Improving (or balncing) the Tyrant

Lots of armies have kick-ass lords who, for the smae points (or less) can woop our tyrant's ar$e anyday!
Like the Vampire Lord, 5 strenght 5 attacks with 3's to hit and the ability to re-roll if given the vampiric powers? Inniative 7 and toughness 5 for the same price as a Tyrant!
Saurus  Oldbloods have 5 attacks with strenght 5, at Inniative 4, with a better armour save and and at weapon skill 6.
Black Orc Warbosses have a higher weapon skill with the same stats otherwise as us.
Is it me or does Jeremy Vetock not like giving characters good stats (or army bools for example)?
So here we shall make our tyrants rightly feared!
Ws   Bs   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
07    04  6   5    5   4   5   10
Reasons for these stats are that he has killed countless enemies, and has beaten many monsters and creatures to a pulp. So of course he should have a higher strenght!
His leadership stat is high because he intills fear into those who won't fight and will make sure they do with brute strenght!
Their weapon skill should be higher to combat other armies' lords.
Of course, some other lords then are put in the shade but, who takes an oldblood over a slann? Or just one Warboss? And vampires are broken anyways.
Big names should be fixed for our tyrant aswell.
Leave Giantbreaker, Deathcheater and Mountaineater.
Thuundercrusher: The Tyrant gets d6 Stomps instead.
Boulderguts: The Tyrant is immune to Heroic Killing Blow.
Trollfeeder: The Tyrant has 5+ Regeneration.
Stonehands: The Tyrant's attacks are Killing Blow.
Beastchomper: Any model with 2 or more wounds killed by a tyrant allows the tyrant to gain d3 wounds.
So any thoughts?

Yea - that's a little overboard. 

He shouldn't have WS 7 - Ogres by nature are just not as skilled as other lords or comparative units.  Bad WS runs in the family.

He shouldn't have Ld 10 - That's another trait inherent to ogres that our Ld is comparatively low. 

Strength 6 is good.  I always thought ogres should be stronger on average than others. 

Thundercrusher would be ridiculous and beastchomper would be redundant as we already have Gutmaw.

I wouldn't even want trollfeeder since I IF spam Trollguts anyway.  Although, if I take a Tyrant, its unlikely I will take an SM too...  There are enough ward saves out there already.  The others are okay.

If you want to make the Tyrant viable, give him more synergistic options.  He needs stubborn naturally or through a big name.  He ought to cause terror since everything else causes fear.  Those 2 options alone would make him a better choice.  Toss your Strength 6 on there and he's really good to go.

Even with the changes you suggested, I'd still take an SM though.  I wouldn't want to spend so many points on characters to have them both.

But what if you don't get trollguts?
Personally I find the common Ogres to be bad with weapons, but the best of the best should have good ws.
Leadership is the same. Ogres are drivn for food but Tyrant's have a reputation to keep. If not, a big name to like kineater to allow this.
Stubborn would be good or even Unbreakable, but thats a dwarf thing.
I wouldn't find Thunderstomp to be broken, after all, he can only take 1 Big name.

If you are going to compare stat lines for the cost than at least you should take a look at the WHOLE stat line.
From the looks of just the 10min of looking it seems to me that the tyrant is just as good if not better than other lords. Yes I would like it if our big names didn't come out of our point cost though. After all our lord has 5 wounds what other army can say that?

Tyrant
6  6  4  5  5  5  4  5  9

Oldblood 145
4  6  0  5  5  3  4  5  8

Tomb King 170
4  6  3  5  5  4  3  4  10

Chaos Lord 210
4  8  3  5  5  3  7  5  9

Beastlord
5  6  3  5  5  3  5  4  9

Bretonnian Lord
4  6  3  4  4  3  6  4  9

Dark Elf Dreadlord
5  7  6  4  3  3  8  4  10

Dwarf Lord
3  7  4  4  5  3  4  4  10

If you are going to compare stat lines for the cost than at least you should take a look at the WHOLE stat line.
From the looks of just the 10min of looking it seems to me that the tyrant is just as good if not better than other lords. Yes I would like it if our big names didn't come out of our point cost though. After all our lord has 5 wounds what other army can say that?

Tyrant
6  6  4  5  5  5  4  5  9

Oldblood 145
4  6  0  5  5  3  4  5  8

Tomb King 170
4  6  3  5  5  4  3  4  10

Chaos Lord 210
4  8  3  5  5  3  7  5  9

Beastlord
5  6  3  5  5  3  5  4  9

Bretonnian Lord
4  6  3  4  4  3  6  4  9

Dark Elf Dreadlord
5  7  6  4  3  3  8  4  10

Dwarf Lord
3  7  4  4  5  3  4  4  10

Thats true, but it seems these guys rock lords department: Vampire Lord, Stiroughli King (If thats how you spell it) Chaos Lord, Chaos Daemon Prince, (Any of the larger guys like Bloodthirsters), Dreadlord (Have you heard about the invinvibal Dreadlord?) and the Doombull. Our guys find these fellas very hard to beat unless geared specifically to do so.

I like Tyrants just fine. All they really need is a price drop by 50 points. However, make the big names actually decent and you might see him more often.

Our statline is decent, the real issue is we don't have access to magic items/etc that can take those other Lords OTT.

For Vampires, the powers are where its at. Sadly, Big Names just suck in comparison.

So what needs to change is Big Names.


They should be a seperate allowance and be better overall.

Tyrants may have up to 3 big names, 75 pts max

Bruisers may have up to 2 big names, 50 pts max


Mawseeker: 30 pts, same effect.

Giantbreaker: no change.

Brawler Guts: D3 impact hits, same price

Kineater: Inspiring Presence increased to 18", cost 40 pts

Greatgut: +1 wound, 40 pts

Smasher: Killing Blow, 35 pts

Our statline is decent, the real issue is we don't have access to magic items/etc that can take those other Lords OTT.

For Vampires, the powers are where its at. Sadly, Big Names just suck in comparison.

So what needs to change is Big Names.


They should be a seperate allowance and be better overall.

Tyrants may have up to 3 big names, 75 pts max

Bruisers may have up to 2 big names, 50 pts max


Mawseeker: 30 pts, same effect.

Giantbreaker: no change.

Brawler Guts: D3 impact hits, same price

Kineater: Inspiring Presence increased to 18", cost 40 pts

Greatgut: +1 wound, 40 pts

Smasher: Killing Blow, 35 pts

Agreed. So our problem is not only sucky big names, but our limits on them also...
CURSE YOU VETOCK!

We need one thing and one thing only:

The Tenderizer!


nuff said....

D...

Take the Mawseeker back to 10 points and remove the 1 per army limit so all our tyrants and bruisers can take it.

*Just to note, this ^^ is NOT a balancing suggestion.  It is simply a wet dream for a front rank of T6.

You guys can always ask your opponents to keep using the 6th Ed book. They probably won't mind

You guys can always ask your opponents to keep using the 6th Ed book. They probably won't mind

Whoa now!  Let's not get TOO nostalgic with this thread...

Want to see Tyrants be immediately taken?  Don't look at making them better.  Look at making them more useful.

Example:  Give the Tyrant the following rule and watch people start dropping their SMs.

Master of the Tribe:  When the Tyrant gathers his tribe around his Mawstone, ogres gather from far and wide.  As a result, an Ogre Kingdoms army with a Tyrant as general make take a single unit of Maneaters as a Core Unit.

The first thing GW needs to do to make fighty Lords more viable across the board is to simply change that one troublesome little FAQ that says the Standard of Discipline works for IP. Change that answer to "no" and suddenly if you take a wizard lord as your general you'll have to make do with his Ld.

I don't think you need to make maneaters core (although a special character like Golgfag could), although it would no doubt it would make Tyrants popular. Tyrants are just a bit too pricey. I take a Tyrant regularly and he does have advantages over just having a Slaughtermaster but he's just too expensive. Over double the points of a bruiser and a tyrant is really not twice as good. Make a tyrant cheaper and he'll be more viable.

Fixing the Tyrant is easy, bring their toughness up to 6 and have big names cost not come out of magic items points.

Blailah, said it right that the Tyrant is pretty much in line with other loads. But the Tyrant isn't a normal lord, he is the biggest and toughest of a race of 10+ft tall killing machines. Other lords maybe big and bad, however they are more human in size.  I have a hard time with one of these 'smaller' lords dishing out the same number of attack at the same str with the same toughness, while being able to take mounts and get higher armor saves. The doombull has str 6(I think, I don't have that book so I could be wrong) witch I think fits them, while Tyrants would better fit having tough 6.

I definitely agree with ^^^.

Why in the world is a dude that is the baddest of all the ogres who are twice as tall as a man, so much shittier than man sized lords!?!?

Want to see Tyrants be immediately taken?  Don't look at making them better.  Look at making them more useful.

Example:  Give the Tyrant the following rule and watch people start dropping their SMs.

Master of the Tribe:  When the Tyrant gathers his tribe around his Mawstone, ogres gather from far and wide.  As a result, an Ogre Kingdoms army with a Tyrant as general make take a single unit of Maneaters as a Core Unit.

Please....just this...

Fixing the Tyrant is easy, bring their toughness up to 6 and have big names cost not come out of magic items points.

Blailah, said it right that the Tyrant is pretty much in line with other loads. But the Tyrant isn't a normal lord, he is the biggest and toughest of a race of 10+ft tall killing machines. Other lords maybe big and bad, however they are more human in size.  I have a hard time with one of these 'smaller' lords dishing out the same number of attack at the same str with the same toughness, while being able to take mounts and get higher armor saves. The doombull has str 6(I think, I don't have that book so I could be wrong) witch I think fits them, while Tyrants would better fit having tough 6.

Indeed. If we take how much the Stats change between the Tyrant and a basic Ogre and compare it to hom much other Lords gain we will see a massive discrepency.

Tyrants should cost 5 points more and be Str6 and T6. Maybe give them Terror too.

At least if we arn't giving us better options. Which is what makes other Lords truly stupid powerful. Gifts of Chaos and Vampire powers have their own allowances, Big Names should too.

We should have a Big Name to buff each major Stat. and Big Names in general should either be straight stat buffs or special rules.

Rockgut: +1T for 20 pts

Quickclubber: +1I for 20 Pts

Giantbreaker: +1Str for 20 pts

Battlefeeder: 50 pts. If the Ogre with this Big Name causes one or more wounds in combat, he immediately regains a wound he lost previously in the battle.

Mawseeker: 30 pts. +1Ld and stupidity. (his pilgrimmage has inspired the Tyrant but also means his vision sometimes clouds)

Brawlerguts: 20 pts. The Ogre with this Big Name does two Impact Hits rather than the usual one. if a 10 or more is rolled for Charges then he does D3+1 impact hits instead of the normal D3.

Mutated: Pts as listed. The Ogre has been mutated by the powers of Chaos. Pick one of the following mutations from the following list.

Extra Arm: 20 pts. The Ogre has sprouted an additional arm which has proven quite useful in battle, and eating contests. The Ogre gains the Extra Attack special rule and furthermore may gain the bonus for wielding a Shield in combat even if he is armed with a two handed weapon.

Bloated: 30 pts. The Ogre has been excessivly blessed with a massive Gut that even Greasus would be envious of, although the smell is rather unpleasent. The Ogre gains an additional wound.

Aura of Majesty: 20 pts. The Ogre is surrounded with eldrict energies that deflect away even the heaviest of blows. The ogre gains a 6+ ward save or +1 to an existing Ward save if he has one.

Extra head: 10 pts. the Ogre has sprouted an additional head. While it is quite handy during an eating competition and is helpful during a fight, it does sometimes cause a distraction. The Ogre gains +1WS thanks to having two heads to watch for enemy attacks, however the Ogre also gains the Stupidity special rule.

The Tyrant should have more attacks on his profile. Combat Lords have an extra 3 then a basic model in their army. The rest of the stat line is fine, Strength, Toughness and Wounds are all correct. Our Hero combat characters have the same number of attacks as our unit Champions, which is rather odd.

I have only just realised that bruisers have the same attack stat as a unit champion. That is weird and totally out of keeping with the majority of army books.

Bruisers should go up to 5 attacks on their profile and tyrants 6. Then give Tyrants T6 and we are talking.

Could then be a viable alternative to Slaughtermasters with a seperate big name allowance and some new ones.

A very delayed input.

If the tyrant could just pick a 'big name' outside the magic item allowance (like a vampire picks powers) then the tyrant would be able to play with the big boys - maybe not win but compete.

I dont like the unkillable lords but I like lord builds that can do one specific purpose.

Allways thought Tyrants should have the rule that if general then failed ld rolls may be re-rolled for each ogre unit

I've often complained to my gaming group about how poorly GW writers scale things up when size gets involved. The idea that a 10ft tall Ogre is no stronger than an old dwarf an no tougher than a crazy horned forest guy is off. Second our character fail to scale up in stats as well, in wounds they do fine but for our lord level fighting character to have the same strength and attacks as a special unit champion is awful. Its why I seldom take a Tyrant, he is just too small an improvement, if at all, over what we can bring otherwise that he fails to be tyrannical on the enemy.
If you want to increase the ridiculousness, think about how if he is made T6 then he will be just as tough, if not tougher than most monsters in the game. The writers have a fear about making stats above 6 too often and it shows.

Well that's where we get into the idea that a particular value represents a range of actual strength.

So an Ogre would be high end strength 4, a Chaos warrior would be mid range, and a dwarf would be low end strength.

But things are definitely off with the Tyrant having the same attack value as an ogre Champion. Tyrants should have some stats on par with a Greater Daemon. After all, in the fluff they have fought to a stand still before.