Failing the yeti Fear test

I have read multiple places on the forum that if a unit WS drops to 1 because it failed the Yeti fear test, then their aura pushes the WS to 0. This happened to me recently. I told my opponent, ok, all my hits are auto hits and you cannot hit me. He than said, where does it say that? We looked at the rulebook and FAQ and couldn't get any resolution it it. What line should I show him for next time? The table in the back of the book stops at WS 1....

Most stats (except Ballistic Skill Attacks, Wounds and Movement) cannot go below one. It's stated in most spells "to a minimum of 1". This applies to weapon skill also. Unfortuneatly there are no "auto-hits" because near the start of the BRB (pg 7-16 detailing stats I think) "a roll of a 1 is always a fail".
You owe 3 to wounds to some opponent. Then again, they owe you 9 wounds for 3 dead yhetiis. 

Most stats (except Ballistic Skill Attacks, Wounds and Movement) cannot go below one. It's stated in most spells "to a minimum of 1". This applies to weapon skill also. Unfortuneatly there are no "auto-hits" because near the start of the BRB (pg 7-16 detailing stats I think) "a roll of a 1 is always a fail".
You owe 3 to wounds to some opponent. Then again, they owe you 9 wounds for 3 dead yhetiis. 

This is incorrect. You can have a skill that is 0 with Weapon Skill and be auto hit.

P. 4 of the Island of Blood Rule book -

"If any creature or object has a weapon skill of 0 then it is unable to defend itself in close combat, and any blows struck against it will therefore automatically hit."

^^ The above references when you are hitting the model with weapon skill 0. It does not mention if that model is hitting you.

However, it does say this on the same page under characteristics of zero -

"Some creatures have been given a value of 0, for certain characterstics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that skill"

No ability whatsoever and the fact that the weapon skill chart does not list Weapon Skill 0. They cannot swing because there is no chart to reference for that weapon skill and they have no ability. But the BRB does state that a natural roll of a 6 is always a hit...

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?272521-Weapon-Skill-0-and-attacks

There is a 4 page argument on whether someone with Weapon Skill 0 can still attack back. However, it is 100% certain that defending with a Weapon Skill 0 means you are auto hit.

Yes, if a Yhetee unit is fighting another unit and they fail the Fear test the unit's front rank will be WS0.

This means the Yhetees will hit automatically.

With the Enemy unit, the Front rank will only hit on 6s while the Second and further ranks will hit on 5s(WS1)

It used to say it in our FAQ that WS0 means they are auto hit and cant attack back, however it is no longer there after the last update. Unless I can find it again I would go with what Grey Templar said

This is debated rather often and it is unfortunately not as clear cut as that.

The problem comes with "when is the -1 applied?" The argument being my WS3 troops are reduced to WS2 by the ability and then reduced to 1 by the fear. Similar questions arise with Fencer's blades vs fear. WS10 or WS1?

This has no easy resolution and needs a FAQ.

I think any timings are done in the order of the player who's turn it is. I think it was in an FAQ. So in my turn I apply Fear first, then the -1 WS, in my opponents turn they do it in a different order.

I think any timings are done in the order of the player who's turn it is. I think it was in an FAQ. So in my turn I apply Fear first, then the -1 WS, in my opponents turn they do it in a different order.

Only one problem with that, Fear has a set time when it happens and the Aura is a continuous effect in B2B, therefore you can never change the order they happen

yeah, fear tests are taken at the beginning of combat, before blows are struck.  The Aura only comes into effect when blows are being struck.  Same order, every turn.

So its always WS0 if the test is failed?

yeah, fear tests are taken at the beginning of combat, before blows are struck.  The Aura only comes into effect when blows are being struck.  Same order, every turn.

What if the feared unit has fencers blades?

IMO fencers blades is always active so you run into battle with ws10 then fail fear and go to 1

Fencer's Blades would remain WS10 because it is the model that fails the fear check, not the weapons.

You would have to destroy them somehow or use a Chaos Runeshield against them or something.

yeah, fear tests are taken at the beginning of combat, before blows are struck.  The Aura only comes into effect when blows are being struck.  Same order, every turn.

Where does it say that?

"While any enemy models are in base contact with one or more Yhetees, they suffer a -1 penalty to their Weapon Skill"

If you're going by the literal sequence, the models lose their pip of WS the moment they get into contact, which would be the movement phase and don't take the fear test until the combat phase.

However, modifiers aren't typically sequential like that.

Fencer's Blades would remain WS10 because it is the model that fails the fear check, not the weapons.

You would have to destroy them somehow or use a Chaos Runeshield against them or something.

I quite like the idea of a sniveling coward being forced to fight well by the Blades. However, it doesn't really answer the question. After all, you could argue the other way, that even these great blades can't really help you when you're curled up in a ball.

In rules terms there's not much to give an indication as to which rule trumphs the other. I guess the "whose turn it is" rule comes into effect with this one.

There is not a specific rule for it but there is argument through analogy.

If a str 3 unit with great weapons gets -3 str debuff, they would be str 3 in combat, not Str 2 (characteristic dropped to minimum 1, then weapon bonus kicks in).

I just don't see how someone being scared makes the weapon less effective, he still has enough courage to attempt to strike because he was reduced to WS1 and not WS0 (I mean the blades can turn a WS2 model into weapon skill 10, it can certainly turn a weapon skill 1 model into weapon skill 10)... Even if you give a GW to a guy with reduced muscle mass, he's still going to hit with at least the strength of the great weapon.

If a str 3 unit with great weapons gets -3 str debuff, they would be str 3 in combat, not Str 2 (characteristic dropped to minimum 1, then weapon bonus kicks in).

Not everyone would agree with you on that. I'm not even 100% convinced myself. After all, they have that -3 sitting on them. You're assuming a sequentiality I'm not sure exists. After all, if you then added +2 strength from a spell they'd be S2, right (2+2-3)? You don't say "The -3 spell was cast first and then the +2 strength was cast so I do the -3 first, cap at 1, then add +2, so my strength is 3" - there's no indication that spell effects and particularly modifiers are applied like this. For example: Great Icon of Dispair gives you -2 Ld. If you are Ld7, you become Ld5. If your general (Ld9) then moves into IP range, you become Ld7 (9-2). This has been confirmed by FAQ. The modifier hovers over you, modifying whatever your current stat is.

The great weapons confuse matters because they are a modifier only at the point of attacking and don't actually change your strength for other purposes so it would make sense to apply the spell first and then the weapon - but you could argue it the other way. Needs a FAQ.

I just don't see how someone being scared makes the weapon less effective, he still has enough courage to attempt to strike because he was reduced to WS1 and not WS0 (I mean the blades can turn a WS2 model into weapon skill 10, it can certainly turn a weapon skill 1 model into weapon skill 10)... Even if you give a GW to a guy with reduced muscle mass, he's still going to hit with at least the strength of the great weapon.

Still just a rationalisation based on an assumption how the blades work. Perhaps the blades just give the wielder knowledge of how to fight, which is still abandoned in terror? In any case while it is an attractive idea it doesn't help with a rules question.

yeah, fear tests are taken at the beginning of combat, before blows are struck.  The Aura only comes into effect when blows are being struck.  Same order, every turn.

Where does it say that?

"While any enemy models are in base contact with one or more Yhetees, they suffer a -1 penalty to their Weapon Skill"

If you're going by the literal sequence, the models lose their pip of WS the moment they get into contact, which would be the movement phase and don't take the fear test until the combat phase.

However, modifiers aren't typically sequential like that.

No, the penalty doesn't come into effect because the WS is in no way evaluated untiil attacks are being made.  The first time that WS comes into play in the assault phase is with regards to the fear test.  The fear test the REPLACES the WS value with a new one.  This is done with no reference to any kind of modifiers (ignoring the fencer's blade arguement for now).  The new value (assuming a failed test) is then changed to 1.  Modifiers to the WS come into play when calculating what is needed to hit.  I always thought it was fairly clear.  The fear test happens first (actually happens out of sequence) and effects whatever the base value is.  Any modifiers from spells, weapons, or what-not, are always applied after that replacement (except for Speed of Light, which is a replacement of WS value itself) when you are actually evaluating what you need to hit.

No, the penalty doesn't come into effect because the WS is in no way evaluated untiil attacks are being made.

Which is stated where? Models don't have a WS value until combat? Is initiative not evaluated until attacks are being made too? There are a whole host of initiative tests in other phases. Conceivably you could have a "WS test" made by a spell or ability, although I can't think of any examples. (Thought it was a shame the SOM spells didn't have some more interesting spells like a vortex of blades that removed models on a failed WS test, but that's besides the point). Your models have a WS even out of combat.

The first time that WS comes into play in the assault phase is with regards to the fear test. The fear test the REPLACES the WS value with a new one.  This is done with no reference to any kind of modifiers (ignoring the fencer's blade arguement for now).  The new value (assuming a failed test) is then changed to 1.  Modifiers to the WS come into play when calculating what is needed to hit.

The modifiers are there all the time. If a model has his Toughness reduced to 0, he dies immediately, not the next time his Toughness "comes into play."

There is an argument for WS0 and it revolves around the idea that modifiers are applied to whatever the final value is after any substitutions. Again, the FAQ confirms if you have a model with -2 Ld and replace their Ld with a different one like the General's Ld, the modifier still applies. Bringing that precedent over to WS, the unit has the -1 WS modifier and even when their WS is substituted (a Tomb King's WS given to his unit, or a failed Fear test replacing it with 1) the modifier still applies. So a WS6 Tomb King would pass his unmodified WS on and then the Yhetees would modify the unit's WS. Assuming this is correct, then yes, you'd get WS0 every time.

If this is where you were going with your argument then I agree with the outcome but I think your starting premise wasn't right. It isn't that the modifier isn't applied until after the fear test, but that it is still applied after the test.

I'm guessing not many of you are Magic:the Gathering tournament players, but in my shop almost everyone did/does at one point or another. See for us this questions and many like it are very simple because we can apply our knowledge of the rules and Layers from Magic:the Gathering to many of WHFB issues that arise. Now while that may not be the correct way of doing it, it works good for us because it has "logical" outcomes.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20091105a

That website is a very good way to learn the Layer system from M:tG and while I know that WHFB isn't M:tG it could help you think in RAI terms because I imagine that the writers and rules people for WHFB dabble in M:tG at least a little if not a whole lot.

It's been a while since I played. In this case, what would the correct procedure be in magic rules order of operations?

Layer 7B would set the WS to 1 via Fear
Layer 7C would lower it to WS0 via Yeti Aura

and as for the Fencer's Blades and Fear
Layer 7B would set WS to 10 at the start of the game and than because Fear has a later timestamp it would be set to WS1

and as for the Fencer's Blades and Fear
Layer 7B would set WS to 10 at the start of the game and than because Fear has a later timestamp it would be set to WS1

Problem is that fencers blade applies at every moment while the character wields it, not just once at the beginning. To me, they seem like they are in complete contradiction and nowhere do I see anything that suggests one takes priority over the other. One sets the WS to 10. The other sets WS to 1. Whichever gets applied first seems arbitrary to me. Personally, I would suggest a roll-of. 1-3, WS 1, 4-6 WS 10.

and as for the Fencer's Blades and Fear
Layer 7B would set WS to 10 at the start of the game and than because Fear has a later timestamp it would be set to WS1

Problem is that fencers blade applies at every moment while the character wields it, not just once at the beginning. To me, they seem like they are in complete contradiction and nowhere do I see anything that suggests one takes priority over the other. One sets the WS to 10. The other sets WS to 1. Whichever gets applied first seems arbitrary to me. Personally, I would suggest a roll-of. 1-3, WS 1, 4-6 WS 10.

It's important for tournaments, as you can't solve it like that.
Lets analyse it:
Fencer's Blades "Paired Weapon. The wielder counts as being Ws10".
Fear: "Reduce the unit's weapon Skill to 1." It seems that, The Blades grant Ws10, and the Fear will STILL reduce it because it doesn't take in has no regard to original or current Weapon Skill.

and as for the Fencer's Blades and Fear
Layer 7B would set WS to 10 at the start of the game and than because Fear has a later timestamp it would be set to WS1

Problem is that fencers blade applies at every moment while the character wields it, not just once at the beginning. To me, they seem like they are in complete contradiction and nowhere do I see anything that suggests one takes priority over the other. One sets the WS to 10. The other sets WS to 1. Whichever gets applied first seems arbitrary to me. Personally, I would suggest a roll-of. 1-3, WS 1, 4-6 WS 10.

It's important for tournaments, as you can't solve it like that.
Lets analyse it:
Fencer's Blades "Paired Weapon. The wielder counts as being Ws10".
Fear: "Reduce the unit's weapon Skill to 1." It seems that, The Blades grant Ws10, and the Fear will STILL reduce it because it doesn't take in has no regard to original or current Weapon Skill.

I would like to point out that my wife who has never played Warhammer just read the question and the rules from the books used simple English to deduced that even with Fencer's Blades on a character a failed fear test would reduce him to WS1 and if in b2b with a Yeti would than make it WS0.

Exactly, 1-1=0