Cant ogre characters charge out of their units?

Hello everyone!

Had a game last night against lizardmen. My opponent claimed that ogre characters cannot charge out of their regiments because they are not in the front rank before they make way in close combat.

It came up when my bsb wanted to solo charge his etheral slan mage priest.

He is a senior player, so I didnt argue with him. Just wanted to double check, because in many siturations it can certainly make a difference.

Your characters will have to be in the front rank in order to charge out of a unit, as they can't move through friendly models while charging. So if you want to charge characters from units you'll have to either run them 4 wide or not take a champion.

Where does it say that, Noisy Assassin? I don't see any issue with declaring a charge from the second rank, providing the character in question can see their target.

After all, would there be any issue with an ogre leaving a unit from the second rank through the front of the unit with a normal move?

Edit: I had a look at the FAQs and there's nothing that explicitly covers charging but you can certainly move through friendly models when "leaving the unit", I've always thought this applies to any way of leaving the unit including charging...

Q: Can a character ‘move through’ a unit he has joined when he
leaves it (i.e. can he leave through the side or rear of the unit,
measuring the move from his starting position)? (p101)
A: Yes.

I agree with Gutlord 100%

i recently had a similar discussion during a game and my argument for being able to is based upon gutlord's response.
I can't see anything saying you can't....but the question is how does he then move out, you have to measure from his position, but can he perform his wheel from within the unit if necessary?

A little threadmocracy here...

I believe there is nothing wrong with charging my character out from the 2nd rank of my ogre unit.  All arc and measuring will have to be from the character's position.

However, some wrinkles occur with the stand-and-shoot reaction.  Normally this is done before moving the charging unit, but at that time the character is still in the unit.  I'd assume it would be done at the same time as always, but all shots would be allocated to the charging unit (just the character).  What if the unit is 3 Ogres and my BSB, my BSB charges out from the 2nd rank, stand and shoot reaction occurs, and they kill my BSB.  Does the Ogre unit have to take a panic test??

Maybe it was an old faq from last edition but I seem to remember that stand and shoot reactions were resolved against the unit the character is charging from.  So in this case would hit the normal ogres( actually it would be randomized as there are less than 5 rank and file but that's besides the point)

However, I don't remember if that information is current so take it with a grain of salt.

However, some wrinkles occur with the stand-and-shoot reaction.  Normally this is done before moving the charging unit, but at that time the character is still in the unit.  I'd assume it would be done at the same time as always, but all shots would be allocated to the charging unit (just the character).  What if the unit is 3 Ogres and my BSB, my BSB charges out from the 2nd rank, stand and shoot reaction occurs, and they kill my BSB.  Does the Ogre unit have to take a panic test??

There are no wrinkles. It doesn't actually matter that the model is physically standing in the unit - it's no longer part of it.
Panic, yes, your bsb was destroyed within 6". Doesn't matter how many Ogres you have left.
They will likely get -2 to hit for hard cover when you charge out and you get the 4+ LoS! if you have enough RnFs left, so not likely that he'll die though.

Another good question.  Does he get hard cover when a stand-and-shoot reaction takes place while charging?

Another good question.  Does he get hard cover when a stand-and-shoot reaction takes place while charging?

Like I said, he'll likely be in hard cover. You'll need to check how much of him is covered.

This has come up several times in my lgs! and its a little irritating so we have our own ruling sine there is nothing in FAQ's or the BRB.
 
An ogre character can charge from his unit from where he is positioned. The stand and shoot reaction is taken against the character as he has "left the unit" before attempting to charge. I mean your archers cant read his mind and say "hey... hes going to charge this turn" can they? So they react WHEN he charges, therefore he has left the unit. He is still entitled to his LOS though
 
Chris

What kind of Stand and shoot attacks would justify Look out sir rolls? I reckon it is only for template weapons you get LOS and those have the slow to fire rule (ie no SS).

The newer chariots shooting 'like warmachines' can be argued by RAW/RAI to have/not have the slow to fire rule but I see that being out of the question here (luckily).

On another point, I'd rule against charging from 2nd row like Noisy Assassin. Although at deployment the command group can easily be move to the second row and let the characters fill the front.

You can leave the unit from 2nd row, sure. BUT that is a move, not a charge. They are two different things and happen in different phases of the movement phase. The charge would be stopped by the ogre in front.

Characters outside a unit but within 3" of a 5-strong unit can get a 4+ look out sir against all shooting not just templates.

This has come up several times in my lgs! and its a little irritating so we have our own ruling sine there is nothing in FAQ's or the BRB.
 
An ogre character can charge from his unit from where he is positioned. The stand and shoot reaction is taken against the character as he has "left the unit" before attempting to charge. I mean your archers cant read his mind and say "hey... hes going to charge this turn" can they? So they react WHEN he charges, therefore he has left the unit. He is still entitled to his LOS though

No need for a house rule.  The BRB explains on pg 101: "If a Stand and Shoot reaction is declared against a character charging out of a unit, the shots are fired at the character as if he was a separate target — he does not gain the same protection as being inside a unit, but he does get a 4+ "Look Out, Sir!" if the unit he is leaving is the same troop type as he is."  I would determine cover, long range, etc as normal for all stand and shoot reactions, based upon the target's position before rolling the charge distance.

Although at deployment the command group can easily be move to the second row and let the characters fill the front.

You can leave the unit from 2nd row, sure. BUT that is a move, not a charge. They are two different things and happen in different phases of the movement phase. The charge would be stopped by the ogre in front.

No can do.  From the BRB, pg 97:  "When characters join a unit, they are placed in the front rank (regardless of distance). Rank-and-file models, except for the command group that must remain in the front rank, are moved to the back ranks to make room for the characters. If there is no more room in the front rank, some characters will have to go in the second rank."

So command models must remain in the front rank - which for 3 wide ogre units with full command means your characters cannot be in the first rank (although you can make way to the first rank during combat).

Also, all characters can charge from any position in their unit.  The BRB, pg 101 gives options in the "Leaving a Unit" section for charging out of a unit or alternatively moving away during the remaining moves sub-phase.  Even the quote above regarding Stand and Shoot mentions "... the unit he [the charging character] is leaving...".  The FAQ quoted by Gutlord Inquisitor says that anytime a character leaves a unit, they can move through the unit.  I can't find any rules support to indicate that this is limited to only one method of leaving a unit.

-Snark

Characters outside a unit but within 3" of a 5-strong unit can get a 4+ look out sir against all shooting not just templates.

Correct. I only noted the box on p. 93 for templates only.

Now we just need to figure out when the distance to the charger is measured. I recall, that if the charge is started outside the shooting range of the charged unit, then the units maximal shooting range is used. But given the above statement, I may be wrong : ) My point being that the LOS may not be valid in all cases but the rules for stand and shoot should be consulted.

I would determine cover, long range, etc as normal for all stand and shoot reactions, based upon the target's position before rolling the charge distance.

I agree with everything you've said in your post above including this one.

I'm not sure about getting cover from the unit you're leaving though. I guess strictly by the rules you could claim this but I would say the charging character doesn't get cover from the unit he's leaving. After all, he's leaving it. 4+ Look Out Sir seems to be ample protection really, adding hard cover on top seems to be taking the mickey.

After just going through the BRB (), there will be no cover for the charging character - he is to be assumed out of the unit when shot at and gets the 4+ LOS only.

Thank you Snark!
 
A Gnoblar to you my good sir
This has cleared it up for us. I remembered reading something about it but could never remember where and could not find it for looking at it lol.
I assume the rest of my LGS just couldn't be bothered. lol
I agree that asking for cover would be a bit much. After all you have armour (your charging a bruiser/tyrant right?) and a 4+ LoS
 
Cheers Chris

Thank you Snark!
 
A Gnoblar to you my good sir

You're very welcome

I'm not sure about getting cover from the unit you're leaving though. I guess strictly by the rules you could claim this but I would say the charging character doesn't get cover from the unit he's leaving. After all, he's leaving it. 4+ Look Out Sir seems to be ample protection really, adding hard cover on top seems to be taking the mickey.

I agree with the sentiment - especially in a friendly game.  That being said, if my opponent in a tournament wanted to claim hard cover - he has every right to.  Line of sight rules and stand and shoot rules are very clear about getting hard cover when firing through models and about taking your stand and shoot reaction prior to moving chargers.  Nothing in the rules for charging characters out of units contradicts it.

I agree that asking for cover would be a bit much. After all you have armour (your charging a bruiser/tyrant right?) and a 4+ LoS

In my opinion, most of our ogre characters are quite good on a charge.  A SM with a 2++ vs fire can be a very effective solo character against many opponents.  A firebelly (w/ hellheart) can be a great character to charge out - getting closer for hellheart use and still able to use a breath weapon to rock the first turn of combat.

In typical games, I try not to get too picky over must minor rule mistakes - I save my objections for the big ones.  But you should know the rule is there, if you want to claim it ... If your opponent is claiming hard cover from his unit against your snipers, then I say claim hard cover against his stand and shoot when you charge out your character.

-Snark

I think in a tournament it would be a judge call!

After all, you get a 4+ look out sir, not a 2+ look out sir for being in the unit, since you're treated as having left the unit. Getting hard cover because you're physically in the unit while simultaneously counting as having left the unit seems dubious.

Not saying you're wrong, it just sets off alarm bells.

I've been pondering using an ogre unit to charge solo characters out and I'm going to have to try it a bit more in the future.

"...you're treated as having left the unit..."

Is clear to me that there will be no cover bonus. It can be a call by local refs or house rules, but it would bet on it : )

After all, you get a 4+ look out sir, not a 2+ look out sir for being in the unit, since you're treated as having left the unit.

Just to clarify, you don't get a 2+ Look Out, Sir! vs a stand and shoot when you are in a unit - unless the stand and shoot is a template weapon.

When the BRB references (pg 101):  "... he does not gain the same protection as being inside a unit, but he does get a 4+ "Look Out, Sir!" if the unit he is leaving is the same troop type as he is...", it is saying that the character can be targetted individually by shooting (without needing sniper) - he does not have the protection of being in a unit vs shooting.  It does not say you ignore cover penalties (if they apply). 

"...you're treated as having left the unit..."

Is clear to me that there will be no cover bonus. It can be a call by local refs or house rules, but it would bet on it : )

It actually doesn't use the quotation you stated.  It does say (BRB, pg 101): "he is treated as a separate target." It also instructs us to measure charge distance from where the character was in the unit, indicating that spot is where the charge originated.  Under stand and shoot rules, you draw LOS and check your shooting range to that spot.

As I was saying before:  Most tournaments seem to have fairly tight time limits.  I would suggest you always think about how important the rule in question is to the game ]before you stop play and spend 10 minutes or so trying to resolve a rules query.

-Snark

Just to clarify, you don't get a 2+ Look Out, Sir! vs a stand and shoot when you are in a unit - unless the stand and shoot is a template weapon.

You are quite correct, if a little pedantic 

When the BRB references (pg 101):  "... he does not gain the same protection as being inside a unit, but he does get a 4+ "Look Out, Sir!" if the unit he is leaving is the same troop type as he is...", it is saying that the character can be targetted individually by shooting (without needing sniper) - he does not have the protection of being in a unit vs shooting.  It does not say you ignore cover penalties (if they apply).

Understood, but the situation of being a unit contained within another unit at the point of shooting and using the outer unit as cover is what doesn't sit well with me. As I said at the beginning, strictly by the rules I guess it works but it's kind of outside anything the rules actually deal with.

Or: you're right but I don't like it.

As I was saying before:  Most tournaments seem to have fairly tight time limits.  I would suggest you always think about how important the rule in question is to the game ]before you stop play and spend 10 minutes or so trying to resolve a rules query.

Not bad advice.

Warhammer uses true line of sight to determine wether or not the target unit is in cover. Here the character is standing behind the front rank, and will most likely be in hard cover with the TLOS rules.
After all, it's not easy to hit an Ogre character when he's standing in cover behind other Ogres.

Imagine a tyrant with the flying carpet standing behind a unit of Ogres and declaring a charge on a unit on the other side that tries to stand and shoot at him. No one would argue against hard cover with the TLOS rules.

good comment.

Imagine a tyrant with the flying carpet standing behind a unit of Ogres and declaring a charge on a unit on the other side that tries to stand and shoot at him. No one would argue against hard cover with the TLOS rules.

That's a pretty good comparison. I still find it ... unpalatable but I guess I don't have any argument why a model within the unit shouldn't get it if a model behind the unit does.