The Role of Bulls?

As the title says, what do you think the role of Bulls are? I know that the have some things going for them over Ironguts, but to me Ironguts always seem better. In what situations would you take Bulls instead, and what are the usual builds of your Bull units? Also, what are some tactics that you can do with Bulls that Ironguts can't preform? I'm also wondering if a 6 man unit of Bulls is viable.

Thanks! 

I love to use bulls in all my armies, their main advantage is against other troops that always strike last! The ability to dish out damage first is massive for ogre players. Not only that but even if you manage to buff ironguts they will always strike last. Against armies like Orcs, Tomb kings, Dwarfs and lizardmen having I2 is plenty!

Az

2000 points or less I like an even mix of IG and Ogres.
Above that, I only expand my Ogre count - my heavy hitters are in play already. If I'm adding Core it's to suck up wounds/cover flank/etc.

They are much more durable then Ironguts, and against Str3 T3 enemies they actually do more damage.

9 Ironguts with FC are 417 points. Run in 3X3 formation

12 Bulls with IFs and FC are 414 points. Run in 4x3 formation.


So for 3 points less then the IG unit, you gain 12 wounds and 6 attacks to the front.

Comparing them against T3 opponents.

IGs: 19(.5)(5/6)=7.91 wounds with -3 to saves

Bulls: 25(.5)(2/3)= 8.333 wounds with -1 to saves.

Considering that the vast bulk of T3 opponents have only 5+ saves the difference in killing power between the Bulls and IGs is negligable.

Then we have durability.

The Bulls can lose 14 wounds before they lose attacks. The IGs can lose 11.

The Bulls also have a 6+ ward save in addition to the 5+ armor save. It may not seem like much but it is very significant.

Bulls also strike before ASL opponents, as well as Lizardmen and some Undead.

Also, because there are more of them, Bulls get better mileage out of any magical buff spells. +1Str is practically useless on IGs, its godly on Bulls. +1T makes the Bulls survive even long(make what they are good at even better is efficient) and Regeneration is the same deal.


That said, take both. In a 1-2 ration of IGs to Bulls. So 1 unit of IGs to 2 units of Bulls.

You do make a very good point grey templar. Your post actually made me like Bulls over Ironguts, but I still think that the Ironguts have one advantage. The main reason I favor Ironguts over Bulls is that they have access to a magic banner. In my army I give them Standard of Discipline and put my Slaughtermaster and BSB with Crown of Command. In order to have the Irongut bunker be a decent size I use up most of my core points. I'd rather spend the rest on Gnoblars and use my remaining points on other things than Bulls.

Which is why you take one unit of IGs. Its your character bunker.

What are good sizes for Ironguts and Bulls? In my army I use a unit of 10 Ironguts and I have manged to make room for 6 Bulls for with IFs and a Bellower. Is that too small? I could shrink the Irongut unit and make the Bulls larger, but I'm not sure how small I should go for Irongguts.

It works pretty well when running multiple units of 3 naked bulls around on the table.  They can really add some nice combat res when bashing into a flank where one of your main units are fighting in the front. 
When they can't find combo charges they work wonders taking out enemy chaff or acting as chaff themselves and generally getting in the way (giving cover saves to bigger unit etc.).

Which is why you take one unit of IGs. Its your character bunker.

Oddly enough I do the opposite- I use bulls as my character bunker and ironguts as my hammer. But then I run a tyrant so I don't need the standard of discipline for Ld9.

Hear, hear Gutlord!

look at the rest of your army... do you bring buff magic? This is why this debate is endless there are too many variables and situations where one is better than the other.

Though I do recommend just trying a horde of bulls one time its kinda funny...

@MaanNaam
I've always like the idea of running a 3 man unit of naked Bulls, but everybody that reviewed my army list seemed to hate them so I took them out. I think I'll give them a try, but I'll use a 4 man unit with IFs to meet the core minimum.

@Tryptic
Here's the link to my list: http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=25647.0
I use a Slaughtermaster with Maw, so I feel that I have to use Ironguts so I can get Ld 9. I never have enough points for a decent unit of Bulls and Ironguts though. I've been considering using a Tyrant instead, but then I'm lacking in magic defense. I have seen list that run double Firebellies and a Tyrant, but using those 3 and a BSB is too many points in characters in my opinion.

Thanks for all the feed back everybody! 

Honestly, the only time I run ironguts ever is when I expect to face lots of knights and/or high-armor enemies. 

Actually, my absolute favorite time to field Bulls (granted, I always field them) is against other Ogre players, especially those who like to trumpet about how awesome and superior Ironguts are and how weak Bulls are.

Seriously, I'm not being a dick.  But alot of the ogre players at my local game stores were ardent Irongut purists when the new book came out, and I racked up a pretty impressive streak of wins before anyone managed to pop my Bulls.  Whether Bull-Star, Bull-Horde, or Bull-MMU, Bulls beat Ironguts virtually every time.

Alot of it comes down to player style and how you prefer to support them.  Bulls work best with either heavy magic or heavy character support, especially since you get significantly more of them for even minimum core expenditure.

They are named Ogres not Bulls...

(runs for cover)

They are named Ogres not Bulls...

(runs for cover)

+1 Agree

They'll always be Bulls to those of us who actually played with (or against) the original book.

Either way, the role of Bulls is to beat up poorly defended troops (anything with T3 and a 5+ save or less), and to hold up elite hitters (anything with S5+, doubly so if it has WS4+ as well) while the rest of the army either ignores them or sets up the counter-charge. They also make for a nice bunker to transport characters in. All in all, they have their perks.

They are named Ogres not Bulls...

...
I didn't even realize Bulls became Ogres in the new book. Plus I think it's confusing since Ironguts are ogres too..

They're Bulls Dammit! Always ave been an always will, *waddles away like an old codger

They're Bulls Dammit! Always ave been an always will, *waddles away like an old codger

This. And anyone who thinks differently is a bandwagoner (activates level 10 flame shield and runs for cover)

Anyway I like Ironguts better. Unbuffed bulls just cant do the damage for my liking. Still an OK unit though but I would take Ironguts or Maneaters over them any day.

This. And anyone who thinks differently is a bandwagoner(activates level 10 flame shield and runs for cover)

Yes I forsaw the might of the second Ogre book years ago when I started with the Ogre Kingdoms.

Indeed, I am the Emperor from Star Wars...

They'll always be Bulls to those of us who actually played with (or against) the original book.

Not all, especially not someone who registred long before you did...

I liked it more when they were called bulls, but back then they were 35 points a pop IIRC.  So I guess I can't be too bummed out with a name change along with a 5 point drop.

What are good sizes for Ironguts and Bulls? In my army I use a unit of 10 Ironguts and I have manged to make room for 6 Bulls for with IFs and a Bellower. Is that too small? I could shrink the Irongut unit and make the Bulls larger, but I'm not sure how small I should go for Irongguts.

Where points allow I never run mine less than 3x3 with 1 or 2 chars in so a unit size of 7-8 + chars. In higher point games the IG's get bumped to 10 with 2 chars for 4x3 or 3x4  depending on my opponent. I find anything less and you start to lose combat effectiveness before you get into combat.

My Ogres (Bulls for you old skoolers) are pretty much always used to hold enemy units and often act as a bunker for my support mage. They are often capable of more damage output than IG's so it's really who your fighting and what they are using to fight you. I personally take more IG's than Ogres though because Ogre's have marginally more protection so I feel they don't need the extra wounds as much as my IG's.

This. And anyone who thinks differently is a bandwagoner(activates level 10 flame shield and runs for cover)

Yes I forsaw the might of the second Ogre book years ago when I started with the Ogre Kingdoms.

Indeed, I am the Emperor from Star Wars...

They'll always be Bulls to those of us who actually played with (or against) the original book.

Not all, especially not someone who registred long before you did...

I think you know I was joking .

BUT calling a unit in the ogre armybook ogres is a pretty silly move.

"What unit is that"
"These are my ogres"
"Yeah but what unit"

It did happen. No the guy was not a 12 year old.

I think you know I was joking .

BUT calling a unit in the ogre armybook ogres is a pretty silly move.

"What unit is that"
"These are my ogres"
"Yeah but what unit"

It did happen. No the guy was not a 12 year old.

Tell it preacher! My long time friend and gaming partner always has to ask what Ogres my Ogre's are. To which my answer is almost always, Naked looking guys are normal Ogre's, BIG swords are Ironguts and the Ninja Pirate Ogres are Maneaters.... he never learns much to his dismay when he thinks he's held against an Ogre charge when in fact it's Maneaters 

Bulls. 

Enough said.  Just sounds better. 

IG's all the way! When I need to take out S3-T3 targets, I just send my MF's after them. All the tougher targets get the IG treatment. But that's just me.... ...or is it all those WoC warriors that are running around in my area.....

Fair enough; if I know I'm playing WoC, then the IGs definitely come out.  But then, so do the leadbelchers... Lots of leadbelchers...

One of the reasons that I like Ironguts over Bulls (I'm going to keep calling them that.  ) is that I heard that Empire armies where everybody has a 1+ save are popular. It's also nice against WoC, Bretts, Dwarves, and Lizardmen. I also like not having to rely on magic to have my units be good at combat. I feel that magic is too fickle to base a lot of my strategy on it. I haven't played any games of 8th yet, so I could be completely wrong. 

I like them because bulls without buffs are pretty weak when push comes to shove. They are solid against enemy core but everything else slaughters Unbuffed bulls, not so Ironguts. S6 is a boss against almost ANYTHING. And we all know what Toothcracker or Trollguts does to an ogre unit.

Exactly! It's nice when you know who your fighting but in a competitive environment or your looking for a player you don't know what he's playing IG's will carry you thru. And they also let you get some of the other buff's off that a S6 attack doesn't need. Toughness boost, regen, that magic missile or the stubborn spell. With Beast your enemy has to think how many buffs can he let thru before you cast trollguts? Ok, he may be saving his dice to stop trollguts but you get wildform and toothcracker thru. Now your IG's are S7 and T6. Scary prospect!

I like them because bulls without buffs are pretty weak when push comes to shove. They are solid against enemy core but everything else slaughters Unbuffed bulls, not so Ironguts. S6 is a boss against almost ANYTHING. And we all know what Toothcracker or Trollguts does to an ogre unit.

No offense, but this makes no sense.  Anything that kills a bull easily kills an irongut just as easily.  Heck, without the parry save, Ironguts die even faster!  Then there's the fact that Ironguts vs anything with a great weapon only accomplishes mutual destruction since you both swing simultaneously, and a great weapon auto-negates your armor save.  Sure, you might win the combat, but only at the cost of your own unit being killed and/or becoming no longer combat-capable.

And then you mention how awesome the buffs are when applied to ironguts, when in fact they work even better on bulls!  The fact is bulls swing twice when Ironguts swing once.  Before an IG gets to take a second swing, he has to weather 2 sets of attacks.  And there are too many units out there that will do too much damage with those two sets of attacks. 

For instance, A unit of 3x3 ironguts will pump out 18 attacks.  This will typically be 9 hits and 7 wounds, since WS3/WS4 and T3/T4 are identical for them.  Any saves mitigating this are entirely dependant upon what they're hitting.

BUT...

Before they get to swing again, here's what they have to weather (IG armor save and return damage factored in where applicable):
25 HE spearmen: 7 wounds
50 HE spearmen: 15 wounds
20 WoC Warriors (sans mark or gear): 8 wounds
20 WoC Warriors with halberds: 10 wounds
40 WoC Marauders with Flails (sans mark): 12 wounds
40 WoC Marauders with GW (sans mark, common, and for mutual destruction example): 17 wounds
20 Saurus Warriors: 6 wounds
20 Saurus Warriors with spears: 9 wounds
20 Temple guard (assumed 5x4, even though 6x4 with a slann is more common): 13 wounds
40 Stormvermin: 14 wounds
12 Brettonian Knights of the Realm (no characters or damsels, with charge bonus): 7 wounds
9 Grail Knights (with charge): 12 wounds
9 Bulls: 7 wounds
12 Bulls (4x3, similar point values to 9 IG): 10 wounds
18 Bulls (basic horde, no characters, shown for damage progression): 22 wounds
6 maneaters with AHW (because they either have AHW or pistols, its just that common): 17 wounds
8 maneaters with AHW and poison (worst case scenario): 27 wounds

This is what your IGs have to be able to survive to be viable.

I don't think Tanksie's point is that Bulls get slaughtered in the literal sense (as in they get cut down in droves), because it's readily apparent that Bulls are better defensively. I think he's getting at that Bulls get beat by units that Ironguts beat, or damage to the point that someone else can finish them off pretty easily.

And my point is that anything which does that to Bulls (who, as you just said, are better defensively), does it even easier to Ironguts.  Ironguts ONLY benefit is the additional strength, which is ONLY better at punching armor or dealing with high-toughness monsters.  The point I'm trying to illustrate is that against T4 and lower (and normal armor), the benefits of ironguts are truely minimal, especially when compared to what Bulls bring to the table.

This is a interesting debate. It's much like if you look at VC book battle over skel and ghouls.

Our book has no clear core choice, we have a options which is plus in this edition.  It gives a felxable army, in time were copy and past list are everywhere. With a dgree of felx we have it's harder to delvope a base line for countering our list. In what is being called rock paper scissor version warhammer it helps to switch it up.

As for the roll of bulls, IMO I see it at has anvil unit.  Can tarpit than aloud IG to flank/combo charge.
Small bunkers work well.

Each opt we face calls for different tactics, how ever bulls are like jack of all trades master of none.
So they really don't have 1 clear roll. Which can be said about IG. It's comes down coke vs pepsi the difference is noticeable but only to hardcore supporters

And my point is that anything which does that to Bulls (who, as you just said, are better defensively), does it even easier to Ironguts.  Ironguts ONLY benefit is the additional strength, which is ONLY better at punching armor or dealing with high-toughness monsters.  The point I'm trying to illustrate is that against T4 and lower (and normal armor), the benefits of ironguts are truely minimal, especially when compared to what Bulls bring to the table.

Right, but that's not the issue here. The issue here is that there are matchups where IGs get roughed up but win, whereas Bulls just lose to them. That's what's being alluded to - you can't just assume everything you'll face is T4 or lower and will have crappy armor, because that's not representative of what you're likely to face in a given tournament field. It should also be noted that IGs make the life of a Slaughtermaster General a bit easier thanks to the ability to carry the Standard of Discipline.

I always put my SM general and my BSB with the standard of discipline in a unit of bulls.  I find that having 33% more wounds makes my life just as easy.  Heck, half the time I don't bother with the Crown of Command since I'm almost guaranteed Steadfast.

I DO field Ironguts, but as the specialist unit they are, not as the end-all-be-all that so many OK players treat them as.  A smaller unit of them is too useful to ignore, but their price-tag and disadvantages are too great for me to typically build a list centered around them.

As Shaun5603 said, Bulls are a fantastic Anvil unit.  There are a great many things in our army book that make great Hammer units, but none (IMO) that can play Anvil better than Bulls, and there are some armies out there that you simply can't beat with a bag full of Hammers.

I always put my SM general and my BSB with the standard of discipline in a unit of bulls.  I find that having 33% more wounds makes my life just as easy.  Heck, half the time I don't bother with the Crown of Command since I'm almost guaranteed Steadfast.

I DO field Ironguts, but as the specialist unit they are, not as the end-all-be-all that so many OK players treat them as.  A smaller unit of them is too useful to ignore, but their price-tag and disadvantages are too great for me to typically build a list centered around them.

As Shaun5603 said, Bulls are a fantastic Anvil unit.  There are a great many things in our army book that make great Hammer units, but none (IMO) that can play Anvil better than Bulls, and there are some armies out there that you simply can't beat with a bag full of Hammers.

I quite agree with all these comments here.  The extra wounds can really help things along with character protection.  One of the main reasons why Ironguts are used for character bunkers is the fact they can have a magical standard.  Bulls sadly cannot.  Of course over come with BSB but a lot of players don't like having a fragile BSB in thier armies.  A preference thing of course though.

I definitely agree that Ironguts are not be all end all as you say.  This is one of those personal preference moments when it comes to bulls and Ironguts and what you fielding them for.

Though I haven't got many games under my belt I had been thinking of trying a large unit of bulls out to see how they perform.  I do like this Anvil concept.  Hopefully I will get this tried out when I have more time on my hands.

I don't think a BSB with T5 and 4 Wounds can ever be truly characterized as "fragile". He could be more durable, of course, but he's hardly a wimp.

Either way, the thing I dislike about the Bull Bunker is precisely that - there's a whole host of banners/gear I want on my BSB, and the Standard of Discipline isn't on that list. This negates all the other good that it could accomplish over the IG bunker in my mind, plus the fact of the matter is that the Ironguts' relative fragility is completely negated by having those beefy Ogre characters front and center.

I don't think a BSB with T5 and 4 Wounds can ever be truly characterized as "fragile". He could be more durable, of course, but he's hardly a wimp.

Certainly not a wimp! Can't fault that reasoning.