Ogre Almanac - Gnoblars (2006)

Gnoblars… I love them, you love them, they work for you, and they are mobile rations when food gets scarce.  Without the little guys, ogre culture as we know it would be impossible.  Some food for thought…

~How is gnoblar society structured?  Gnoblar leadership (a laughable concept I know…)?  Economy?
~We know many gnoblars live outside of the dubious protection of an ogre tribe… how is life different for them as a ‘free tribe’ in the mountains?  As slaves in Chaos Dwarf territory?
~How are gnoblers different from other greenskins?  Are they, as some speculate, the ‘goblin’ to the hobgoblin ‘orc’?
~From spore to grave, what is gnoblar life like?  Do they have meaningful childhoods?  How long does it take them to become adults, and how long until they die of natural causes (as if it has ever happened before)?
~Gnoblars fill almost every meaningful and productive role in ogre society… got any gnoblar ideas that a tribe just couldn’t live without?
~We know there are a lot of gnoblars out there… but just how many gnoblars can we expect to cohabitate with an ogre tribe?  How many travel with them while hunting?  How many are more permanent residents of the base camp?
~Most importantly… how does gnoblar taste?  Favorite recipies?

Well, because of their size, fungal nature and the environment they live in Gnoblars probably breed like crazy. I'm thinking like 4 per ogre in a camp. This will greatly increase as the terrain becomes more gnoblar friendly (good digging soil, great cave system, igneuos rock will really big holes), and decrease as the environment becomes more hostile, but as a fungus the gnoblar race can survive more inhospitable climates. And similar to how the Orks of 40k work, I can see each release of spores not only generates a good amount of potential gnoblars, but also a large amount of generic mushrooms as a ready food source.

And another thought, biologicaly, chitin is a primary ingredient in the structure of many fungis, and in its pure form (unencrusted with salts) is leathery and tough. A good skin source.

Tackling what's first on the list: Gnoblar society. Let's start at the top: Honchos, Head Honchos, Grand Supreme Majestic Overlords etc.
Basically the term Honcho is an outside term used to describe any Gnoblar who has managed the almost impossible task of uniting several hundred other Gnoblars under his banner. As there are no designated terms for Gnoblar high-ups, they use whatever titles they give themselves, which are generally ostentatious and ridiculous to anyone who isn't a Gnoblar. However, colonies of Gnoblars under a Honcho do not last long for several reasons: 1) The Gnoblars, having achieved the one goal of freedom and independence immediately start bickering amongst themselves. This escalates until the colony has degenerated into a mob, which then begins fighting itself. This begins splitting up into many different little Gnoblar groups, which immediately begin infighting against themselves. In the end, the Honcho is killed, usually by a backstabbing envyer of power and the Gnoblars either come back to the Ogres, find a new, powerful master to protect them, are eaten or migrate to Gnoblar population centres like Pigbarter. 2) The independant Gnoblars form into a Horde (their form of a Waaagh!), go round beating up small opponents, are eventually beaten by something, the Honcho is killed and the Horde breaks up and see 1). 3) The Ogres find them first and make a short but brutal example out of them. Honchos are few and far between, mainly because all Gnoblars are cowards and afraid of what the Ogres will do to them if they rebel, and that only 1 Gnoblar in a 1000 can unite other Gnoblars. Thus, the heads of normal Gnoblar society (excluding that which inhabits Pigbarter), are normally those with ties to the Ogres.

These Gnoblars are divided up into classes (basically the jobs that Ogres give them), and ranks based on the ranks of their Ogre. At the top of these are the Sword-Gnoblars and Fighters, with the Sword-Gnoblars often styling themselves as 'captains' of their Fighter 'regiments'. These Gnoblars, being armed and the biggest of the lot, bully those below them thus keeping them in their place. However, there are three other classes which are outside their jurisdiction: the Luck Gnoblars, who occupy a priestly position among their brethren as being blessed by Luck (which has been deified by the Gnoblars), the Tooth Gnoblars, whose close affiliation with Butchers give them the mysticism and superstitious fear that wizards often receive among Humans, and finally the Trappers, whose aloof and haughty manner, not to mention the rather horrible looking traps they carry, make them too-hard to bully for the Fighters. However, the Fighters do bully those below them, the cleaning-Gnoblars, the carrying-Gnoblars, the snacking-Gnoblars, who in turn have a simple social system based with those with the most demeaning job at the bottom and those with the most envied job at the top. But these job positions are heavily competed over, and as the average Ogre cannot easily tell one Gnoblar from the next, often the occupant of the job switches several times, as an opportunistic Gnoblar either leaps in to fill the shoes of a Gnoblar following a work-related accident (i.e. being mistaked for ground), or does a horribly inventive thing to the holder of the job it wants, without the Ogre noticing or, if the Ogre does notice, caring.

However, below even the most lowly Wiper-Gnoblar are the common Gnoblars. Not for these the perilous comfort of an Ogre camp: they occupy the Tribe's home base, in a network of burrows hollowed out from the earth around the camp, or in a nearby cave network. In the colony, there is very little social order of any meaning, and what there is is based on physical charisteristics: i.e. the nose (or in Gnoblar parlance schnozz) and the ears. The larger the nose or ears, the higher the Gnoblar is among his fellows. These Gnoblars generally form the social elite among the common Gnoblars, and usually act as hunters. There is no family system among Gnoblars because they don't have any, as a Gnoblar is formed from a spore that adult Gnoblars release periodically.

Gnoblar economy is non-existant. Most economies are based on a certain amount of trust, following rules set down by a central government. Gnoblars are all laws unto themselves, have no central government and are, as a species, completely untrustworthy. But there is one exception: hoarding. Gnoblars, in some respects, are like magpies, and will steal anything that isn't nailed down, and if it is, will steal the nails. The size of a hoard affects a Gnoblar's social status whatever he is, from a Honcho, to a common Gnoblar. That is partly why being an Ogre's assistant is such a coveted position, because anything that the Ogre can't use, the Gnoblar carts away. The malicious envy inspired by hoards larger than a certain Gnoblar's own also allows for a form of wealth distribution, as hoards are constantly stolen, all at once or piece by piece. Ogres noticing this have invented a new game, in which a pile of useless junk is plonked in the middle of a circle and a band of Gnoblars is shoved in, and the Ogres laugh while the Gnoblars fight over trash.

The final way for a Gnoblar to earn a social standing is by taming an animal. This is exceedingly difficult as most Mountain of Mourn animals eat Gnoblars. However, for those that do, the Tamers, or Beasty Gitz, enjoy a position of large power as they control weapons perfectly capable of tearing their foes limb from limb. However, Beasty Gitz are very unusual, as more often than not the Git is the casualty, not his 'pet' which often goes on a rampage in the Gnoblar colony, slaughtering all it finds, until the sounds of terrified Gnoblar begin to annoy the Ogres and they come and squash the animal. One very rare species of fangweasel has become so adapted to this that their backs can withstand an Ogre stamp, and are able to swallow 5 Gnoblars at a time.

Well, that's my take on Gnoblar society. Plz comment.

Honestly, I see Gnoblar society as being more or less non-existant around Ogres.  It is somewhat difficult to have a society of your own when you are constantly subjected to the demands of a large, Gnoblar-eating creature, after all.

Essentially, while in the Ogre encampments, I see Gnoblars as being almost completely subjugated.  Possessions would essentially be held in a common pool, as Gnoblars are by their very nature thieves.  If a Gnoblar could not hang onto his favorite broken sharp bit, it was never his in the first place.  Likewise, I don't see much of a hierarchy existing within an Ogre camp.  Sure, a Tyrant's pet Gnoblar might be viewed with awe by the rest of the Gnoblars, but that doesn't make him any less of a slave.

To me, Gnoblars would generally spend their time gathering and preparing food for their masters.  Ogres, after all, would primarily concern themselves with getting meat for their tables, and therefore it would fall upon the Gnoblars to find the vegetable components of a meal.  Furthermore, while I know Pauncho disagrees on the concept of baking, I can see Gnoblars using mud hearths to bake flatbreads made from scavenged wild grain.

The concept of specialized Gnoblars is something that I don't think has branched out too far.  A Sword-Gnoblar, for example, is the pet of one of the tribe's leaders.  Most Gnoblars, I feel, fall into the category of "Whatever-You-Want"-Gnoblar.  Want someone to scratch your back?  Grab a Gnoblar that doesn't belong to an Ogre bigger than you.  Want someone to get you some grub?  Wipe your backside?  Jump down your throat?  You get the point.

When Gnoblars gather outside of the influence of Ogres, however, I believe they can start to understand more about themselves.  This, of course, is a very scary thing for a Gnoblar.  For the most part, what they're understanding is that they're in an ecosystem where just about everything is dangerous to them.  Therefore, like schooling fish, they seek safety in numbers.  However, a Gnoblar is almost by nature submissive, and therefore the little blighters need to find someone to serve.  While this usually leads most escaped Gnoblars to come back to their masters, sometimes a strong-willed Gnoblar will do.  Thus, we have Honchos and Head Honchos.

Within a Gnoblar encampment, I can see plenty of petty bickering and not much work getting done.  Gnoblars being such natural thieves, it would rarely occur that it is often easier to simply do the job (such as cooking) rather than attempt to steal the results (pinching the pie, so to speak).  Thus, it would appear to an outsider that Free Gnoblars seem to live by stealing one another's laundry, where in fact there is a complicated bartering system in place.  Definitely complicated.

I might add more later, but now it is time to put my shoulder to the grindstone.

Gralph Boarbiter

I see society being almost nonexistant, a gnoblar town is just a whole bunch of gnoblars, and only very rarely does one gnoblar call himself the head honcho, usually with a specific goal in mind, and unit the gnoblars into a horde. We know this happens because of the gnoblar horde rules. I can't see gnoblars even forming gangs or long lasting relationships of any kind in these shanty towns, or in ogre encampments. They seem more like a teeming mass of chittering thieves with no structure or direction. And even as slaves they'll bully one another.

However, we do know there are job specific gnoblars. Sword gnoblars are unnaturally long lived ones who've learned to fight, and they follow around their masters. Tooth gnoblars are just particularly unlucky gnoblars who have fallen into the hands of a butcher, and this is probably a life long job, for the same reasons any professional remains employed. Luck gnoblars would be very specific because no one throws away a good luck charm, and you can't just pick up anything off the ground and expect it to be lucky. Trappers are trained professionals, or at least as much as a gnoblar can be. Fighters and scraplauncher gnoblar I see as just the gnoblar who were dragged onto the battlefield at that particular time. And there is one more I that wasn't covered in the book, torch gnoblars. Once a gnoblar goes partially deaf from serving a leadbelcher, it's useless for anything else and stays on the job for life. All other jobs performed by gnoblars are just performed by whoever is closest at the time.

Honestly, I see Gnoblar society as being more or less non-existant around Ogres.

I don't think Gnoblar society under Ogres would be nonexistant. Ogres would clamp down on any leader they see as getting too powerful, but otherwise they simply wouldn't care.

They seem more like a teeming mass of chittering thieves with no structure or direction. And even as slaves they'll bully one another.

The very fact that they bully one another gives us a sense of hierachy, with the strong on top and the weak on the bottom, rather like Ogre society. My theory states that the Fighter 'class' would be on top because they are strong/well-armed enough to bully other Gnoblars.

Sure, a Tyrant's pet Gnoblar might be viewed with awe by the rest of the Gnoblars, but that doesn't make him any less of a slave.

I think we differ on views about Gnoblar slavery. For Gnoblars, slavery is necessary because they need the protection. I doubt Gnoblars even see themselves as slaves, and as the Ogres won't interfere in a Gnoblar colony's day-to-day life, the power struggle to be on top would continue. I believe Ogre's from a Gnoblar view are less masters than bodyguards, and, accordingly, the Gnoblar with the biggest bodyguard (eg. the Tyrant) will exercise the power that brings.

therefore it would fall upon the Gnoblars to find the vegetable components of a meal.

The common Ogre most likely will not eat vegetables. I expect them to be eaten either as flavouring in a special Feast prepared by Butchers or as a last resort when there is a shortage of meat.

Apart from that I agree mostly with u guys.

Gnoblars probably breed like crazy. I'm thinking like 4 per ogre in a camp.

The number was a bit higher in my mind... every ogre probably has a pet gnobler... probably two or three actually.  Important ogres have more of course, maybe five or so personal servant gnoblers, potentially a few sword gnoblers, luck gnoblers, and what have you.  The numbers could be even higher for some Ogres... I mean functionally every hunter has eight little trappers that are his personal servants, and although an important and powerful ogre he isn't as socially important as a Tyrant, Butcher, Slaughtermaster, or probably even Bruiser and thus maybe they have even more personal servants.

Plus this only accounts for the gnoblers that personally serve ogres... the bulk of gnobler society I suspect lives AROUND ogres but not really serving them personally at any given point in time.  Plus we need a large number ambient around to get eaten... that bumps the numbers up even more.  In the end I would venture then maybe... five active and ten 'behind the scene' gnoblers per Ogre (Bulls, Cows, and Whelps).

Honestly, I see Gnoblar society as being more or less non-existant around Ogres.

Even the most subjegated people have a culture... generations of brutal servitute have definetly shaped gnobler culture, but not eliminated it.

Essentially, while in the Ogre encampments, I see Gnoblars as being almost completely subjugated. 

From an ogre perspective I see this as true... ask any ogre and they will certianally tell you about their little edible slaves.  I'd suspect that from a gnobler perspective things are a bit more symbiotic.  Ogres chase away big predators, provide lots of little shiney things to scavange, distribute gnobler spores far and wide by getting them killed in exotic locations, and provide mass amounts of excellent fertilizer to continue the gnobler race.  If a few gnoblers have to die for all these awsome benefits... well greenskins don't have a whole lot of self-preservation instinct to begin with, sounds like a great deal to me.

I don't see much of a hierarchy existing within an Ogre camp.

I have a hard time picturing any greenskin without a clear and established hierarchy in place.  Sure, gnobler instincts are probably thrown way off the mark by massive ogres filling the role of 'orcs' to serve, but even in a large greenskin tribe the lowest goblins still scrap and scheme to see who is on top.  From an ogre perspective, no one really cares... by and large one gnobler is as good as another (and frankly I bet most ogres can't even tell the difference between even the gnoblers that serve them personally).  But gnoblers surely have a pecking order: based on things such as importance and power of the ogre you serve, the size of your ears and nose, the size and shineyness of your personal horde, and (like all greenskins) how big you are.  Unlike traditional greenskin society though I'd guess the ranks are pretty fluid... after all, everyone is just a gnobler so how much stronger could the guy 'above' you in the social system be?  The bickering of gnobler units probably stems in part to little fights over who is actually the leader.

Furthermore, while I know Pauncho disagrees on the concept of baking, I can see Gnoblars using mud hearths to bake flatbreads made from scavenged wild grain.

If we are loose on the definition of 'bread' then I'll agree that gnoblers could be baking it... corn dodgers and flatbread from grain when it is available... and baked 'meal' from subterranian flora perhaps.  My main objection was to OGRES baking bread, not gnoblers.

The concept of specialized Gnoblars is something that I don't think has branched out too far.

I entirely agree... the idea of specialization in gnobler society to the extent that ogres talk about it is one of three things to me... 1: Ogre misunderstanding about the society of the gnoblers, 2: Some sort of Ogre joke, or 3: An ideosyncracy of Ogre language (IE: Whiping-gnobler is a verb-object form of saying 'the gnobler who is or should be whiping me right now or in the past, not a reference to an actual job that a particular gnobler might have).  The exception being luck gnoblers, who are probably held onto pretty tightly by the ogres they are lucky too... and maybe swordgnoblers, filling a special niche between gnobler fighter and personal servant gnobler.

When Gnoblars gather outside of the influence of Ogres, however, I believe they can start to understand more about themselves.  This, of course, is a very scary thing for a Gnoblar.

Exactly!  Which is why gnoblers hang out with ogres... not because the ogres make them (think about it, if any sort of tunnel system exists gnoblers who really wanted to bail out on ogre servitude would be gone) but because it is beneficial to them to be there for a variety of reasons.

I can see plenty of petty bickering and not much work getting done.

I actually picture gnoblers as pretty industrious little guys.  Ogres get almost no work done really, just hunting and eating... everything else that needs to be done falls on the little stooped green shoulders of gnoblers.  While a fair amount of random theivery, bickering, and lounging occur 'behind the scenes' in the parts of gnobler camp away from prying ogre eyes... I'd guess gnoblers are getting a whole lot done.  Gathering food, watching infants, hauling away waste, carrying packs, fetching things, carrying messages, crafting things, keeping watch, scouting, tracking prey animals... and all of this for the ogres, let alone fulfilling their own needs.  Far from being lazy, any gnobler that doesn't get eaten or sat on has a strong possibility of droping dead from being worked to death.

where in fact there is a complicated bartering system in place.  Definitely complicated.

Hrm... some sort of distance reciprocity system mirroring the ever shifting social heirarchy... deeply confused because of the amount of actual random theft also involved, coupled with complications of the often quick deathrate of gnoblers necessitating redistribution of hordes frequently...

The common Ogre most likely will not eat vegetables. I expect them to be eaten either as flavouring in a special Feast prepared by Butchers or as a last resort when there is a shortage of meat.

The current model I am working off of has Ogres more omniverous than that... while ogres greatly prefer meat, nothing edible (and for an ogre that is alot) survives long around an ogre tribe: either an ogre eats it, or a gnobler eats it then gets eaten by an ogre!


OK a few more questions I thought of...

The potential of relationship between Gnobler and Hobgoblin continues to intrigue me... both kinda come from the same area, both are kinda weedier cowardly versions of other greenskins, both have significant physical and cultural differences from other greenskins (other greenskins on this planet and, in an extended fluff sort of way, all greenies in the universe it seems) without much of an explination as to why they are different. Any thoughts, or is this idle speculation interesting only to me?

Also... though this gets just a bit off topic... With very few exceptions, I don't see most ogres doing any real 'work' other than hunting in a tribe.  Cleaning, setting up camp, and even most feats of craftsmanship are gnobler jobs.  I especially don't see ogres doing any menial jobs: there are no Ogre peasants, no farmers, no lumberjacks.  Ogre society can exist without those jobs as well, after all gnoblers gather food and can get wood.  The one big thing I am struggling with Ogres getting in this vein is metal.  No way are Ogres mining metal, and while gnoblers are workhorses they seem to need Ogre presence to keep at a job for very long.  While Ogres may fight for and trade for metal supplies, alot of the personal affects (gut plates, weapons, boot plates, personal decorations) are made from metal... and ogres are not known for maintaining their gear well, so it has to be replaced somewhat regularly.

So are there little gnobler mines out there somewhere, potentially with ogre task masters making sure they keep at the job?  Or are ogre metal supllies universally obtained through plunder and trade?

Even the most subjegated people have a culture... generations of brutal servitute have definetly shaped gnobler culture, but not eliminated it.

Unfortunately, I do not consider Gnoblars to be "people."  To be honest, I despise that GW made the Ogre Kingdom background have amazing parallels to Orc and Goblin fluff.  Still, I don't see Gnoblars as having much in the way of "culture"--I highly doubt that there are Gnoblar musicians, artists, poets, and the like.

Ogres chase away big predators, provide lots of little shiney things to scavange, distribute gnobler spores far and wide by getting them killed in exotic locations, and provide mass amounts of excellent fertilizer to continue the gnobler race.

Keep in mind that Ogres are also one of the biggest predators out there and that anything that we know of that lives in the Mountains of Mourn (aside from the hedgehogs that are mentioned under "sharp stuff") can kill a Gnoblar.

I have a hard time picturing any greenskin without a clear and established hierarchy in place.  Sure, gnobler instincts are probably thrown way off the mark by massive ogres filling the role of 'orcs' to serve, but even in a large greenskin tribe the lowest goblins still scrap and scheme to see who is on top.

In a large greenskin tribe, there are Goblin Bosses, Big Bosses, and Shamen.  In an Ogre tribe, there are Groinbiters and Snarefingers, but never any Honchos or Head Honchos.  Whether this is a function of the Ogres squooshing any Gnoblar that becomes influential enough to reach "hero status" is debatable.  It's very likely that Gnoblars do not "develop" into Honchos unless removed from Ogres.  Likewise, it's possible that the other "variations" of Gnoblar (Lucky Gits, Manbiters, Boglars, etc.) only develop outside of the presence of Ogres.  After all, a Gnoblar tribe doesn't need self-defense mechanisms if they've got a handy tribe of Ogres.

If we are loose on the definition of 'bread' then I'll agree that gnoblers could be baking it... corn dodgers and flatbread from grain when it is available... and baked 'meal' from subterranian flora perhaps.  My main objection was to OGRES baking bread, not gnoblers.

I can understand that.  I never really meant to imply that Ogres were bakers.  However, I can see Butchers forcing a few Gnoblars to cook up a heap of flatbread for a feast.

I actually picture gnoblers as pretty industrious little guys.

I would agree with you, so long as you add "In the presence of Ogres."  Once Gnoblars realize that someone is not going to eat you for being lazy, I would imagine that they stop being such hard little workers and fall towards basic Greenskin nature.

Ogres get almost no work done really, just hunting and eating... everything else that needs to be done falls on the little stooped green shoulders of gnoblers.

Honestly, can you tell me what more really needs to be done in a Ogre encampment?  I'm not being facetious here, but my vision of an Ogre camp is something somewhat temporary and somewhat mobile.  Effectively, I see most of the Bulls and the like sleeping under the stars while a cave is used as shelter for the Cows and Calves.  If there are anything like structures, I would imagine them to be yurts and the like rather than permanent buildings.  As such, I do not see a lot of every-day work for Gnoblars to do other than make what repairs they can, gather food, and do whatever it is an Ogre wants them to.

The current model I am working off of has Ogres more omniverous than that... while ogres greatly prefer meat, nothing edible (and for an ogre that is alot) survives long around an ogre tribe: either an ogre eats it, or a gnobler eats it then gets eaten by an ogre!

Definitely.  However, I'd state that since Ogres appear to be such a gustatorily-inclined culture, that vegetation would have to be used in order to create appealing dishes.  After all, there is only so much you can do with meat by itself.

Sidenote:  How the heck do you fry anything in horse's blood?  I think GW made a bit of a mistake there.

The potential of relationship between Gnobler and Hobgoblin continues to intrigue me... both kinda come from the same area, both are kinda weedier cowardly versions of other greenskins, both have significant physical and cultural differences from other greenskins (other greenskins on this planet and, in an extended fluff sort of way, all greenies in the universe it seems) without much of an explination as to why they are different. Any thoughts, or is this idle speculation interesting only to me?

It's certainly not interesting to me.  No offense meant.  It's just that there's no conclusive evidence one way or another and GW has never mentioned any sort of link between Hobgoblins and Gnoblars.  Furthermore, I'd really hate for yet another interesting species to be turned into "Orcs and Goblins redux."

The one big thing I am struggling with Ogres getting in this vein is metal.  No way are Ogres mining metal, and while gnoblers are workhorses they seem to need Ogre presence to keep at a job for very long.  While Ogres may fight for and trade for metal supplies, alot of the personal affects (gut plates, weapons, boot plates, personal decorations) are made from metal... and ogres are not known for maintaining their gear well, so it has to be replaced somewhat regularly.

Two words:  Chaos Dwarves.  I do not believe that Ogres or Gnoblars have any sort of mining facilities.  That stretches my level of disbelief a bit too far.  Rather, I think all the metal that is used on the miniatures themselves is something of a screw-up on GW's part.  After all, if all Ogres are armed with an Ogre club, why do so many of them come with scimitars?

Gralph Boarbiter

I highly doubt that there are Gnoblar musicians, artists, poets, and the like.

Perhaps you misunderstand how I mean the word culture.  I don't mean it like the adjective 'cultured' would be.  The word culture can be used to describe the social structure and rules of any animal that lives in a group.  Gnoblers may not have song and dance, but they probably do have games (wrestling, races, the kind of things you see to show status for status concious critters)... they may have their own language (or at least dialect), pehaps an economy, and certianally a social stratification system.

Keep in mind that Ogres are also one of the biggest predators out there and that anything that we know of that lives in the Mountains of Mourn can kill a Gnoblar.

True, but getting killed and eaten after a year or two of serving an ogre is leaps and bounds superior to being killed and eaten by a pack of sabretusks days after birth.  It isn't that ogres let them live... almost every gnobler death can probably be attributed to an ogre one way or another... it's that living with ogres they live longer and with reletive safety.

In an Ogre tribe, there are Groinbiters and Snarefingers, but never any Honchos or Head Honchos.  Whether this is a function of the Ogres squooshing any Gnoblar that becomes influential enough to reach "hero status" is debatable.  It's very likely that Gnoblars do not "develop" into Honchos unless removed from Ogres.

If there were 'honchos' and 'head honchos', would an ogre even notice?  There isn't much of an appreciable difference between one gnobler and another from an ogre perspective, and even the biggest and most independant gnobler wouldn't look much different than any other gnobler 'fighter' who doesn't do personal service anymore.  Gnoblers run around, some do work, some don't... as long as there are enough around to do an ogre's laundry and scratch his back what the other ones do is no concern to an ogre.  Still, in practice, I agree that with ogres filling the instinctual role of 'Bosses' that greenskins crave (in a way that a gnobler never could even approximate) would have no 'leaders' arising among the gnoblers that live with ogres.  Maybe once in a while with gnoblers that live in the mountains without an ogre tribe, or perhaps in those that live in ogre base camps that are away from ogre influance for long periods of time it could happen, but not in general.

However, I can see Butchers forcing a few Gnoblars to cook up a heap of flatbread for a feast.

Very true, I'm sure the little cadre of gnoblers that serve each butcher (that arn't unlucky enough to become tooth gnoblers) are little chef's assistants... baking bread, chopping vegetables, stirring sauce, and occassionally becoming a garnish.

I would agree with you, so long as you add "In the presence of Ogres."  Once Gnoblars realize that someone is not going to eat you for being lazy, I would imagine that they stop being such hard little workers and fall towards basic Greenskin nature.

Which, in the case of the ever small 'eternal snotling/goblins' gnoblers means a lot of scavaging and nervous hiding from predators... and fighting eachother to determine who is boss!

Honestly, can you tell me what more really needs to be done in a Ogre encampment?  I'm not being facetious here, but my vision of an Ogre camp is something somewhat temporary and somewhat mobile.

You should go comment on the weekly discussion #2 about ogre environment, there was a discussion about how ogre camps are organized there.  Basically, while most of the time ogres are in large traveling camps, there has to be a 'home base' somewhere... Tyrant fluff tells us they have a cave that they chain Slave Giants in, and keep other war trophies in.  They also tell us that a 'feasting lodge' exists somewhere, which sounds like a more perminant structure.  While traveling there wouldn't be much to do for a gnobler... gather food, watch infants, scout for prey animals, watch for predators, make basic repairs, set up and take down camp, run messages between ogres, and 'personal service' of back scratching, tick removing, pack carrying, second helping fetching, etc... along with all the 'gnoblerly' stuff they do to: bickering, thieving, sleeping...

Actually that sounds pretty busy.  But at home base things would pick up even more.  Home base one would have to worry about ogre waste buliding up, so gnoblers probably have to haul that away to a cesspit... gnoblers probably do alot of the 'crafting' with cloth, leather, bone, and maybe even smaller metal items at home base... of course, feasts take place at home so lots of extra work preparing for and serving feasts... plus a few gnoblers need to find time to build scrapper launchers and train rhinoxen... and ogre games, pit fights, and ceremonies take place which probably means even more work for a gnobler...

Sidenote:  How the heck do you fry anything in horse's blood?  I think GW made a bit of a mistake there.

Hrm... use it like steak sauce, to be placed on and cooked into meat while it is fryed?

Furthermore, I'd really hate for yet another interesting species to be turned into "Orcs and Goblins redux."

Hobgoblins and gnoblers are both greenskins, which like it or not share alot of characteristics.  I just wonder why we have two species of greenskin so different than how the billions and billions of other greenskins seem to work living in the same area... a connection isn't a necessity but it certinally raises eyebrows to me.

Two words:  Chaos Dwarves.

A good source, to be sure... and that combined with raiding and bringing home supplies as a returning maneater might account for all the metal we see.  But I do agree with you that it is unfortunate the amount of metal we see on the miniatures, it makes it hard to bulid something in economically to support that much metal being around.  We have gut plates, boot plates, and weapons (whether all-metal weapons like scimitars or ironfists, or metal bindings on the ogre clubs), random decorative plates bolted into the skin, probably nails used in scrapperlauncher construction, tools and teeth of butchers, potentially eating utensils, and other random tools around camp.  This problem is especially troublesome when one thinks of just how much metal has to go into these large things!  Each bootplate seems to take up as much metal as a human breastplate would... and the amount of metal required to build a irongut 'hook sword' is huge!  It all has to be replaced fairly regularly too... just what services are ogres doing for the Chaos Dwarves that their entire race gets enough metal to support this?

Each bootplate seems to take up as much metal as a human breastplate would... and the amount of metal required to build a irongut 'hook sword' is huge!

From what I think, ogres don't need to trade with chaos dwarves at all unless they need leachbelcher cannons or other "multiple working parts" equipment. Let's keep in mind the gnoblar scrappers here. The whole job of a real life junk scrapper is to seperate biological waste from metal waste and melt down the metal to use or sell. Ogres fight a lot, and after every battle, gnoblar scrappers would run all over the battlefield. You only need so many swords to be shot in a scraplauncher, I imagine the rest of the swords, sheilds, armour, horse shoes get melted down by the scrappers later, and poured into simple "dirt molds" carved out of dry clay in the ground and let harden into things the ogres need. Think how much metal you could get by boiling down what remained of a chaos knight!

But back on the topic of gnoblars....XD I agree ogres probably except in the occasions where they have luck gnoblars, don't really make distinctions in gnoblars. The most comman ogre gnoblar name is probably "Hey you!" If an ogre tyrant dropped his luck gnoblar accidently into a pile of regular gnoblars, he'd never find it again. (unless he stamped on them all hoping that the one lucky enough to avoid being squished was his XD)

P.S. Do you want me to post the original gnoblar article I did here pauncho?

Gnoblers may not have song and dance, but they probably do have games (wrestling, races, the kind of things you see to show status for status concious critters)... they may have their own language (or at least dialect), pehaps an economy, and certianally a social stratification system.

I highly doubt that Gnoblars have an economy whilst enslaved.  Put simply, everything they possess belongs to their masters, so trading would be somewhat out of the question.  Perhaps a barter system might be in effect, but even that seems like a stretch.

True, but getting killed and eaten after a year or two of serving an ogre is leaps and bounds superior to being killed and eaten by a pack of sabretusks days after birth.

Actually, that depends on the reproductive maturity of a Gnoblar.  If they are not able to reproduce after two years of life, then it is more efficient for the species for the ill-fated Gnoblar to die at birth and thus leave resources handy for Gnoblars that might be able to reproduce.

If there were 'honchos' and 'head honchos', would an ogre even notice?

Most likely not.  However, there is a startling omission of Honchos and Head Honchos in the Army List for Ogre Kingdoms.  We know they supposedly exist in the Warhammer world, but it's odd to see them in one army and not in another.

Which, in the case of the ever small 'eternal snotling/goblins' gnoblers means a lot of scavaging and nervous hiding from predators... and fighting eachother to determine who is boss!

I see Gnoblars spending a lot of time scuffling amongst themselves and hiding, but to an average Gnoblar, it's a lot safer, and a lot less work, to merely steal another Gnoblar's food as opposed to scavenging himself.

You should go comment on the weekly discussion #2 about ogre environment, there was a discussion about how ogre camps are organized there.

I believe I did.  Honestly, there's little point in posting in these threads, since it is becoming more and more apparent that your view of Ogre society is unlike to change.  It's an interesting read, but I do not feel that anything is being accomplished.

Basically, while most of the time ogres are in large traveling camps, there has to be a 'home base' somewhere...

Why do they have to?  Seriously, please give a valid reason here for a permanent "base" for an Ogre tribe, as opposed to one or two fixtures that can be traveled to as necessary.

Tyrant fluff tells us they have a cave that they chain Slave Giants in, and keep other war trophies in.

To begin with, not every Tyrant has Slave Giants.  Secondly, a cave is a cave, not a home base.  It can be guarded with a few trusted Ogres and largely left alone when not needed.

They also tell us that a 'feasting lodge' exists somewhere, which sounds like a more perminant structure.

It might be permanent, but it does not necessitate an Ogre base or city or town or anything of that sort.  Rather, it implies a building that can be used when necessary.

Hobgoblins and gnoblers are both greenskins, which like it or not share alot of characteristics.  I just wonder why we have two species of greenskin so different than how the billions and billions of other greenskins seem to work living in the same area... a connection isn't a necessity but it certinally raises eyebrows to me.

We have had Hobgoblins for quite some time in the Warhammer world.  Gnoblars, honestly, just seem like Goblins to me.

Gralph Boarbiter

I imagine the rest of the swords, sheilds, armour, horse shoes get melted down by the scrappers later, and poured into simple "dirt molds" carved out of dry clay in the ground and let harden into things the ogres need. Think how much metal you could get by boiling down what remained of a chaos knight!

Hrm... perhaps.  Metal to reforge could come to a tribe pretty regularly if they had non-ogre neighbors... and maneaters probably bring back plenty of 'trophies' when they return to a tribe that ultimetly get melted down for raw material.  As for dirt molds (and carved stone molds), this is a good way to form gut plates and shoe plates... maybe nails and basic tools as well.  To make metal strong enough to be used as ogre weapons there probably still needs to be a forging process though.  They are a bit big for gnoblers to do much 'smithing' with them, which means they get weapons from non Ogre sources... or there exists crude ogre 'blacksmiths' (Bruisers?  Ironguts?) who do the work.

P.S. Do you want me to post the original gnoblar article I did here pauncho?

Please do, I think it is a strong case for gnobler life outside of ogre influance.

I highly doubt that Gnoblars have an economy whilst enslaved.  Put simply, everything they possess belongs to their masters, so trading would be somewhat out of the question.  Perhaps a barter system might be in effect, but even that seems like a stretch.

Barter systems are economies too... and isn't there fluff about ogres gathering ogre teeth as currency, or am I dreaming.  Most things a gnobler would own would be stuff an ogre wouldn't care about: shiney rocks, weapons and scraps too small to be useful to an ogre, inedible trophies.  Not that they really *need* it to get what they want, like most greenskins gnoblers are pretty communal: everyone kinda half-assed contributes to the good of the group, 'owning' things would be more about the status and show of strength of being able to keep them than any actual useful purpose.

Actually, that depends on the reproductive maturity of a Gnoblar.  If they are not able to reproduce after two years of life, then it is more efficient for the species for the ill-fated Gnoblar to die at birth and thus leave resources handy for Gnoblars that might be able to reproduce.

Very true... I am not very familiar with 40k fluff (which is probably the best source to look to now that it is more explicitly tied to fantasy fluff for greenskins), but I had some assumptions that they were sort of always reproductive, or at least as long as they existed in a humanoid type form.  If this isn't the case than things do shift around as to what would be best.  The fact remains that cohabitating with ogres is almost certianally a positive thing for gnoblers to do, and reproductive success by 'extending' the amount of time spores can be released and the range at which they are released seemed like a good bet to me.

However, there is a startling omission of Honchos and Head Honchos in the Army List for Ogre Kingdoms.

We have groinbiters, which are leaderesque (but then again, in functionality who ever fields a groinbiter in their armies?) but you are right, a Honcho arising when ogres are around is probably exceedingly rare and results either in a little slave rebellion (how would an OK army VS Gnobler horde army play out?) or simply an exodus in the night of the Honcho and his little posse.  Given the number of gnoblers around, I doubt they would notice a skirmish size army of gnoblers leaving in the night.

I see Gnoblars spending a lot of time scuffling amongst themselves and hiding, but to an average Gnoblar, it's a lot safer, and a lot less work, to merely steal another Gnoblar's food as opposed to scavenging himself.

In the short run maybe, but that doesn't seem to be a very sustainable long term system... a few gnoblers do all the scavaging and everyone back home eats it all?

I believe I did.  Honestly, there's little point in posting in these threads, since it is becoming more and more apparent that your view of Ogre society is unlike to change.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  While perhaps I am sticking a bit strongly to my 'overarching vision', many of the details have shifted around thanks to these discussions.  If I didn't feel I were getting good info from this I wouldn't be doing it, I would just work on the project in my free time and post it all at once as a finished project.

Why do they have to?  Seriously, please give a valid reason here for a permanent "base" for an Ogre tribe, as opposed to one or two fixtures that can be traveled to as necessary.

My view of a home base *is* just a few fixtures (though more than one or two) that can be travelled to as necessary.  No ogres are living there full time (subject to change when we start discussing females again and butchers/slaughtermasters): just gnoblers and buildings.  The vast majority of time is spent traveling around: only after a very successful hunt when feasting is an option and 'downtime' is an option would they make the trek back to the mountain base.  A cave where the tyrant lives, maybe other caves or semi-perminant tents for other prominent ogres, a sacrificial pit for gorgers to live under, a place to keep war trophies, a semi-perminent feast hall and cooking facilities, and maybe a forge, hide tanning racks, and other crafting stuff would stay at home.  Heck I don't even want a few ogres guarding the place, the gnoblers take care of the place while the ogres are away hunting, and it is probably near the center of an ogre's 'territory' and unlikely to be attacked.  I think our visions agree with eachother quite a bit...

We have had Hobgoblins for quite some time in the Warhammer world.  Gnoblars, honestly, just seem like Goblins to me.

They are described by the empire researcher as 'hill goblins', and the bretonian song also calls them hill goblins.  But they are anatomically different (nose and ears) than other goblins, and don't seem to fight eachother as viciously as other greenskins (bicker is much less aggressive than animosity).  Hobgoblins also bicker right?

Anyways my question is, more broadly, is why are there gnoblers and hobgoblins in the warhammer fantasy world but no equivalent in the vast hordes of Orks in 40k?

Here is my personal view on the relationship with Hobgoblins and Gnoblars:
GW doesn't tell us exactly where the greenskin species originated in the Warhammer World (on an off-note, do u guys think its time we got a proper name for our world? Something that might be used by the peoples that inhabit it?), but we can assume that the spores that spawned them spread resonably evenly over the world. The southern Darklands will have been a prime place for the spores to develop, and so, the forerunners of three greenskin species, the Goblins, Hobgoblins and Gnoblars originated there. This original species will have been shaped by the environment in which the spores landed, and the Darklands then, though reasonably dangerous were far from inhospitable. There will have been little need for hardiness as with the Orcs that originated in the mountains, but more need for intelligence to outwit the herds that roamed the plains. This need for cunning in order to obtain meat created the famous sly cunning of the Goblin race. The forerunner tribes will have grown, developed and discovered fire quickly, and, as they did so, different types began to be distinguishable from the whole. One body of tribes began to favour night-hunting as a method of catching prey. To help this, their olfactory and auditory senses improved so they were able to detect their prey, and they became smaller, so they could creep through the long grass without being spotted. These eventually developed into Gnoblars. A small offshoot of these  migrated to swampland, where they developed a method of faster breeding to combat losses taken from swamp diseases, and became Boglars. A second group began to value weaponry to gain their food, thus becoming more intelligent. Such focus on weapons led to internal conflict and the body of tribes shattered, some fleeing into the Wolrd's Edge mountains, some into the forests of the Old World, some taking shelter with the other bodies of tribes (it is because of this tribal interbreeding that the particualarly vicious Blood Gnoblar strain originated). These became the various denominations of Goblins who were spiteful, bitter thanks to their conflict and warlike. Finally was a body of tribes who managed to tame the wild wolves of the plains as mounts to let them chase down their prey. As a consequence, this tribe grew taller than their fellows, and developed into fabulous riding hunters. Their skills with bow and spear from wolfback allowed them to assert themselves among the various human tribes of the steppes. Thus the Hobgoblins originated. With the forerunners of the Goblins gone from the steppes, only two denominations remained, and a bitter struggle was fought to determine supremacy. Due to their cavalry and superior weapons, the Hobgoblins won, banishing the Gnoblars to the foothills of the Mountains of Mourn. This was not a good environment for a Gnoblar, as their small stature and lack of natural or artificial defense made them an easy meal for many of the predators in that area. This, combined with the continuing persecution of the Gnoblars by the Hobgoblins caused the race to become fearful. They began constructing burrows for their safety, becoming even smaller as they did so. Their intelligence too diminished, under the weight of their fear. This fear also caused the maliciousness of the Gnoblar species, as scared people will often take their pain out on others. The Gnoblars were slaves long before the Ogres arrived in the mountains: slaves to the terror of the night, of their own mortality. Where once a flourishing species had hunted on the plains, the descendants of that species march to the will of more powerful races: the Goblins under the Orcs, the Hobgoblins under the Chaos Dwarfs and the Gnoblars under the Ogres.

Tell me what u guys think, K?

The Gnoblars were slaves long before the Ogres arrived in the mountains: slaves to the terror of the night, of their own mortality.

Tell me what u guys think, K?

Yeep. Just reading what you wrote is rather creepy. If ever I wanted to hug a gnoblar and tell him everything was alright it's now. ^o^ *hugs, gets bitten and needs shots for rabies*

I as a whole feel really sorry for gnoblars. Yeah, they're mean little buggers, but that's only because they need a way to take out their pain and frustration. I wonder what would happen if an ogre tribe actually treated their gnoblars with more respect, surely happy slaves would be more productive then unhappy ones.

Really neato ideas on how all the goblinoids evolved too! It sounds sorta like how anthropologists write about humans evolving. ^^

To make metal strong enough to be used as ogre weapons there probably still needs to be a forging process though.

Again, read the Ogre Kingdoms Army Book and see how many weapons are made out of metal.  There's not exactly a whole lot.  Unfortunately, the designer of the miniatures decided to put metal everywhere.  I personally feel that this is not something we, as players, should try to reconcile.  After all, if a miniature does not fit with the background of an army, it is the sculptor's fault and not the background's.

Barter systems are economies too... and isn't there fluff about ogres gathering ogre teeth as currency, or am I dreaming.

I think you're confusing Ogres with Orcs and/or Orks.  It's easy to do, seeing as how GW likes to classify any non-good "fighting" race as either malignly clever, but doomed to failure, or just like the Orcs.

Given the number of gnoblers around, I doubt they would notice a skirmish size army of gnoblers leaving in the night.

I think that depends entirely on the amount of Gnoblars servicing an Ogre tribe at any given moment.  To be honest, I don't believe there to be as many Gnoblars as you do, although that might be my personal bias against including "Goblins" in my army.

In the short run maybe, but that doesn't seem to be a very sustainable long term system... a few gnoblers do all the scavaging and everyone back home eats it all?

Who said anything at all about sustainable?  I do not believe that an all-Gnoblar society would be able to survive more than a season without falling into complete anarchy.  Perhaps this is part of the reason why they need the guidance of others.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  While perhaps I am sticking a bit strongly to my 'overarching vision', many of the details have shifted around thanks to these discussions.  If I didn't feel I were getting good info from this I wouldn't be doing it, I would just work on the project in my free time and post it all at once as a finished project.

"A bit strongly" is understating it, in my opinion.  Rather, it seems as though you are trying to justify your project by asking others for their input and then posting it as a "collective effort" when, in fact, it is largely your ideas with perhaps a few tidbits from others.  It's a common thing to do in areas such as these, though--adding a few more names to the contributors makes what one submits seem far more official.

My view of a home base *is* just a few fixtures (though more than one or two) that can be travelled to as necessary.

I don't see how these areas need to be nearby in any way, shape, or form.  A Gorger pit would be found wherever a sinkhole of sufficient depth is.  Likewise, a Slavegiant cave could be located wherever a cavern of sufficient size is.  And a feasthall would likely be somewhere in the lowlands where Ogres could congregate more easily, anyways.  All the other fixtures, in my mind, would be either transportable (carrying a tanning rack is not a particularly onerous burden) or be a makeshift structure erected on the spot.

They are described by the empire researcher as 'hill goblins', and the bretonian song also calls them hill goblins.  But they are anatomically different (nose and ears) than other goblins, and don't seem to fight eachother as viciously as other greenskins (bicker is much less aggressive than animosity).  Hobgoblins also bicker right?

They look slightly different.  Of course, so do the different races of humanity.  I do not propose that a difference in size of nose and ears be enough to classify something as an entirely different species, nor to say that it is in some way linked to a race that, historically, has had no association with other Greenskins other than as slaves to the Chaos Dwarfs.

Anyways my question is, more broadly, is why are there gnoblers and hobgoblins in the warhammer fantasy world but no equivalent in the vast hordes of Orks in 40k?

The same reason why there are no Forest Spirits in 40k.  And why there are no Dwarfs or Chaos Dwarfs.  And why there are no Space Marines in WFB.  And why there is no magic in 40k and no Psykers in WFB.  Different background, different universes (say what you will about the "link" between WFB and W40k, there is no definitive document that states that they are set in the same universe).

Gralph Boarbiter

There is no link between WFB and 40K in a sense, they just seem similar. Other then Chaos deamons and Zoats (a Tyranid creature which was in both systems in a time long long ago) there are no other trans-system models.

But I have to say that Dwarfs did once live in the 40K world under the name of Squats. A long lost race that went the same way as the Genestealer Hybrids Army. They had no Phykers, used runes and hated Orks and Gretchin (Grots to the young generation). Sound familiar. If you look hard enough into histroy they can be found in the 1st and 2nd edition of 40K as well as Space Marine and Titian Liegons (early Epic games).

Anyway enough of this, we should be getting back to our Gnoblar talk, for which I have only one thing to say...I love the little buggers!!!!