Air combat?

So I have been wondering, what flyers are like against each other. I have only used my jets against dark eldar skimmers but had anyone had to fight the enemies air force with your own? And how did you get on?
I wonder which army is the best for their air combat, Dark Eldar and Tau come to minf but Orks and Eldar must be pretty high up there also. I like running 1 Blitza Bomma, 1 Burna Bomma, 2 Dakkajets and 2 5 man deffkopta units with the whole shebang. Take grotsnick and you have invulnerable saves for those Deffkoptas!

So I have been wondering, what flyers are like against each other. I have only used my jets against dark eldar skimmers but had anyone had to fight the enemies air force with your own? And how did you get on?
I wonder which army is the best for their air combat, Dark Eldar and Tau come to minf but Orks and Eldar must be pretty high up there also. I like running 1 Blitza Bomma, 1 Burna Bomma, 2 Dakkajets and 2 5 man deffkopta units with the whole shebang. Take grotsnick and you have invulnerable saves for those Deffkoptas!

Necrons and Space Marines have good fliers.

I predict fliers are going to have a brief golden age at the start of this edition (especially the Necron ones, the lists that took several apparently did very well at the Throne of Skulls) before the Chaos codex hits and then their new dragon starts tearing 'em all a new one. Until everything levels out and everyone's aerial and anti-aerial capabilities are about even, flier-heavy armies will do well until significant numbers take up Chaos, possibly as allies.

I imagine that a future errata to many codices will add skyfire as an option to most missile launchers - the reference in the back the BRB shows them as a missile type under the missile launcher entry. But honestly, I have found that taking out fliers isn't incredibly hard with focused fire.

Tyranids are going to have a tough time with them I imagine.

True, but recently in an open day the design team suggested that they were going to keep skyfire fairly limited for the time being to ensure that the fliers leave the shelves - I'm guessing it'll either come about in an FAQ after several months or might only happen when the actual codexes get their respective updates.

Tyranids have 2 things that deal with flyers well, but both options have some issues.

the first is Hive Guard.  Of course, these guys are pretty solid against any light/medium vehicle, but what makes them good against flyers is the fact that their weapons ignore the Jink cover save.  The downside is that they are only 24 inch range and have to deal with the snap fire rule (BS1).  The fact that they are multiple shots help mitigate that some.

The second is the sweep attack a Flyrant can make.  Correct me if I'm wrong (still applying the rules to the game ), but a Flyrant can combine it's fly-over sweep attack with a Slam attack, which equates with a Strength 10 AP2 close-combat hit (so again, no Jink save).  The down side is actually managing to maneuver so that you can fly over another flyer is a true pain in the c**k.

However, the new forgeworld Flyer book comes out tomorrow.  I think THERE is where we'lls tart to see some flyer-balance.

My guess is that Flakk missiles will be an option for missile launcher armed models at a nominal point cost, or it might replace one of the missile types in that missile launcher(swap either Frag or Krak missiles for Flakk missiles for 5 points a launcher)

For all who don't play IG i think that flyers may be a nuisance, even later in the edition (the idea of having to take sky fire weapons and upgrades in the off chance that there may be fliers) but for a hydra flak tank fan such as myself, i always loved them, i have had absolutely no problems with those flies. I think that many people will gravitate away from the flyer cheese for more favorable units (like in my necron army i usually take Varguard Obyron over the doom scythe as he is extremely effective in challenges and can race around the board. The doom scythe is good but you will only get usually 2 rounds of half decent shooting)

I imagine that in the future, the whirlwind will be equipped with skyfire missiles.

But the nice thing for *most* fliers is that they have low armor values, meaning, once you hit, often doing damage is the easy part. Twin-linked works well against fliers - twin linked assault cannons are great, and twin linked heavy bolters do the trick as well.

And I don't really see how fliers are cheese. Hard to hit, easy to pen.

Hard to hit, easy to pen.

Not true for all of 'em however. Several fliers out there can boast armour 12 or better (doesn't sound too great until you remember that most armies can boast maximum S7 on their skyfire unless they go for the crappy Icarus Lascannon over the Quad Gun) in addition to individual special rules that make 'em harder to put down, like Psychic Pilots or Living Metal, on top of jink saves.

Hard to hit, easy to pen.

Not true for all of 'em however. Several fliers out there can boast armour 12 or better (doesn't sound too great until you remember that most armies can boast maximum S7 on their skyfire unless they go for the crappy Icarus Lascannon over the Quad Gun) in addition to individual special rules that make 'em harder to put down, like Psychic Pilots or Living Metal, on top of jink saves.

You are probably right... I haven't played enough games with fliers to accurately judge the cheese level I guess. I played against 'crons though and their 2 fliers were pretty damaging. He wasn't too happy when my multi melta rolled a 6 and took it out of the sky though!

Heh, good one! I've not played many games with or against them either, but the implications of their existence are quickly becoming apparent.

Honestly, with the speed of fliers these days, they should probably make the standard table size 6x6 instead of 4x6. Things move across the board to quickly.

I don't think assault armies need to be taking another hit at this point... 8x4, perhaps.

I don't think assault armies need to be taking another hit at this point... 8x4, perhaps.

Good point!

but for a hydra flak tank fan such as myself, i always loved them,

Wow, you still run hydras?  Those things took a massive nerf with the new rules.  Sure, they're decent for knocking down flyers.  But now they're crap against anything else (including skimmers) since they hit anything thats NOT a flyer at BS1, and twin linked only goes so far.  Add in the fragility of a Chimera hull, and you'll get WAY more utility AND survivability from an Aegis defense line with a Quad gun.

Anyone know who has argueably the best flyer? Orks got the most cost efficient, seen as theirs do their job well and cost less than (much less?) than a 10 man tactical squad. Space marines might have the toughest, see as p.o.m.s and armour 12 stormravens amd some nice abilities with the stormtalons. However, they are still expensive for a risky choice. Dakka lads! Dakka!
Necrons have good ones but I found them easy to crack when I hit. Lootas I love you.
Dark eldar have a cool one, with force fields, lances, and aerial ace and it's high speed, it can put most things to dust. Very expensive though weighing in about roughly 235 points. Plus it's extremely fragile.
Tau have good ones as they are cheaper than other armies (due to the fact that they were skimmers and no-one heard of flyers.) and they had a lot of firepower. They are also more durable than most, but a good melta shot can bust it up.
Eldar? Do they even have flyers?
Chaos? Good for their daemon prince, but that's it. And he is not cheap at all.
Imperial gaurd are very good for their points. High strenght weapons, quite tough, and they are cheap. I think their base is cheaper than a fully kitted Dakkajet. =-O
Tyranids have flying hive tyrants and harpies, so they only lack in shooting down flyers. But if they got a fling carnifex than they're set.

Only GKs and BAs have Stormravens though, unless taken as allies.

The Stormtalon is ok for its points, although it does highlight how stupidly underpriced Valks are.

Stormtalon naked: 130 points

Vendetta naked: 130 points


Stormtalon: TL-assault Cannon, TL-heavy bolter, AV11

Vendetta: 3 TL-lascannons, AV12

WTF?

Dafuq? Really? Actually, normal infantry with lasguns are 5 points with -1 Ws, T and attacks and +1 Bs, I, Ld, Save for 1 less point. That and the fact that the order first rank second rank give a rapid fire of 30 shots!

Yeah, of course its less rediclous then Grey Hunters compared to Tac marines.

Lets see. Grey Hunters,

CCW for +1A,

Counter Attack.

Acute Senses,

2nd Special Weapon is free when there are 10 guys,

No Heavy Weapons,


And we'll make them cheaper by one point. WTF? WTF!!!

What? Thats not fair? Ok, lets make them Ld8 with no sergeant options.

THATS CRAZY!!!!!!!!

Yeah, Marines get a lot of troops love nowadays. Fortunately... *Licks chainsword*... They're about to learn what ten thousand years of betrayal, envy and hatred does to a man...


Heheheheh....


On a slightly non-sinister note, tomorrow I've got a casual tourney against a bunch of clay-'eads. I'll let you know if many fliers make an appearance and if a single quad-gun can hold 'em off.

Just wait for it folks.  Imperial Armor Aeronautica just came out.  Should have my copy by wednesday.  THEN we'll see what flyers can do (and hopefully how to stop them).

Well, around a third of all the armies present boasted a flier or two (with 75% of the armies being Marines of some description, so they were Storm Ravens/Talons most of the time). In 3 games I only encountered a single Storm Raven, which lost a hull point to my Quad Gun before destroying said turret. My Predator then took a couple of pot-shots at it 2 turns later and blew out of the sky with an 'explodes' result. Actually, my P. Annihilator proved to be one of my most solid units throughout the day, as nobody really invested in much long-range anti-tank. Though the Quad Gun failed to have much of an impact against the SR, it's still a really solid upgrade, it can handle most light-medium vehicles and reliably force MEQ opponents to take 4 saves every turn, which quickly added up.

Actually, I did pretty well overall, coming joint 4th out of 24 (though due to the way the scoring worked, with later games being worth more points, the guy who was joint with me won two lost one whereas I won two drew one, which was a little annoying) and I also managed to come joint 2nd in painting, which was a huge surprise as I've never really done well in that respect.

Congrats! 
Took a flyer to a local friendly to test them out.
2 Stormtalons vs. 2 Dakkajets.
Dakkajets did quite well. I focused on taking down one talon at a time. Fortuneatly, I got enough 5/6s to nock one out of the sky. The second took down a good hull points, leaving me with one Hp left and 1 supa shoota on that dakkajet. Took a bold move and called a Waagh. Damaged plane managed to glance the stormtalon to death and it hit a few guys in combat... Other jet went around blasting apart skimmer squadrons as I had nothing left to shoot at.
So the stormtalon did quite well, jusr a few good roles put it out of the sky.
A sickner was my shock attack gun got sky fire from an objective. Oh goody