SM Vs. Tyrant. Which and Why?

Good afternoon all

I have been away from the Stronghold for a while, and indeed from Ogres in general. I came back to them just before the new book, and have really had my love for the fatties rekindled in all honesty. They aren't an army I have ever had much luck gaming with, and would quite like to put together a fairly competitive list.

In this vein, I notice that a fairly high number of people tend to gravitate towards using a Slaughtermaster (Normally with the "Glittering Scales, Fencers Blades, Crown of Command, Level 4 Wizard" kit out) these days, even over a Tyrant. Why is this? Is there one simple reason, or many? I really would love to hear your opinions on this

JJ

Well, there are many reasons indeed. But it mostly comes down to it that the Slaughtermaster is a much better 'package' deal then the Tyrant is.

The Tyrant is a better fighter, in fact he is pretty brutal if kitted out right. Although our army does not lack punch in any way, so on this he is not really a must have.

Second, the Tyrant brings LD 9 to the board, but this can also be accomplished with a Slaughtermaster in a unit of Guts with the banner of discipline.


The Slaughtermaster brings a lot more to the table. He takes care of magic defense and offense (lvl 4 wizard), he is also a pretty good fighter, can be kitted out to be almost as hard to wound as a Tyrant and when he uses the lore of Gutmagic he can easily heal his wounds back up.

So by not bringing a Tyrant do not give in a lot but you do gain a lot for fairly the same price. If you bring a Tyrant you still need to buy 1 or 2 casters to go alongside him.

D...

I think the biggest thing is that you no longer need the Tyrant to get access to a SM. Considering you can make the SM LD9 anyway and teh new goodies we have I find it much harder to justify taking both so tend to stick with the SM, or in my new army I actually take two SMs. The SM is no slouch in combat and I've not met anything that Ironguts have failed to munch into a fine mist yet.

The magic the SM brings to the table is in general better than the extra combat power the Tyrant brings. Both Death and Maw have enough usefull spells to justify taking a lvl 4 caster, and the +4 to dispel is very helpful.

At its very core, the reason why people take an SM so frequently is because he's the army's only level 4 wizard, asides from Skrag (who seems to have taken a real hit in popularity since the last book, probably because Gorgers aren't that much to write home about anymore) and the high cost of both characters makes them mutually exclusive a lot of the time. Considering how powerful magic is nowadays, few people are willing to take the risk posed by having only a couple of level 2s when everyone else is using a level 4 who can stomp said level 2s with his bonuses to casting and dispelling.

Of course, the SM's case is also helped greatly by the fact that he's pretty much the toughest non-SC lord in the game whilst being reasonably useful at actually dishing out damage in combat. His Ld deficiency is easily rectified by the Standard of Discipline and and a BSB. All of the lores he has access to are solid depending on what you want him to do (sniping, protecting against shooting and buffing, mainly) and whilst LotGM may look a little lacklustre on paper compared to some other lores (compare the likes of Mindrazor and the Life toughness buff to Bullgorger and Toothcracker, for example), the fact that most of the army already boasts solid stats makes it pretty good in practice, especially considering the awesome lore attribute.

Personally I still love the Tyrant, largely due to how oldskool he is (DAMN I miss the Tenderiser), but his Ld and combat potential are not to be overlooked. The current popular build, which I will try to shamelessly claim I pioneered, consists of something along the lines of: Sword of Striking, Greedyfist and Giantbreaker with other bits to taste (I quite like the Enchanted Shield and Other Trickster's Shard, meself), which allows him to hit and wound most stuff in the game on 2s - not to be sniffed at.

The biggest issue is that its hard to justify a Tyrant and a SM at the typical point values people play at.

Especially since our units are really expensive. Not taking a Tyrant means I have another 6 bodies in my army.

SMs also arn't too shabby in combat. The biggest reason is they can regenerate their wounds and also have decent armor/ward saves. SMs can also take a GW if they want to.

I've always been a fan of devensive lord builds. If you can take more damage then the enemy and outlast them then you win. The sad truth is, the Tyrant is not the scariest melee lord out there.

Vampires, Bloodthirsters, Doombulls, Dreadlords, and even Brett Lords are all superior fighters to the Tyrant, have access to better gear, and can fairly easily kill a Tyrant before he even swings.

A slaughtermaster on the other hand can be kitted up with comperable saves to a Tyrant, with only slightly less killing power, while also being a Lvl4 wizard that can heal lost wounds. Thanks to Gutmagic, a Slaughtermaster can regain lost wounds. Very few models in the game can do this. And when you consider that this guy may also have 4+/4+ saves in addition to being T5 it makes for a very durable character that many models will flail themselves against to no avail.

While the general consensus is that a SM trumps a Tyrant, I agree myself that is why I play a SM general. There has to be mentioned that there has been some high ranked tournament lists running Tyrant as general, there's even some ETC lists including the faithful Tyrant. Sometimes alone sometimes along with a lvl3 SM.

I printed out some of those lists at home, I can paste them here when I get back.

They might be heavily influenced by playing with the ETC comp, but it's becoming increasingly popular, so no reason to discard it when building lists and discussing tactics.

Okay, thanks for all the fantastic insights. See, my conflict is between the competitive edge of having a Slaughtermaster, and the fluff of having a Tyrant.

I don't suppose anyone has or knows of a list that uses both?

JJ

In this years ETC there are only three countries that brought a Tyrant.  But it's worth mentoning that not every country brought Ogre Kingdoms.

Scotland, Belarus and Denmark. If I get a few minutes off work I'll post them

Team Scotland

Tyrant, general, great weapon, glittering scales, talisman of preservation, other trickster shard

Bruiser, BSB, heavy armour, great weapon, dragonhelm, crown of command
Firebelly, lvl 2, great weapon, scroll of shielding, ruby ring
Firebelly, lvl 2, extra hand weapon, dispel scroll, obsidian trinket, potion of speed

8 Ironguts, FC, Banner of swiftness, LOG
8 Ogres, FC, LOG, ironfists
3 single Sabretusks
4 Mournfang, musician, heavy armour, ironfist
2 Mournfang, musician, heavy armour, ironfist
3 Leadbelchers, musician
Ironblaster

Team Belarus

Tyrant, general, great weapon, heavy armour, talisman of preservation, ironcurse icon
Tyrant, Heavy armour, enchanted shield, greedy fist, arabyan carpet, warrior bane
Bruiser, BSB, Runemaw
Butcher, lvl2, Great Maw, dispel scroll
Firebelly, lvl1, tormentor sword, potion of speed
Firebelly, lvl 1
13 Ogres, FC, ironfists
3 Ogres, musician, additional hand weapons
10 gnoblars
10 gnoblars
10 gnoblars
4 Mournfang Cavalry, standard (dragonhide), musician, ironfist, heavy armour
3 single sabretusks
Ironblaster

Team Denmark

Tyrant, general, light armour, charmed shield, sworf of anti-heroes, talisman of preservation
Slaughtermaster, lvl 3, fencers blades, glittering scales
Bruiser, bsb, great weapon, light armour, runemaw
Butcher, lvl 1, great maw, great weapon, crown of command, dragonbane gem
Firebelly, lvl 1, additional hand weapon, dispel scroll, potion of speed

9 Ironguts, FC, LOG, discipline
40 gnoblars, musician, champion
11 gnoblars
10 gnoblars
3 single sabretusks
2 mournfang cavalry, iron fist, heavy armour
2 mournfang cavalry, iron fist, heavy armour
Gorger
Gorger
Ironblaster

That last list is perfect! It is exactly what I was looking for!

JJ

Glad to help

When I get more used to my Ogres, I plan on playing a Tyrant led build. Just gotta grow the balls first 

Would you be running that with Butchers, or still be trying to fit a Slaughtermaster in?

JJ

Tyrant + 2 FB and a BSB has been my setup for tournament play since I ironed out my list.  I am in the minority, however.  Search the forum to find many threads on this topic discussing the pros and cons in great detail.

Yeah, I think Tyrants are a good choice in a Firebelly-centric list that forgoes other magic.

Tyrant and a couple Lvl2 firebellies.

I'd go for double firebelly as well I suppose, might consider a Butcher for the survivability that the Maw can give you (but I guess with a level 2 there isn't that big of a chance to get regen)

Actually, its a decent chance to get Trollguts. 44% to be exact. because any roll of a 5 or a double will give you Trollguts.

I'm thinking about bringing the following list to a tournament if I can borrow all the minis. I think it can be a fun first time playing with the Ogres and I expect to hit top5 at least. I think it can be really fun to play with and packs a punch with most of my characters able to run around on there own if needed and cause all sorts of shenanigans.

2500p
Tyrant: General, GW, La, Trickster's Helm, Talisman of Preservation.
Tyrant: GW, Armour of Destiny, The Other Trickster's Shard, Deathcheater.
BSB: GW, Rock Eye, Armour of Silvered Steel.
Firebelly lvl2: xhw, Dispel Scroll, Potion of Speed.
Firebelly lvl2: xhw, Ruby Ring.

6 IG: FC(Standard of Discipline), look-out Gnoblar.
9 Ogres: IF, FC, look-out Gnoblar. (or 2 units of 4 IG I'm not sure yet)
5 Maneaters: Swiftstride, ItP, 4 xhw, 1 GW, Musician, Banner(Banner of Swiftness).
4 Mournfangs: Musician, Banner(Gleaming Pendant)
1 Dog.
1 Dog.

One more thing for the Tyrant : he doesn't kill himself or his fellow Ogres by trying to "bring something more to the table". And he doesn't spend 200 points for useless magic levels against dwarves

I'm toying with a Tyrant lately, up to a point that I feel that we don't need magic that much.

During a Blood in the Badlands Campaign I once won a Storm of Magic game with an army led by a Tyrant and only a level 2 firebelly and a Fmir Balefiend. My opponent was Dark Elves and had like 2 supreme sorceresses, and 2 other casters I think. I also think he had 250 points more than me too... funny thing was, when I told him what I was bringing, he was kind of snickering and expecting to walk all over me. He wasn't laughing after the game. 

So, yeah, sometimes I think we overvalue magic (myself included). You should be fine with a Tyrant or a Slaughtermaster.

I take a tyrant every single time, and I occasionally stuff a SM into a little lvl3 spot if I have the points. The way I figure it really is that I am going to lost the magic phase, and that is that. I just don't have the voodoo to make folks run crying to their mommies after the winds of magic are rolled. That said, I feel like my points are better spent on clubs and meat than on wizards.

Granted, we need magic defense. I never leave home without a wizard, one with some kind of scroll. But really I don't think I want to pay for a lvl4 wizard whose spells are less important than his fists and magic defense.

So I take my licks in the magic phase (sometimes a little disastrously), and close into CC as soon as possible. It just feels Ogrey to me to lead with a tyrant, and have more meat than magic.

I like having my cake and eating it so I bring a Tyrant and a level 4 Slaughtermaster at 2500 points. That doesn't leave me all the toys people seem to like on a Slaughtermaster, but I find my Slaughtermaster does just fine with a dispel scroll and a dragonbane gem. It is very rare he gets killed. My Tyrant is a little heavier loaded out with an enchanted shield, a greedy fist and a sword of striking, but still pretty light compared to what others load their tyrants up with. I trust in Trollguts to give me a save! Might seem a bit light on the saves department, but between them 10 T5 wounds is pretty hard to take away before they grind your bones to make their bread...

Wat I think people r over looking is wen they say our attribute makes a wizard better wen a tyrant can achieve that for 5 more points using the. Gut maw magic armor granted it's highly situational, being only in a challenge but I think that that's all you want is push those characters back or crush them if they can't. Its still very good I think a good line-up with gut maw would be greedy fist and sword of striking.