Psyocculem vs Fly-rant: Rule question/opinion?

okay, here's another one of those funny "but what about" scenarios that 6th is sparking all over.

Grey Knight Terminator squad is firing at a Winged Hive Tyrant who is swooping.  Rules say you may only fire snap shots at flyers.  Snap shots are defined as shooting attacks made at BS1.  The Terminator squad has an attached Inquisitor with a Psyocculem.  Psyocculems state that when firing at a Psyker or unit containing a Psyker, then all shots are made at BS10.  Codex rules trump basic rule book rules, so a codex rule which replaces the value of a state situationally trumps a basic rule which replaces a stat situationally.  Opinions?

This is how it was ruled at my local store anyway by a group of third-party players.  Needless to say, the Tyrant went down in a hail of Psybolts that hit on a rerollable 2+  .  Of course, the same thing then happened to my Storm Raven in the next mirror match 

Psyocculum makes you BS10, Snap Fire reduces you to BS1.

I believe its a section early on talking about stacking modifiers. Put modifiers on, then change to set values.

I'm inclined to agree with grey templar, although I can't back that up with any actual evidence, since I dont have a rulebook handy.

It's kind of like Fear vs Fencer's Blades, isn't it?

I don't think it's a case of modifiers then set values as both change to set values. Options are:

- Codex over-rules rulebook (so BS10)
- Both happen simultaneously so the person whose turn it is decides (so BS10)
- Rule conflict, so apply MIR (so roll off)

Overall I think it's a fairly reasonable interpretation that they're BS10.

Fear vs. fencers blades is quite clear I thought - you are WS 1, no?

... My magic item says I'm WS10.

You're saying:
WS6 -> WS10 (FB) -> WS1 (fear)

I'm saying:
WS6 -> WS1 (fear) -> WS10 (FB)

Who's right? Unless there's some precedent I'm not aware of, there's no rule that tells you which is right. Player whose turn it is decides? MIR?

Well, I don't have a rulebook handy, but my interpretation is as follows:

Fear = I am too busy shitting my pants to fight effectively and the fancy swords I have in my hand are not going to change that.

Same with the snap fire thing. The intent is obviously that no matter how good a shot you are, snap fire is always resolved at BS1. So a BS6 guy like Sgt. Telion still hits on 6's like everyone else.

I believe I read something in the rulebook that there is a special rule (maybe it's for a specific unit?) that allows you to use your normal BS during snapfire. I forget though.

Besides, it's not like:

A) Grey Knights need beefing up
B) Tyranids need to be hit even harder with the nerf bat.

Well, you could just as well argue that it's a good job you have the magic sword that can fight by itself while you cower behind it! (I'm sure there's a movie with something like this happening? I'm drawing a blank...)

Either way, I don't really have a horse in this race, I'm just pointing out the counter-argument. I don't think this has been resolved in any definitive way in either system.

Yeah, maybe you're right. I just assumed that's the way it works I guess.

It's always the assumptions and interpretations that get us into trouble.  I'll pull up specific plage quotes later, it anyone's interested. 
We'll see how this works out.  I expect a second round of FAQs before too much longer anyways, and/or an extensive FAQ for the book.

The rule is intended to make the unit BS1. A "work around" to make the unit BS10 is not how the rules work. Either way the unit would be taking "Snap Shots" at the flying model. These shots are to be considered a quick firing of the weapon at a fast moving target. "Snap Shots" are taken at BS1.

Uh, thank you for your opinion, but you didn't offer any kind of rules justification addressing the issue I pointed out.  Rules As Written, concerning the precedents I pointed out, are very clear.  I was asking if anyone knew of any actual rules that would clarify or contradict this, not "it was intended" or "to be considered." 

Besides, GW "intended" 40k6th to be a fun, fluffy, exciting game with cinematic elements, but gave us the most silly, easily abused, completely unbalanced (and yet with surprisingly concise rules) system yet.  If this combination seems unbalanced to you, then I would "assume" it is completely legal, since that would be keeping in theme with the rest of the rule-set.

Completely unbalanced?

What u smoke Nihmwit? Me want!


Seriously, 6th has struck the best balance out of the last 2 editions so far. Nids got dragged out of the depths of suckage, vehicles got nerfed down to just about right, and shooting units are now more viable(without dominating the game)

Granted, I've only gotten a chance to play 3 or 4 games, but I've watched close to a dozen. 

Balance doesn't enter anywhere into the 6th edition equation unless the two player's agree before hand to play nice and use the kiddie-gloves.

I'll ignore the matter of double Force Org and Allies, since those should be self-evident.  Sure, they allow for some great, cinematic and iconic armies if you agree to play by fluff.  By game mechanics, they... well.  I said I wouldn't go into it.

The new wound allocation system takes a good two-thirds of my hate, especially in close-combat.  If you don't abuse the f*** out of it, then close combat is effectively worthless.  Watching the single Wolf-Guard terminator literally tank an entire Boyz squad worth of attacks just wasn't fun.  To make matters worse, the Nob got killed early, so that little fracas turned into a pointless grind for the next 4 turns with nothing happening.  Or my own experience with combats ending in mutual, grinding, annihilation.  90% of the time, close combat's only purpose is to tarpit something and take it out of the game.  Fearless is too easily gotten in 40k to make losing have no penalty.

Vehicle changes don't really bother me, although I have a MAJOR gripe with them not being denial units.  That one makes NO sense.  You're definitely not in control of an objective if there's a friggin tank parked on top of it shooting at you.

Challenges are just ridiculous.  The differences between the characters of different races just doesn't make it feasible.

Flyers, at the moment, are entirely too powerful.  Simply put, there are too few things which are actual counters to Flyers.  Plus the availability of flyers needs to be evened out.  I know this is something that's being addressed, but when I can put 10 imperial guard flyers out there with minimal effort (actually, I have 12) and table two opponents with minimal effort, tactics, or losses... Well, that wasn't real fun on either side of the table.

Sorry Grey, but Tyrannids didn't get dragged out of the muck.  Trust me, I'm a LONG-time 'Nid player (tournament and casual).  FMCs are nifty, but again just don't stand up to other Flyers, and are more vulnerable to ground-fire than Flyers.  Psychic spam certainly is interesting, but not game changing.  And Tervigon-Gant spamming does nothing more than clog the table.

I'm sure I'll get used to it eventually, and I'm really hoping the TOs out there can organize it somewhat.  But after losing a SECOND army to GW's New-Rules-bat, I'm more than a little pessimistic about this system.

It used to be that a fluff army, played by a competent player, stood almost as good a chance of winning as a tournament list.  Now, a casual or fluff list, even if played by one of the best players, will stand absolutely no chance against a tournament, wound-abuse list.

PS, shooting units were ALWAYS viable 

I'd craft a longer answer, agreeing and disagreeing with some bits, but that'd drag this too far OT. What I will say is this - waiting until after the first couple of codexes are released should give a much better picture of what GW have tried to acheive with 6th along with whatever balance they've tried to strike between various elements of the game.

I'd craft a longer answer, agreeing and disagreeing with some bits, but that'd drag this too far OT. What I will say is this - waiting until after the first couple of codexes are released should give a much better picture of what GW have tried to acheive with 6th along with whatever balance they've tried to strike between various elements of the game.

Agree 100%

honestly, I agree too.  Still doesn't make my points invalid or change the way I feel about 6th right now.  Hence the break from 40k to enjoy more fantasy.  I'll jump back in once the FAQs have matured, the rules have stabilized, and see if the new meta hasn't wrecked the game.

Its been established with whip rules FAQ. Just replace Initative with BS.

Q: If a model with whip coils is in base contact with a model with an
Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. an Eldar Banshee Mask
etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified? (p44)
A: As a ‘set value modifier’ the Whip Coils effect is applied
after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set
value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start
of each Fight sub-phase.

In the case of BS, Snap Fire is a base value modifier, the psyocculum is the wargear.

The Space Wolves Chooser of the Slain is FAQ'd to not affect snap shots, they still fire at BS1. Not sure if that would extend to the Grey Knights ability you were talking about but its something to go off...

actually the second round of FAQs addressed the issue.  So, case closed