Why Can't I Bring a Tyrant???

And I would put forth that a tooled out SM can actually beat out a scary Vamp lord.

Your typical Quickblood Red Fury vampire is Str5. IIRC the guy has 7 attacks.

Hitting on 3s with a reroll. so 6 hits.

Now the Vamp needs 4s to wound. 3 wounds.

My SM runs with the AoD and an IF. So 6+/4+ save. So 1 wound caused. This gives the vamp another attack. Hitting on 3s with reroll and wounding on 4s with a 6+/4+ save. No additional wounds caused.

Slaughtermaster attacks back. I usually give him the Sword of Might.

So 4s to hit and 4s to wound. 1 wound at -2 to armor.


However, the purpose of the SM is not to actually kill the Vampire. Hes just tanking him while his Ogre buddies smash the unit the Vamp is hiding in.

And with the Vampire causing only one wound a turn, the SM is going to just heal that wound back in the following magic phase.

So the SM neuters one of the most devestating combat characters in the game, who eventually dies to Crumble.

Lots of people always get caught-up in the whole "Kill'em!" aspect of the game.  I actually really like the defensive-build SMs.  These always seemed far more strategic to me.  Add to that the fact that a defensive-build SM General still does a great job of supporting and enhancing the capabilities of the rest of the army FAR more than a Tyrant General does, and it was never even a question for me.  My Ninja Tyrant went back to being a Ninja Maneater and I couldn't have been happier.  The Tyrant was always a means to an end, that end being the army-enhancing Slaughtermaster.  Personally I don't really care for the uber-capable single characters.  I'm playing with an army, not with a couple of characters, and thats what I use to win.

The real lame thing is that a tooled up Tyrant isn't even all that killy. They should be up there with Vampires and Chaos Lords.

Sadly, they arn't. We just don't have access to the amazing magic items or special rules those other Lords have.

A Tyrant should be able to slaughter a massive unit of cheap core all on his own, and then have a Dragon as a chaser.

Unfortunatly he's kinda meh as fighty lords go. Nothing really special about him.

  A lot of people are addicted to AE Trollguts, though, so SMs tend to be more popular.

I'd say those people are also addicted to winning

But seriously, is there not a more powerful spell? I would suggest that pit of shades, dwelers bellow, or purple sun would be as powerful if it was AE as opposed to being template, target unit, or vortex...

Bubble Harmonic Convergence, and Bubble Soulblight are in same power level as Bubble Trollguts - in my opinion.

-Snark

Bubble Harmonic Convergence, and Bubble Soulblight are in same power level as Bubble Trollguts - in my opinion.

-Snark

Really... let me ask you this. If one side got to get off automatically bubble soul blight AND bubble convergence every round, while the other side got to get off bubble trollguts every round... which would you pick?

or bubble pha's protection.  Honestly the (absurdly) high casting values for the Maw AoE spells are sufficient to turn me off them.  Besides, how often do you really NEED to buff your whole army?  Most turns (and most games, for that matter) often swing on only a single particular combat.  The fact that you can cast Bullgorger, Toothcracker, AND Trollguts RELIABLY with a slaughtermaster with only 6 dice is the real winning aspect of Maw in my book.  the whole "heal wounds" thing is really just awesome sauce (or is that gravy?) poured on top of that.

and in answer to the question, I'd take bubble soulblight everytime.  You don't need to roll for regen when his guys aren't wounding you in the first place, especially if you kill them.

The only reason you saw Tyrants in the last book was two-fold.

Around here, it was three-fold.

Tenderizer... 

or bubble pha's protection.  Honestly the (absurdly) high casting values for the Maw AoE spells are sufficient to turn me off them.  Besides, how often do you really NEED to buff your whole army?  Most turns (and most games, for that matter) often swing on only a single particular combat.  The fact that you can cast Bullgorger, Toothcracker, AND Trollguts RELIABLY with a slaughtermaster with only 6 dice is the real winning aspect of Maw in my book.  the whole "heal wounds" thing is really just awesome sauce (or is that gravy?) poured on top of that.

and in answer to the question, I'd take bubble soulblight everytime.  You don't need to roll for regen when his guys aren't wounding you in the first place, especially if you kill them.

Our bubbles arn't absurdly high. Only Trollguts has a high casting value needed.

The others are fairly low for bubble AoEs.

I don't mind the casting costs, just the range. So many times I wish it were 18 inches. 12 is so small...

...must...resist...can't....

"That's what she said!"

*runs away*

I know right. Funny day when someone complains about 12 inches. :p

As someone who plays VC almost weekly, I can tell you the Blender Lord example presented was a bad one, so I'll go ahead and put up some more common builds:

Vampire Lord, Armor of Destiny, Beguile (optional), Dragonbane Gem, Quickblood, Red Fury, Sword of Anti-Heroes, The Other Trickster's Shard

This guy will cut through most Slaughtermasters like a hot knife through butter, especially if you have the BSB in the same unit (and most people do). Here's another build I see a lot:

Strigoi Ghoul King, Dragonbane Gem, Potion of Strength, Red Fury, Skabscrath

A bit easier to counter, but gods help you if you didn't gear up against Flaming.

I'll also put a mild objection in regarding a Tyrant not being killy. Sure, he's not in the Doombull/Vampire Lord/Bloodthirster echelon, but he's just a bit below it while costing a lot less points. The only real argument against the big fella in my mind is wanting Lores other than Fire.

In my opinion, what really hurts the Tyrant VS other armies choices (Vamp Lord, etc.) is the fact that Big Names are included in the magic items maximum points. Just imagine being able to pick one Big Name of your choice (no point limit) for your Tyrant + 100pts of magic item!

I think the complaint is that he can't kill those uber characters out there, or that he doesn't kill as much as his point value in troops would, and you can't make him super durable (at least not more-so than an SM), so he doen't really protect his unit either.

A Tyrant is a good model, but he's not at efficient as filling a need in our army as other selections.

I'll also put a mild objection in regarding a Tyrant not being killy. Sure, he's not in the Doombull/Vampire Lord/Bloodthirster echelon, but he's just a bit below it while costing a lot less points. The only real argument against the big fella in my mind is wanting Lores other than Fire.

Why can't you take Lores other than fire? 

Some reason someone is forcing you to take fire bellies over butchers?

Yes, that reason is having a Breath Weapon.

In all seriousness, though, I think that Lore of Fire works better on a L2 caster than any of the Lores a Butcher has access to (with the possible exception of Beasts), and he also helps your units beat Regen and adds a bit more combat "oomph" with his fire breath. If there's no Slaughtermaster, I don't see much reason to take Butchers over Firebellies.

I think they all have utility. Maw on a level 2 isn't usually bad. Obviously Trollguts is the best spell but the others aren't bad and the Lore attribute is useful on a level 2. Beasts gives you Wyssans and a couple of beasts casters is as useful for Ogres as anyone else. Heavens is probably the best Lore for a butcher and I regularly run one - cheap, useful spells and a surprisingly useful signature. Of course, there's the butcher tax to consider, which is a point for firebellies and the breath weapon is nice but butchers are cheaper and can take magic armour.

I can see the merit in a Tyrant and 2 Firebellies. A big pointer for me however is also that with a SM I only have to invest in a BsB. If I run a Tyrant, I still need to buy 3 more characters instead of 1 for it to work. This cuts down on my units.

D...

Yeah, it does. No denying that. The question is, can the extra fighting muscle of the Tyrant make up for that? I believe it can.

Yeah, it does. No denying that. The question is, can the extra fighting muscle of the Tyrant make up for that? I believe it can.

You are right, hence I said I see the merit in it. My remark is pure personal choice. I do not like to spent too much points on characters that cannot act as independant units in this regard (such as pegasus characters for example).

D...

For the record, the Vamp characters I've seen normally pack an Ogre Blade (the irony!) as well as Red Fury and the ASF power. So hitting on 3's with re-rolls at Str 7 with each unsaved wound from the first lot giving him an extra attack... regardless of who's taking it, you'll need a 4+ ward save stat. And those Lords have plenty of points left over for a nice armour and/or ward save.


I've never been that keen on Firebellies myself. I just never seem to get any spells worth faffing about with, and though the breath weapon is nice, I'd rather grab me a Butcher with Wyssan's Wildform (which I consider the fourth Ogre Buff Spell).

Just churn out Toothcracker from the Lvl 4 with a tonne of dice, small version, and make a significant block harder to kill (the +1 toughness seems to make more of a difference to me than Regen), and then have the Lvl 2 Wildform another (or the same block). The opponent's hard pressed to stop all that without a good item, and though you might miscast I find Ogres don't suffer from it as much as other wizards, what with being able to heal and having lots of wounds.



Anyways, the Tyrant! He's alright, but I do find combat lords generally useless unless they're truly able to kill a LOT a turn, and not get annihilated in a challenge. Sword of Striking and Giantbreaker works wonders for the killiness, and the rest of your points can go into a 4+ ward of some kind. Usually that'll do it for most battles, even the hardest of enemy lords will bleed trying to deal with him. And given the amount of dice I tend to chuck at spells I never really need more than the two wizards already mentioned, so a second SM isn't amazing. I may test out a Firebelly however, but I'll probably use him more for his flaming, the breath weapon, channeling, and the ability to carry a hellheart.

I've been a huge fan of a build put forth by someone, Far2Casual, I think.  Anyway, Sword of Striking, Giant Strength, Other Trickster's Shard, Enchanted Shield, and Greedy Fist.

This guy hits with 5 S7 attacks each round (usually two's) with a 3+/6+ save in combat.  Also forces re-rolls to ward saves.  He is a monster and has single handedly won me games before.  He is reliable for 3-4 kills against virtually everything which is a godsend when you need that combat res.  This has been my favorite build by far and probably won't choose anything else.

I have one issue with that guy, and it's that a Doombull, Vampire Lord, or a Greater Daemon will eat him, and do so with little effort, because Giantbreaker will force you right into his hands. He's not defended enough to stand up to the true elites of the close combat world. I'm of the opinion that a character as slow as a Tyrant must be able to hold his own on defense, otherwise he's a dead man walking. Hence, I'd swap the Sword of Striking, the OTS, and Giantbreaker out for the Fencer's Blades and the Glittering Scales.

It's also worth wondering whether 5 WS6 S7 attacks at +1 to hit will out-slay 6 WS10 S6 attacks against most flavors of troops. Let's have a look:

Enchanted Shield, Giantbreaker, Greedy Fist, Heavy Armor, Sword of Striking, The Other Trickster's Shard (A) vs. Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Greedy Fist (B)

WS5 or less, T4 or less, 4+ save or less (example: Empire Greatswords)

A: (5)*(5/6)*(5/6) = 3.47

B: (6)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 3.33

WS5 or less, T4 or less, 4+ save or less, 6+ parry (example: O&G Night Goblins)

A: (5)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(35/36) = 3.38

B: (6)*(2/3)*(5/6)*(5/6) = 2.78

WS5 or less, T4 or less, 4+ save or less, 4+ Ward save (example: High Elf Phoenix Guard)

A: (5)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(3/4) = 2.60

B: (6)*(2/3)*(5/6)*(1/2) = 1.67

WS5 or less, T4 or less, 3+ save, 5+ parry (example: Tzeentch Chaos Warriors)

A: (5)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(8/9) = 3.09

B: (6)*(2/3)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(2/3) = 1.85

WS5 or less, T4 or less, 2+ save, 5+ Ward save (example: Bretonnian Knights of the Realm)

A: (5)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(8/9) = 2.57

B: (6)*(2/3)*(5/6)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 1.48

WS5 or less, T4 or less, 1+ save (example: Chaos Knights)

A: (5)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(2/3) = 2.31

B: (6)*(2/3)*(5/6)*(1/2) = 1.67

WS5 or less, T5, 5+ Regen (example: VC Crypt Horrors)

A: (5)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(2/3) = 2.31

B: (6)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 1.78

WS6-9, T4 or less, 4+ save or less (example: High Elf Swordmasters)

A: (5)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 2.78

B: (6)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 3.33

WS6-9, T4 or less, 4+ save or less, 3+ Ward save (example: Divine Greatness Chosen)

A: (5)*(2/3)*(5/6)*(5/9) = 1.54

B: (6)*(2/3)*(5/6)*(1/3) = 1.11

WS6-9, T5, 4+ save or less, 4+ Ward save (example: Vampire Lord with Armor of Destiny)

A: (5)*(2/3)*(5/6)*(3/4) = 2.08

6: (6)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/2) = 1.33

Verdict: The math does indeed bear A out as the superior offensive combo overall (especially if the defending party has a Ward save), which in turn reinforces its merit as a viable alternative. Still, I'd argue that the superior defensive prowess of loadout B ensures you'll actually get your attacks off, and that's more important, given that the offensive disparity is small in a lot of cases.

Thing is, you can shore up (A) with Trollguts. You can cover it with a dragonbane if you like, that way you can have a 4+ regen or a 2+ fireward.

However, I typically run a variation of (A) just without the Giantbreaker. Sword of Striking, Enchanted Shield, OTS, Greedy Fist. Cheaper and still S6 ... and doesn't have to accept challenges. Works for me.

Trollguts shores up (B) as well. In fact, it makes him pretty darn annoying to kill. So that argument benefits both parties. That said, both those builds will be fielding a pretty bare-bones Slaughtermaster if they're playing at 2500.

My slaughtermaster wears a dragonbane gem and a smile