't as large as they should be.

I'd cut the trappers down to 10 man units(20 man are a little large as speedbumps without lasting any appreciable amount longer)

What does ETC stand for?

I thought it stands for European Team Competition. With a focus on team - those rules are planned for an 8 : 8 match. You therefore don't have to be able to stand up against every single powerbuild. If a matchup is bad for you, try to avoid it and get a different opponent. Also keep in mind that there is a heavy point cap each team can achieve. You don't have to win all games to get the maximum score out of each round.

[With all the restrictions they come out with, it is no longer Warhammer, but ETChammer. The game really is completely different.

Grey Templar is right here. GW says it doesn't intend Warhammer to be a tournament game. I'll lean myself out of the window and say as soon you go on a tournament, it's not Warhammer anymore, but TournamentHammer. With ETCHammer being the popular variant for team-games, which, by the way, are apparently also not intended by GW.

No, you can still play a tournament with zero alterations to the rules. In which case its still warhammer.

The ETC alters the game enough to where it actually doesn't resemble the original game.

You can of course play the games with zero alterations to the rules as written. However not with zero alterations to rules as intentend - GW writes it intends Warhammer to be a friendly game, not a tournament game, so this intended rule is obviously broken, no?
Also, I have yet to see a tournament without time restrictions - or to find time-restrictions in the BRB. So even RAW are tempered with.

Okay, sorry, that is a bit over-provokative - I'm just teasing here 

In principle, I do agree with you. ETC significantly alters the rules outside of the game (pairing) and inside. It results, at the least, in a different METAgame.

Just reading the general rules and the Ogre Kingdoms specific rules I didn't see what all the fuss is about and almost sort of liked it. They seem to be trying to stop or at least make hordehammer prohibitive and also tweek some of the casting phases problems down a little bit (particularly the more unbalanced Lores). Both of these things are a problem in my local meta and i would assume other peoples as well.

That is until I read the other army specific rules and compared them. The Beastmen rules in particular pissed me off only because I've played them a fair lot of times and don't consider them to be as weak as everyone bemoans. Their rules seem to just exempt them from the core ETC rules then also toss them a free bonus 200 points. Same with High Elves, bonus points and nothing stopping the clearly out of line oldschool items. Both of them certainly don't prohibit hordehammer or their (in my opinion) unfair casting advantages.

So yeah while I did't think the changes to how a Ogre player plays his list were bad per say , that was under the assumption that the other armies would have to make the same changes or at least changes that achieved the similar results. I'm not seeming that so I'll agree that someone was butthurt by Ogres that wrote all this.

Also I'll agree with the sentiment that GW didn't intend for this game to be a tournament game. Therefor playing it that seriously isn't actually WFB and calling ETC not warhammer while tournament play is is a bit like saying someone isn't drowning if its only in a foot of water as opposed to 10 feet. (why is that the analogy that popped into my head? I don't know). BUT! but GW saying the game isn't for tournaments and only for friendly play stinks of a cop out about not actually balancing your game very well.

.........I need a game

Grey Templar is right here. GW says it doesn't intend Warhammer to be a tournament game. I'll lean myself out of the window and say as soon you go on a tournament, it's not Warhammer anymore, but TournamentHammer. With ETCHammer being the popular variant for team-games, which, by the way, are apparently also not intended by GW.

i agree 100%

GW has admitted many times that it is not designed for tournaments,  read the rule book its all for campaings and story based fights

TournamentHammer is the best way to describe GW tournaments.  i myself love the ETC it is not designed to make every army balenced just to balence out the power builds a little with it being a teams event it stops it being realy nessesary to get the right matchups (no rock paper builds)

Okay guys.
Last time:
Talk about how to tackle the ogre restrictions in the ETC.

Not if the ETC is a good or a bad thing

Here is the list of the ogres of the winning team from last weekend:

2400 P- Ogre Kingdoms
Tyrant, General, GW, LA, The ohter Trickster's Shard, Talisman of Preservation
Slaughtermaster, Fencer's Blades, Sceptre of Stability, Lore of The Great Maw
Bruiser, Armour of Destiny, BSB
Butcher, lvl2, Warrior Bane, Scroll, Lore of The Great Maw
8 Ironguts, M, S, C, Lookout Gnoblar, Std. of Swiftness
3 Ogres, 2xHw, M
3 Ogres, 2xHw, M
5 Mournfang Cavalry, HA, Ironfist, M, S, Dragonhide Std.
3 Mournfang Cavalry, HA, Ironfist, M
1 Sabretusks
1 Sabretusks
1 Sabretusks
Ironblaster -
Total: 2400

The list doesn't look to hard, but obviously performed very well. Besides others, it even crushed an imperial list with 7 demigryphs, tank and 2 cannons.

TBH, the comp restrictions hamstring ogres so bad I wouldn't even take them. I'd go with Beastmen or Dwarfs which seem to be the most powerful armies given the restrictions.

The 450 unit camp is basically impossible for us to get around. You can hardly get 9 Ironguts for that with FC, and that isn't enough points to fill your core. So, you need to get two core units of marginal size that basically can't win a protracted fight since they're so low on wounds.

So that means you need to go MSU style, or monster mash.

You don't need units bigger than 450 points to win with ogres. 9 Ironguts is a solid unit, especially if you dump 3 characters into it.

My usual set up it 9 ogres and 9 guts. All ETC changes for me is I think I have to drop the Hellheart and probably both Ironblasters.

My list would actually work pretty well with modifications, some of which I have already made to my standard play (dropping one IBlaster, adding Gnobbies).  The main one that kills my build is dumping the Hellheart, but I can live with a scroll in its place since they won't let shadow casters toss more than six dice at mind razor or pit.  None of my units are over 8 models, either (except Gnobs), so I would be tight there.  Its the effect this hamfisted list has on other armies I play that really bothers me, honestly, but I am not here to rustle Lexy's Jimmies, so lets talk about what works:

Tyrant- Fencer Blades, Giant Breaker, Greedy Fist
Bruiser- Maw Banner, Great Weapon, HArm
FB- HH, L2 GW
FB- Crown of Command, Sceptre of Stability, L2 GW

8 Ironguts FC, Gleaming Pendant (Crown guy goes here)
8 Ironguts FC, (other FB here)
2x25 Gnobs with FC

2x Sabers
7 Maneaters, Pistols, Poison, Stubborn, FC (other two guys go here), Flaming Banner

Ironblaster

That, more or less is my current tournament list.  I guess if you chucked the HH for a scroll and maybe slapped a Frog Scroll on the other FB instead of the crown it would be legal?  I stuggle to wonder why you cannot have both a crown and Iblaster in the same list when no similar limit is placed on any other army out there, especially since the IBlaster is limited in other ways.  Well, aside from butthurt of course.

Heh, I don't think ETC allows shadow casters to throw more than 4 dice...

The ironblaster/crown change is one of the recent changes, along with the HH/scroll. For the Ironblaster/Crown I guess that's really trying to limit you to Ironblaster or Gutstar. That makes some kind of sense I suppose. I don't get the HH one at all, it already counts as a DD.

If the other war machine armies had a similar restriction on the Crown, I could at least understand it.  With the unit caps, it just plain doesn't matter if you have the crown against many armies, anyhow.  I mean, you can basically run a nearly untouched Kadai cheerleader army and have the crown in there, but one Ironblaster and the Crown suddenly becomes game breaking?  The Daemon restrictions make me laugh and cry in equal measure, especially.

Meh, should probably start another thread just for making fun of this comp before Lexy's spider sense starts tingling and he starts white knighting this again.  But on topic, I think a slight variation on that list would work well, in fact its what I was going to take to Bragging Rights if my group had decided to go to it.

Because few armies can do a deathstar like an ogre deathstar! I dunno, I think it's an attempt to take the gutstar build down a peg rather than any specific synergy between ironblasters and the crown.  Last year's comp said to me "please take a gutstar" so my guess is they're trying to make that less automatic, even if only by a little bit.

Let me know if you do plan to go to Bragging Rights. I should be there with my club.

Some interesting builds here. I see the tyrant and double firebelly mentioned a lot. How do you people use that combo to make it work?

Depends if you're talking comped or uncomped. If you're talking uncomped, you take the Hellheart and the Dispel Scroll to hold down enemy casting as much as you possibly can, and either run them in IG character-wall units or squads of Leadbelchers to give them some combat pop. Comped, you're probably looking at the Dispel Scroll and one carrying some other utility item, but the placement will be more or less the same.

Something like this might be a good way to tackle ETC without losing a lot of our power.

Tyrant                                 310pts
General, Fencer’s Blades, Glittering Scales, Giantbreaker,
The Other Trickster’s Shard

Firebelly Lv 2                              205pts
Fire, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring of Ruin

Firebelly Lv 2                              205pts
Fire, Staff of Sorcery, Gold Sigil Sword, Rock Eye

Bruiser BSB                              188pts
Heavy Armor, Ironfist, Talisman of Preservation,
Warrior Bane

Ogres x10                              320pts
Standard, Musician

Ironguts x8                              414pts
Standard, Musician, Dragonhide Banner

Sabretusk                              21pts

Sabretusk                              21pts

Mournfang Cavalry x5                        360pts
Ironfists, Heavy Armor, Musician

Leadbelchers x4                           182pts
Musician

Ironblaster                              170pts

Lords: 310pts, Heroes: 598pts, Core: 734pts, Special: 584pts, Rare: 170pts
Total: 2396pts

This is sort of the "breath attack" list that I put together a few months ago. Running the two Firebellies in the Ironguts unit with Dragonhide Banner for 4D6 S4 and 2D6 S3 breath attacks in one round. The Tyrant and BSB then run with the Ogre unit to give me two strong (monstrous) Infantry blocks, backed up by a 5 strong MFC unit with 'Tusks, Leadies and an Ironblaster for support. Dunno if this is the best way to go, but I feel like it gives you quite a lot of versatility with some strong burst damage when you need it.

Triddion

Here's my high-risk take on ETC:

2400 Pts  -   Ogre Kingdoms Army

1 Slaughtermaster @ 370.0 Pts
     General; Magic Level 4; Lore of the Great Maw
     Dispel Scroll [25.0]
     Warrior Bane [5.0]
     Armour of Destiny [50.0]
     Dragonbane Gem [5.0]

1 Bruiser @ 186.0 Pts
     Great Weapon; Battle Standard
     Talisman of Preservation [45.0]

8 Ironguts @ 389.0 Pts
     Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician
     Banner of Swiftness [15.0]
     Gutlord @ [10.0] Pts

6 Ogres @ 212.0 Pts
     Iron Fist; Light Armour; Standard; Musician

6 Leadbelchers @ 268.0 Pts
     Light Armour; Musician

6 Maneaters (light armour) @ 392.0 Pts
     Poisoned Attacks; Sniper
     Brace of Ogre Pistols; Musician, banner of eternal flame

5 Mournfang Cavalry @ 370.0 Pts
     Iron Fist; Heavy Armour; Musician

1 Sabretusk Pack @ 21.0 Pts

1 Sabretusk Pack @ 21.0 Pts

1 Ironblaster @ 170.0 Pts

Models in Army: 33

The problem is Ld8, which will result in a bad panic test at some point. Otherwise it's a very flexible list. The shooting allows me to hang back in some matchups, or to remove redirectors and dangerous, small units in others.

Ld8 with the BSB reroll isn't bad.

And that actually looks like a decent list.