Mephiston

It's been too long since I've looked at the Blood Angels Codex to remember his rules, but can somebody tell me what the deal is with Mephiston?

7 WS, 5 BS, S 6, T 6, W 5, I 7, A 4, Ld 10.

With these kinds of numbers how is he balanced? He's not even the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels and he makes Kaldor Draigo and Abbadon the Despoiler look like wimps.

I'm not entirely sure as to the exact justification, but try thinking of him as a Fantasy Vampire in power armour with a Space Marine physiology and it might make a bit more sense. It could also have something to do with his trials underground mentally unlocking some of Sanguinius' gene seed and bringing him closer to his gene-father. Or something.

Basically that.

Balance wise, he is not an IC and has no invuln save. And has the price tag of a Landraider.

Just treat him like a smaller monstrous creature, and  you should do alright.  A squadron of vendettas usually puts paid to him.

Basically that.

Balance wise, he is not an IC and has no invuln save. And has the price tag of a Landraider.

This.

He's not an independent character, so he can basically get picked out by your shots. That combined with the fact he has no invuln means your plasma guns can go to town on him.

He is a beast in combat, but that's pretty much it. He's an expensive beat stick. 

Mat Ward wrote the Codex, that should tell you all you need to know about this "balance"

He's either a terrible character or the cheesiest thing in the game!

He is unbalanced in the sense he will either die as soon as the game starts or he will kill entire armies. Depends on army and the list.

He also doesn't have EW, so a Force Weapon can knock him out of the fight.

And Bone Swords, and bile's Rod of Torment, and a few others.

Mephiston isn't unbalanced, he's just a gamble; rock-hard against somethings, super squishy against others.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say if a unit is a gamble then it isn't balanced.

He also doesn't have EW, so a Force Weapon can knock him out of the fight.

This statement is just silly.

I can't think of anybody that has a Force Weapon that can strike before Mephiston or can at least survive all his attacks, not to mention reliably wound him at his T6. Oh and let's not forget his Deny the Witch, which will most likely get a +2 on the roll because of his ridiculous Psyker level.

I'm not saying Mephiston has no faults, he's a beat stick with the price tag of a Land Raider, but that's what he is, a beat stick. So if you're counting on Force Weapons to "knock him out of the fight", you're doing it wrong.

Unit of Tyranid Warriors with double bone swords can.  Not a force weapon, but same principle.  Also, given the new rules for 6th, you can't single out characters to hit unless you're in a challenge or no one else is in b2b, so it's much more likely now.  Of course, now Meph gets a (typically) 4+ Deny the Witch save.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say if a unit is a gamble then it isn't balanced.

Can't really agree with that either.  All units are a gamble.  No one unit is good enough at everything to DO everything; thats why they need other units to support them.  If everything was perfectly balanced individually, the game would just be a series of 4+ dice rolls to see who won.

Can't really agree with that either.  All units are a gamble.  No one unit is good enough at everything to DO everything; thats why they need other units to support them.  If everything was perfectly balanced individually, the game would just be a series of 4+ dice rolls to see who won.

Sorry I simply had to say your logic is faultless.

Plus it gives me a reason to post the pic   

In all seriousness a 4+ constant game would be rather boring. 

He also doesn't have EW, so a Force Weapon can knock him out of the fight.

This statement is just silly.

I can't think of anybody that has a Force Weapon that can strike before Mephiston or can at least survive all his attacks, not to mention reliably wound him at his T6. Oh and let's not forget his Deny the Witch, which will most likely get a +2 on the roll because of his ridiculous Psyker level.

I'm not saying Mephiston has no faults, he's a beat stick with the price tag of a Land Raider, but that's what he is, a beat stick. So if you're counting on Force Weapons to "knock him out of the fight", you're doing it wrong.

You cannot DtW force weapon activation, and GKs with Halberds will hit Mephiston first(although he gets his armor)

more likely, Mephiston eats a bunch of GKs, and then takes a Daemonhammer to the face when then activates.

He also doesn't have EW, so a Force Weapon can knock him out of the fight.

This statement is just silly.

I can't think of anybody that has a Force Weapon that can strike before Mephiston or can at least survive all his attacks, not to mention reliably wound him at his T6. Oh and let's not forget his Deny the Witch, which will most likely get a +2 on the roll because of his ridiculous Psyker level.

I'm not saying Mephiston has no faults, he's a beat stick with the price tag of a Land Raider, but that's what he is, a beat stick. So if you're counting on Force Weapons to "knock him out of the fight", you're doing it wrong.

You cannot DtW force weapon activation, and GKs with Halberds will hit Mephiston first(although he gets his armor)

more likely, Mephiston eats a bunch of GKs, and then takes a Daemonhammer to the face when then activates.

Mephiston is I7. Though Termies would get their saves as well.

Actually, I'm pretty sure a base-standard unit of TH/SS terminators win combat with Meph, and are cheaper too boot.

O'yeah, they pwned Mephiston back when he actually ignored their armor save.

Of course TH/SS terminators pound just about anything.

Yeah, I hate TH/SS termies why of why Mat Ward decided in the last Codex that they needed to change SS from a 4++ to a 3++ is beyond me. One game I'd literally killed everything in the opposing army bar a squad of TH/SS termies. I shot everything I had at it (still had most of my Dark Eldar left on the field) and killed one guy! Almost 1500pts of shooting at a 200pts unit and I got one kill!

The old Storm Shields DID need a boost, in all honesty.  The old SS rules were a 4++ in close combat ONLY, so assault terminators could safely be ignored for most of the game, and then melta/plasma/lascannoned to death in a round before they charged (remember, 5+ cover was the standard, and massed heavy weapons and/or AP2 was the norm).  Still, I agree that 3++ was a little too much in the other direction.  Unfortunately, you've got lots of 3++ (or better) saves floating around now, so they need it to stay competitive.

I am 13-13 for killing Meph in games facing him.  Four times he died to Mind Shackle scarabs and snuffing himself with his own force weapon (5th edition for 3 of those), Twice to GK Tech Marine grenade platforms.  Coteaz ate him once.  Tyranid Bonelash Warriors have eaten him the other four times.  Granted, I run stuff others don't normally take (HtH Warriors FTW!), but still, he is not the powerhouse he was in 5th and even then he was rarely worth the Land Raider in points he cost.  A basic Librarian with some options that can bunker with some duders is a much better deal.

ps- The Coward Shields are stupid and have broken the game for the most part, because they had to ramp up shooting to compensate, which means anything without said shields is boned.  It should have been 4++ or 3++ in close combat only, but every rule bandaid they have applied in the last couple years has been to make Terms more attractive, so I am not suprised.

Agreed.  I'd have been fine with a simple 4++ save.  It took the combined firepower of my 12 birder army to ensure the destruction of 5 SS terminators in a single round of shooting in one game.  Maybe  it's just me, but 200 points being able to absorb 1600 points of shooting is a little off-putting.

But why are you using AP2 weapons to kill TH/SS Terminators in the first place?

Its far more efficient to use massed small arms to kill them.

Use AP2 weapons to kill termies without 3++, and use small arms to kill those with 3++


Its a simple cost effectivness ratio and sending the right unit at the right target.

Yeah, if you're shooting at them with small arms fire they're still t4 models relying on their 2+ armour. They're gonna roll 1's eventually and they're storm shield wouldn't have been put to use.

I shot an entire army's worth of Dark Eldar at a unit of 5 of the buggers and the guy failed 1 armour save. Sure that's not going by the law of averages but then whos' game ever does?

2+/3++ is ridiculously survivable and in the old edition (5th) you'd have more chance of blowing up a vehicle than a chap in armour. The major problem I have with this is that it's riddled right throughout the Marine codices which is what the greatest number of players have. I'd have been fine with the 4++, on point the wrong way make things truly ludicrous. I know people can point out that my Dark Eldar can get a 2++, I'll admit it's awesome, but it's pricey, can only be taken on HQs and if it's failed once it's lost forever and generally what is hitting the guy with it will probably have the Strength to ID him too.

I get that Terminators are supposed to be tough, in general marines are too but when you can walk a squad of 5 across the battlefield and not worry about what is flung at you, that's a step too far in my book.

That being said, I've also faced the Dark Eldar army with 9 venoms.  108 poison shots a round makes any kind of non-vehicle unit untenable. 

40k is uncompromisingly about excess, so as long as I can be just as silly as the guy with the 10 infiltrating 2+/3++ buggers, I'll be fine.

And I'll counter that its silly to watch a squad of the Emperor's finest, wearing the most impenetrable armor in the universe, get cut down by a bunch of guys using glorified laser pointers.

Terminators were WAY too easy to kill in 5th, which is why I'm glad for the changes to Power Weapons.

They were also way too easy to kill in 4th. Nobody used assault terminators with SS because SS sucked.


Also, the Vanilla marine codex has only one viable assault unit. TH/SS terminators. They need that 3++ to be viable.

You will notice that other marine codices pay more for their TH/SS terminators, this is because they get more use out of them. Blood Angels can get FnP on them, Space Wolves can hide them in all their units.

BTs are the only ones currently getting a free ride, but thats because they are an old codex. And then you arn't hearing people cry "Cheese, BT assault terminators!"

GKs, you will notice, did NOT get Storm Shields. Ok, we have ONE rediclously expensive Special character that has one. and a T3 one wound henchmen that dies to bolter fire.

Yeah, he dies to bolter fire, but him and his 9 buddies cost 150 points, and can be scoring.  Amazingly enough, I still didn't hear cheese cries when I fielded two full units of them.

Besides, 6th took alot of the wind out of the GK sails (I'm one of the few people who never found them OP to begin with); new meta still hasn't decided what to do with the boys in grey.

I shot an entire army's worth of Dark Eldar at a unit of 5 of the buggers and the guy failed 1 armour save. Sure that's not going by the law of averages but then whos' game ever does?

2+/3++ is ridiculously survivable and in the old edition (5th) you'd have more chance of blowing up a vehicle than a chap in armour. The major problem I have with this is that it's riddled right throughout the Marine codices which is what the greatest number of players have. I'd have been fine with the 4++, on point the wrong way make things truly ludicrous. I know people can point out that my Dark Eldar can get a 2++, I'll admit it's awesome, but it's pricey, can only be taken on HQs and if it's failed once it's lost forever and generally what is hitting the guy with it will probably have the Strength to ID him too.

I get that Terminators are supposed to be tough, in general marines are too but when you can walk a squad of 5 across the battlefield and not worry about what is flung at you, that's a step too far in my book.

That happens. I have a Logan Wing Army and 1 Baal Predator killed a 5 man squad in 1 turn of shooting. I've also killed a 5 man squad of TH/SS Termies by shooting at them with pistols and charging in with an assault squad.

2+ is great, but I guarantee you, if you throw enough dice at someone they'll roll 1's eventually. This is coming from a guy that has a Full Terminator list and plays against TH/SS Terminators using other armies quite often.