Furgil Comp

The following is taken directly from a local GT organizers website, the tournament won't be until September. I thought it might be worth discussing these comp rules here, I think it's an interesting idea myself and am interested to see how it plays out.

Interested parties should check out the RockWars GT Website for more information on the tournament itself, it will be held in Little Rock, Arkansas.

http://rockwarsgt.com

Furgil Comp
This is a comp system that was discussed on The Warhammer Forum (TWF) over the summer and something I feel would be quite fun and enjoyable to use in a tournament situation.  I acknowledge it doesn’t fix every problem, and will probably create issues that we haven’t thought of yet, however I have yet to figure out a way in which it breaks the game or allows for significant Power Gaming; though it will require some limitations set on the 500pt blocks to keep out Ninja Hydras/HPA’s etc, and also figuring out how to deal with mages changing their lore.  Below “Firgil’s Comp” there is a section where I present possibly fixes/limitations on this system.  I would like feedback on whether or not you’d enjoy this system or think you’d hate it.  Feel free to talk with either of us about it at Rock Wars.

Furgil Comp Below
I (Aaron Chapman) made these rule in an attempt to allow more armies to better become “All-commers lists.” 80% of your army is locked up in the Primary Force which does not change, but you can change your Secondary Force of 500 additional points each battle. This will allow armies to bring specialized units, Characters, & Items to the Tournament that they feel ‘might’ be useful against specific threats, but would be a waste of points in most circumstances. If you happen to be paired up against a threat that these special units are useful against, then you can deploy them and cause some havoc! But be careful, you may be able to field a tailored army, but your opponent will be able to do the same.

Primary Force:

    Build a Primary Force of 2000 pts.
    Must include the General.
    Must include 25% minimum core requirement (>= 625 pts).
    This list will not change between battles.

Secondary Forces:

    Build no more than 3 Secondary Forces of 500 pts each.
    Each Secondary Force may include up to 1 Character; this Character cannot be a BSB, nor can he be a General (Meaning he cannot have higher LD than the General included in your Primary Force).
    You may duplicate characters, Magic Items, Marks, Bloodlines, Spites, Abilities, etc among the 3 different 500 pt Secondary Forces (since none of these 3 lists will ever be on the battlefield at the same time).

Army Composition & Percentages:

    When combined together the Primary List and any one of the 3 Secondary Lists must form a legal army following the rules for a 2500 pt force.
    Percentages based upon 2500 pts : <= 25% Lord (625pt), <= 25% Hero (625pt), >= 25% core (625pt), <= 50% Special (1250pt), & <=25% Rare (625pt).
    Your limit on duplicate units between the Primary & Secondary Forces is the same : Special (3) & Rare (2).

How to select a Secondary Force list:

    Each battle 1 of these lists will be selected secretly after reading the scenario and reviewing your opponent’s Primary Force 2000 pt list.
    Once you have decided on a list, you and your opponent will place your chosen lists face down on the table and reveal them simultaneously.
    Take a moment to review them and begin the game.

* If you are not comfortable with these rules then feel free to make a single 2500 pt list following the normal restrictions and use it in every battle.

Additional Limitations

1) No lord lvl wizards may be included in the 500pt blocks (this allows to have multiple lvl 2′s that change lores)
2) No double rare choices in any one 500pt block.  (this keeps out ninja hydras, hpa’s, stanks, 6 salamanders. Not that they won’t be present but one would be visible: also it doesn’t mean some of these wouldn’t be subject to further restrictions)

I believe these 2 changes would fix the most glaring issues with the system, and provide more enjoyable games for all involved.

This will be my first time attending this tourney, I'm not sure if I'll take Ogres or WoC but I'm sure I'll be ready to bring either in the time alotted. So my question to you, what do you guys think of this type of tourney and how would you approach it? With these secondary forces it offers a lot of options for specific threats.

I like the system conceptually, and actually have used it in 40k where it worked fantastic.  My only grump is the fact that it requires open-list play to work, which I feel is the slow-pitch baseball of Warhammer Fantasy.

I also do not like to play open list, but I must say that I very much like the idea that these guys are using. might give some fun and tactical descisions during the tourny and opens a lot of possibilities!

D...

To be honest, I wouldn't mind playing with open lists. Having skipped 7th ed due to it being absolutely bonkers, I often had to enquire about my opponents' forces, special rules and what not, anyways. Incidentally, what was presented to me left me aghast a couple of times. People REALLY swallowed that load of garbage and played that game???

That aside, while it takes out some surprises (and makes the usual sneak peek items / spells useless, but there aren't a lot of them anyways), methinks it might cut down the cheese factor and / or wonky rules interpretations, since you can discuss them while reading the list. This has the additional bonus of not slowing down play during the game.

I don't see why this has to be played "open list". It should well be possible just to review a showlist with hidden magic items.

But that aside, I've seen variations of this idea played around here, and it didn't become popular. One of the reasons is that it puts more casual players and beginners at a significant disadvantage against the "pros". First, you need more painted models, in the worst case 3500 instead of 2500 points. Second, it takes quite a couple of games to get used to your own list. Coming well-prepared to a tournament where you have more or less 3 different lists, you'd need 3 times as much test-games. Well, not exactly, since 80% stays the same, but you get the idea.

I do like the idea. Its a nice concept. Kinda like many Warmachine tournaments.

This really isn't Comp its just a multiple list format.

I like it too. I've seen a few variations (most only have two additional lists), although I've never played in one myself. It has the lovely effect of allowing you to gear against certain lists and builds that would give you trouble but without sacrificing all-round adaptability. E.g. including Yhettees if you might be facing Ethereal spam.

It's been years since I've been to a tournament of any size that didn't have open lists so that doesn't phase me. Plus agreed - you could have a "closed list" as it were - simply make up an army list with everything in that would be WYSIWYG on the models but all magic items, gifts, etc., deleted. Open list would be a lot easier though.

Are these all the comps? Is Teclis allowed? Can you have a CoC in a gutstar, 3 units of mournfang, and 2 ironblasters? Can a dark elf mage throw 13 dice on a spell?

If you follow his link you can see the actual army restrictions (which seem to have no restrictions other than only one special character per army and then only from 8th ed books).

As grey templar says, this isn't a "comp" system in the sense that it affects what you can take in your army, which is what we normally associate with "composition".

This system could conceivably be used alongside another kind of comp although I suspect it would have to be fairly simple (e.g. no double rares, no special characters, etc) in order to not overload the players with complication.

Its an interesting and fun concept. I probably wouldn't like it though if I was a dwarven army though...

If they follow last year's comp restrictions, it will be 40 wounds max per unit and only 1 special character per tourney. So, only one army allowed to use Golgfag for example. There were some other specifics penalties and bonuses, like +points for playing Wood Elves, -points for Double Ironblaster, etc. But, they're reworking those now I believe.

Wood Elf player won this year, a buddy of mine made 4th using his Ogres.

only 1 special character per tourney.

So if 5 HE players want to play teclis, how do they decide who gets it?

only 1 special character per tourney.

So if 5 HE players want to play teclis, how do they decide who gets it?

Ro Sham Bo? 

I think that would be the perfect time to throw in a side competition, like a WHFB trivia contest or something. You have to prove your geekdom to run Teclis in this tourney!

Here they do it first come, first served. This encourages people to submit their lists in a timely manner, rather than waiting until the last possible second. In fact the tourney I'm preparing for on the 25th of this month still has 2 people who haven't submitted their lists (both are getting a pretty serious comp penalty as a result). So, basically if you want to play Teclis you better get a list in quickly. However, as far as I know you can simply contact the tournament organizer that you're planning to use a specific character so that it can be noted. That way you can get some play testing in before settling on an actual list.

I think that would be the perfect time to throw in a side competition, like a WHFB trivia contest or something. You have to prove your geekdom to run Teclis in this tourney!

Nah, I think you should have to last 5 rounds with a professional wrestler. That way they can feel the anquish of using Teclis that they foist upon the other players.

I really dont like this tournament idea for a few reasons.
1. Does this 500 count towards your list percentage?  Way it is written it does not seem like it does.
2. 1..2..GO! Reveals never seem to work out
3. It encourages people to not bring well rounded lists.  I wanna play the player not the list

I think it was pretty clear the total 2500 point lists all must be legal together. Its just you have 3 sets of 500 hidden points.

All combos must still be legal.

Oh the way I read it is that it is a 2k list with +500 points each game

I really dont like this tournament idea for a few reasons.
1. Does this 500 count towards your list percentage?  Way it is written it does not seem like it does.

It clearly says EACH core+500 combination must be legal.

2. 1..2..GO! Reveals never seem to work out

I don't see the problem. Show all three lists, then pick yours and put it on the table. Both players reveal. What's the issue?

3. It encourages people to not bring well rounded lists.  I wanna play the player not the list

Does it? I would have said the opposite. If you bring an extreme list, this system increases the chance that your opponent has a counter. I might have a chaff-filled 500, a magic-filled 500 and a tarpit-filled 500. Bring a list that's obviously a gunline or ethereal spam or deathstar and I can switch in the element that best counters that.

What it results in is a very balanced core list, with very specialized component lists.  Going back to my 40k example, I ran a very balanced core list with a decent compliment of mid-range firepower and scoring units, with a Warlord chosen for utility rather than combat capability.  My two component lists were then broken down into one specialist close-combat element, and one anti-heavy armor element.  The inclusion of either still made a balanced army, but it was one that typically didn't have any out-of-place units and everything could contribute.  Made for much tighter and more enjoyable matches.