paying the butchers tax

hey i would like to know what you guys think. Is paying for the butcher a good thing or a bad thing?

in my personal experence the butchers is a good char to slap a scroll or a hell heart on and if he gets trollguts the better. also he acts as a good meat sheild for my level 4.

also do you guys think that there should be a level 4 firebelly?

Lvl 4 fire belly? Yes please! Maybe make him a named character or something, you know a name char that is actually viable to have in an army

Don't mind the butchers tax, even without Trollguts he can be good in a secondary unit ready to bring the stubborn in a time of need.

Maybe a lvl 4 upgrade option but I don't think they should buff the stats and special abilities of the Firebelly too much as he is already pretty tough.

Don't mind the butchers tax, even without Trollguts he can be good in a secondary unit ready to bring the stubborn in a time of need.

Maybe a lvl 4 upgrade option but I don't think they should buff the stats and special abilities of the Firebelly too much as he is already pretty tough.

ya i think if you give him the same stats as a slaughtermaster  and a s5 breathweapon that would be good anothe

Since I think Gutmagic is the best lore we have, its not a tax at all.

Gutmagic is an amazing lore when used properly.

Butcher Tax is Jervis's attempt to make us use the book lore.  Strictly speaking, LotGM is an average to subpar lore on a L4 and just plain bad on L1-2 wizards.  If you like the Hellheart, you can always slap it on a L1 Butcher and use him as a suicide mage bomber, while unlocking access to good lores on the SM.  I think the concept of a Butcher Tax is dumb and only belongs in armies like VC and Tomb Kings (and even they got forced too much) where the main army rule mechanic depends on having the book lore in play.  But whats done is done.  If you like Death/Heavens/Beasts, my thought is you pay the bare minimum and slap a random utility arcane item on him to make the most out of a bad situation.

Since I think Gutmagic is the best lore we have, its not a tax at all.

Gutmagic is an amazing lore when used properly.

Gutmagic is an amazing lore when you roll Trollguts and two other useful spells.  Its a passable lore when you roll Trollguts.  Its just plain terrible when you don't roll Trollguts.  And even with Trollguts, it comes down to 6 dicing it on the critical round and hoping the enemy has no flaming attacks in the vicinity to make it all pointless.

The one descent use I see for it is in armies that go cheap on the characters using the Lore Attribute to make their SM General immortal (SM and BSB only builds), but thats still not as good as dropping AE Harmonic, Ice Shard, and Commet in a single turn at least from an overall army support standpoint.

Yeah, I agree with Phazael.

The lore of the great maw is great for a gunline, or something (to reduce casualties) but making ironguts Strength 7?
to me the only real viable spell all the time is regeneration and sometimes stubborn.
Stubborn then only for the mini tactics in the game.

A vampire lord (and for the lesser extend the tomb kings sorcerers) have more roles then the tax we have

Around here all T3 armies with Dwellers Below and what not, Maw is most excellent (not everyone use just Ironguts).

T5 Ogres, S5 Ogres, Regen Ogres, and Stubborn Ogres on low casting values works wonders.

With my lvl4 it is seldom I do not get three of the above.

I never put a Str buff on Ironguts true, but my army isn't made up of just Ironguts. I take both Bulls and Ironguts.

Yeah, the butcher tax seemed intended to make sure the Maw lore was used as it is less potent than some of the rulebook Lores. Then again, without access to Life, Light or Shadow it doesn't have that much competition for space on the Level 4. Lazy game design. TK and Vamps have fluff reasons for requiring a wizard with their necromancy lores, but ogres don't.

Is the butcher tax a bad thing? Well, it doesn't exactly make your army worse - points spent on a level 1 or 2 maw butcher are not exactly wasted. But it is annoying and it limits certain builds in a way that feels quite artificial.

Sure, it may not make sense from a fluff perspective but, like me, you can work around the limitation.

More people really ought to try Maw out as their primary lore. Its infinitly better on a lvl4 than a level 1 or 2.

I havn't yet tried a lvl4 and a lvl2 both with Maw yet. I do like me some Iceshard Blizzard.

I typically run Level 4 Maw and I see most competitive players doing the same, grey templar. The big exception was the Deathfist.

Only time I see Maw on a L4 is in low character builds (SM + BSB only), as Heavens has more or less caught on on the west coast.  Death and Beasts see some play out here, too.  Maw is one of those lores like Life where everyone taking it hopes they get the key spell (Dwellers for Life, Bubbleguts for Maw) and has issues when they don't bowl it.  I agree its a perfectly workable lore, but I strongly feel that doubel FB is more point efficient and Heavens is stronger.

I find it very useful for Deathstar build. You don't even need to bubble it then, just keep your deathstar invincible and your slaughtermaster alive. "Bubbleguts" (dear god that's going to stick  ) it also useful for a deathstar allowing you to skimp on ward saves on characters.

Then again, I run a Level 4 and a Level 2 most of the time anyway so it really doesn't cost me much to swap the Lores around. But I find if I'm taking Maw it's more useful on a level 4 and Heavens is a really great lore for a level 2 but not that amazing on a level 4.

I'm with Gutlord on this one; I love the Lore of Maw, and take my level 4 as a Maw caster 9 times out of 10.  Most of the people who seem to poo-poo the Maw lore seem to be gut-star proponents.  My beast/maw combos with my MMU army (made up of Bulls, leadies, maneaters, with only a smaller, supporting unit of ironguts) fantastically well. 

In short, I don't see it as a tax at all, and I think it's one of the finest unique lores (tying with the VC lore, but maybe I've just been overexposed to that one recently).

And yes, I think a named level 4 firebelly would have been awesome, and that GW was a moron for not including one.

I was just saying gut-star proponents liked the Maw lore?  We're not very good at agreeing are we? 

I'm sure the writers would have had a list as long as your arm of new SC ideas but we were the first of the "no entries in the book without models" books. 

Gutstar is also pretty easily beaten by an expert, quite frankly.  Any Dark Elf army with a Peg lord is just going to park that thing while it eats the rest of your force alive, just for one example.  And quite honestly, L2 Firebellies are just fine.  The flaming banner is out there for everyone and the game is crammed with incentives to take it, so I feel betting the farm on Bubbleguts is a losing angle, not to mention tactically boring to run.  I guess that it might be more attractive in a Bull heavy list, but thats a serperate discussion.  Even then, the best Bull builds are gunline oriented and you are still better off with Heavens (assuming you are willing and able to pay the tax) in the long run.

Maybe your guys don't do this, but most people (myself included) tend to bring a descent amount of flaming attacks to the table, especially of the high initiative variety, which makes it all fairly irrelavent.  I also look at the stat buffs and compare them to Wyssans in efficiency and feel pretty unimpressed.  I guess maybe a Beast Butcher with Maw SM might be ok, but meh.  I have had so much production out of my Tyrant + 2 FB setup that its hard for me to run a SM anymore.  I cannot rule out personal bias, however.

  I have had so much production out of my Tyrant + 2 FB setup that its hard for me to run a SM anymore.  I cannot rule out personal bias, however.

i have brought 2 firebellys out on the same list before and had tons of fun with it. i loaded them upwith the sword of swift slaying and gold sigil sword to get the flame breath off first. good by 20 zombies with regen lol.

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i have brought 2 firebellys out on the same list before and had tons of fun with it. i loaded them upwith the sword of swift slaying and gold sigil sword to get the flame breath off first. good by 20 zombies with regen lol.
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Both those weapons dont allow the breath weapon to go first its in the FAQ...
Q: Do Breath Weapon hits benefit from any other special rules,
equipment or magic items of the model that inflicts the hits? (p67)
A: No

I also look at the stat buffs and compare them to Wyssans in efficiency and feel pretty unimpressed. 

You're right, the stat buffs compared to Wyssan's aren't as good individually.  However it's the ability to present an opponent with MULTIPLE stat-buff spells that brings out the shine.  With the average 7 dice, I can comfortably cast 2 maw-buffs AND wyssans, and my opponent will only be able to dispel one or two of them.

I also look at the stat buffs and compare them to Wyssans in efficiency and feel pretty unimpressed. 

You're right, the stat buffs compared to Wyssan's aren't as good individually.  However it's the ability to present an opponent with MULTIPLE stat-buff spells that brings out the shine.  With the average 7 dice, I can comfortably cast 2 maw-buffs AND wyssans, and my opponent will only be able to dispel one or two of them.

Same. T5, Regen, or S&T5 from Toothcracker, Trollguts and Wildform make up my magic phase. The +1 strength spell also has some merits in certain fights (like when I've just sent my Stonehorn into an enemy monster for a laugh), but that's situational.

+1 strength has quite a bit of value for impacts and stomps. Remember any attack that hits automatically is worth two attacks of the same strength that need to roll a 4+ to hit. A mournfang will typically cause as many wounds with impacts and stomps as with its 7 normal attacks. So +1 strength is sometimes underappreciated considering how much your average ogre gets out of it especially on the charge.

especially given the nice and low casting value of the spell!  As long as I have it, and assuming I'm in or will be in combat, I always lead with bullgorger.  2 dice virtually guarantees a level 4 will cast it successfully, and if it's let through, you get the +1 to cast toothcracker or trollguts.

maw is great vs DE pendant lord ona peg. magic missiles do no armour save and the pendant saves on a 1 or a 2. 7 hits = 4 wounds = 3 get through. puts the fear of god into the Pendant with 1+armour models. i do prefer death and shadows though.

maw is great vs DE pendant lord ona peg. magic missiles do no armour save and the pendant saves on a 1 or a 2. 7 hits = 4 wounds = 3 get through. puts the fear of god into the Pendant with 1+armour models. i do prefer death and shadows though.

if you look at all the directed damage spells in the lore death they cause wounds with no armour saves allowed and it does not have a streght values so no pendant ward save.

Yes, however the Death spells have a higher casting value(IIRC) and can't heal the Butcher.

Yes, however the Death spells have a higher casting value(IIRC) and can't heal the Butcher.

Plus the maw MM gets +1 to cast for previous successful maw casts. dont get me wrong, Death is my preferred lore but maw isnt worthless.

The problem is, that there is only one magic missile.
Which can be dispelled.

Death has more spells to kill at a distance.

I think the biggest problem overall is, that as long as you are not in combat the maw isn't that good.
You only have two spells.

But thats not the point of Gutmagic. the point of gutmagic is to be a defensive lore, that does have a couple offensive spells.

7 spells. 3 are offensive, only 2 actually cause damage. 4 are buffs.

its a defensive lore that has a few spells with teeth.

maw is great vs DE pendant lord ona peg. magic missiles do no armour save and the pendant saves on a 1 or a 2. 7 hits = 4 wounds = 3 get through. puts the fear of god into the Pendant with 1+armour models. i do prefer death and shadows though.

Actually, since all Monstrous Cavalry can now use their mount's toughness, 7 hits=1 wound now.. not so hot.  Even if he was toughness 3 it would still be only 2 wounds normally.

I have to say, I really like Maw. It has never failed me in a match (even when I don't roll Trollguts). Is Trollguts really nice, yes, but it isn't the be all end all the people make it out to be. The +1S and +1T spells can be very useful due to their relatively low (for a Lv4, possibly with +1 from attribute) casting values. +1T is amazing on basically anything in the army. Regular Ogres, Ironguts and MFC all benefit hugely from this spell.

Similarly +1S really opens up the opportunities for Ogres and MFC. Ogres in particular benefit hugely from this spell and it allows them to really beat up enemy infantry (even some pseudo-elite to elite units).

Another spell that is really under appreciated in the lore is the the magic missile. Ignoring armor saves can be great against many of the armies. Empire, VC, WoC and Brets in particular are vulnerable to this spell since almost all of them field some form of Cavalry with 2+ or better saves.

Even the Panic spell is decent when used against misdirectors outside the general's LD bubble (which many are). This can remove the problematic distractions before they can block you up.

The biggest problem with this lore in my opinion is that it doesn't have much to clear chaff if they are high LD (like Great Eagles) or in the general's range. Ruby Ring of Ruin can help with this but if you are taking a hero level wizard anyway, a Firebelly can give you the same effect and easily clear chaff. The other main problem with this lore is that you aren't a threat at ranged so people will just focus on Trollguts and stop it. +1 Strength doesn't really matter if you aren't in combat and +1 Toughness is similar (it has some ranged bonuses but not huge).

That said, I have also found a Heavens + Grut's Sickle SM to be AMAZING. +6 to cast on spells that have such a low casting value means you can 2 or even 1 dice the spells. Meaning that instead of casting two major spells each turn and maybe one minor one, you can cast 4 spells in one round basically no matter how many dice you roll for the phase. It makes those rolls of a 4 or 5 really strong for the Winds of Magic because you can still cast 2 spells with a high bonus, meaning your opponent will have a hard time dispelling them with only a couple of dice.

I have only tested the Double Firebelly list a couple of times so I can't say much about its effectiveness in the magic phase. One thing that I do like is that with the Attribute you can make up for the fact that you only have Lv 2's (especially with the Ruby Ring of Ruin). The thing I really like about the Double Firebellies is that they add a ton of combat punch in addition to being wizards.

Just my thoughts,
Triddion