Archive - Ogre Kingdoms Vs Vampire Counts

Summary from the old forum:

- Zuggut the FAT


- ikim


- puggimer


- rampagingpenguins


- justanotherogre

can you use the spangleshard against the hand of dust spell?

how do yhetees hit on 3s? they have ws 3 too.

We do 1000-1500 pt gaes right now.  Most Gw gaems and tourny level games.  


I have found that if or when the Necro is out by himself running around go after him as fats as you can.  Boy does a necro run and hide or joins a unit when he sees a Buthcer or Bruiser comig after him.  

I have found taken dispel scrolls helps a lot earlt to stop the big spells if they have them.  That will gove you time to hunt him.  If the GREAT CURSE Of years does go off you do have a little time before it does havic on your forces.  Once again it's about speed for you.  

If the wennie necro does join a unit put aatcks on him and get rid of it.  



My last battle by the thrid turn I had taken out the necro and my life seemed a little less stressful.  Especially when the GREAT CIURSE OF YEARS was not trying to be cast every tiurn.

Thanks  THEFAN

Having not fought against VC with Ogres, I'm probably not in much of a position to comment, but allow me to indulge in a bit of Theoryhammer and note down a few ideas.

I expect we'd have a good time disposing of vampire counts armies, for the following reasons.

1. Unless a vampire gets involved, Ogres will go to town on undead infantry with their low WS and armour saves. Give 'em additional hand weapons and watch them bash their way towards a massive combat resolution.

2. Killing blow won't work! This makes Grave guard a lot less scary than usual, especially given that they can't be raised. There armour may be slightly more of a problem. Think of them as semi-elite dwarf infantry. Difficult to crack, but if you can hit their flank with ironguts or rhinoxen, they'll crumble quickly. They should also be prime targets for the scraplauncher!

3. Of course, fear has no effect on Ogres, cancelling a major advantage of the undead. Given that you'll probably only lose combat by a small margin in most cases, not autobreaking is priceless. Watch out for a large unit carrying the Hell Banner (I think), which makes the entire unit cause terror, and thus cause fear in Ogres. This can be especially deadly on a unit of black knights with a vampire!

4. You should be able to keep a lid on the VC magic phase. The infamous Curse of Years isn't much of a problem (IIRC it's only one die per model in the target unit, so that's fine against Ogres) and Hand of Dust is uniformly awful. The remaining spells can be annoying, but your main priority is to dispel Invocations and Vanhel, to stop the undead from outpositioning you. Feel free to allow the occasional Gaze of Nagash if you have to, especially if you've got something to deflect magic from your main units.

5. Other than magic and banshees, nothing can attack you at range. Take advantage of this and be more aggressive. Against most units, you should be much better in combat, so get there as soon as possible!

6. Black coach, meet Ogre with S7 attacks (from whatever source). 'Nuff said. It might be an idea to try to tempt a charge with a butcher armed with the siegebreaker for this purpose.

7. Trappers are invaluable for forcing Necromancers to hide in a unit, just watch out for a nearby banshee or terror-causing nasty... Some VC players I know use Ghoul bodyguards to swarm around their Necromancers. This can be quite effective, but if you can pull off a Braingobbler, they'll probably head for the hills, because they have very low Ld away from the general (which they probably will be if they're guarding a Necromancer)


Of course, there are some problems, such as dealing with tooled-up vampires, ethereal creatures, and very-heavy-magic armies, but hopefully the above should give you some points to bear in mind the next time you fancy your next meal being from a particularly good vintage...

Only problem is, skeletons aren't so much fun to eat. Too many bones, you see...

Ghorr

I have both a vampire army and a ogre army. I play , predictably , blood dragons. So how do you defeat a 6 attacks , hitting on 3s , rerolling missed first round of combat , str8 attack , in unit of black knights killing machine.

answer: let him hit your general's unit , issue a challenge with another character in the same unit as your general , E.G. a butcher. let him have something to try and soak up some wounds from the pounding, but expect to loose him, however the rest of the combat is yours , even if the knights hit and wound worst case is you loose 1 ogre to fight back and then your general tears them apart. So you prob do 4 wounds , prob out number , and all being well you've got an ogre from the ubit to hit back and then win the combat .

Better answer hit him , issue same challenge , impact hits , do some wounds to the blood dragon and kill him on combat res.

In theory

Well, getting a Gorger or two into combat with Necromancers will help alot, as it hurts their magical capibilities, and many VC army lists rely on magic. Maneaters with GWs can easily destroy the 200 point Black Coach in one hit, and Bulls and Ironguts should be able to easily crush Skeletons and zombies.

Bad idea. Since it's his turn, presumably because you said let him hit. He gets to issue challenges first. In fact, Blood Dragons must issue them! You accepting with your character is not a good idea, +6 in addition to standards and a rank(s) will not help you out here. Your Tyrant should step up to the plate, as he can take a beating, and dish it out.


No because he only rolls to hit, not to wound.



Zombies and Skellies have WS2...

Fr0

if there are two units of skeletons fighting a unit ogres or any other army and the skeletons lose combat, let say by 3. do they remove 3 models in total or do they remove 3 models from each unit that was in combat making it a total of 6.

If they take 3 wounds, they remove 3 models - you ahve to say which unit you are directing your attacks against before you roll for them.

i am saying if the skeletons LOST COMBAT BY 3. (CR) your opponent is supose to remove 3 models or as many as he has lost by.  so i ask, if there were 2 units of skeletons in the same combat (2 units charge one unit of ogres.)and the skeletons lost combat by 3. does he remove only 3 or does he remove 3 from each unit since they both lost.

Zombies will die like nobody's bussiness if they're bull charged by bulls, as 4 bulls with additional hand weapons will score an average of 7 kills, 3 bullc charge kills, and then 'afterburn' kills. You're hitting on 3's, and don't forget it. That's one of your biggest advantages here. Watch out for lahmian vampires, as they can force a model in base-to-base contact to take a leadership test at -1 or not attack the vampire, not attack at all, not attack at all and be autohit, or attack your own troops, by means of the bloodline powers Beguile, Transfix, Domination and Seduction respectively. Banshees can be a thorn in your side, as an average scream will infilct 2 wounds on a unit of bulls. Watch out for ethereals, as without a decent number of magic weapons, you won't be able to hurt them due to the Ogres' lack of static CR.

I would think both units would lose 3 models. I base this off the fact that if they did have to take a leadership test, they would both take leadership tests at -3. Since instead they lose models from the leadership penalties, I would think they both lose the models.

Correct. Each unit involved in a multiple combat, tally up CR for all the units fighting, and take the same break test, and win/lose combat by the same number all around. So, they both lose the models.

Fr0

thanks because the person i played against only took a total of 3 models from one unit. i just guess that was correct because i dont know much about the vampires.

Mind you, characters can put the CR on themselves if they wish.

Fr0

All strigoi must pursue, because they hate everything.  You can set some gnoblars up to flee, with some nice flank charges in place.  the VC player wouldn't be able to do anything...

Against necrarch tyrant took out a vampire lord with the thundermace in a challenge the other day, but not before my 'guts chewed through his unit.  by that point he had gotten another unit of skellies and a wraith into combat, and I got a block of gnoblars in there.   What insanity... I think I won combat by 13 one turn, after overkill.

i find that having two butchers works.  Have bulls run after skeletons with two hand weapons and cast the strength spell on them.  ironguts are obvious against the wights.  And I thought it was so funny when my unit of 4 yhetees went after a huge block of spirit host.

All in all, if the VC magic doesnt go off spectacularly, then I dont think that this army has much chance against ogres. Unless they find something very disgusting to do with their vampire ( and I mean really gross ).

I'm playing against vampires sometimes, and I can't figure out how to beat them...

I mean a big block of how do I make it against a huge block of 40 skellies??

well did it start out at 40? If it did, then you have to hit with multiple things and possibly yhetees.

What the configuration of the rest of the army?

Also, Hellheart helps.

It has to be non other than "starting out with 40", since a VC player cannot increase the number of minis in a unit, more than it started with... so if a unit of skellies starts with 20, the player cannot create more than 20 skellies, inside that unit....

cheers

wait, i thought that VC wasnt limited by that and Tomb Kings cant increase their size.

I thougth so to, he allways starts with a unit of 20-30 skellies...

Anyway, he use to use a unit of 10 blacknights, 20 skellies, 16-20 graveguards, 2 units of 6 ghouls, 3 spirithost swarms, a banchee, and 4 necros.

I have problem with the spirithosts and the banchee since I have no magic weapons except from my tyrant.

The necros are the real pain in the ass.. they hide behind the rest of the army and casts evil spells.
The butcher isn't that usefull since he costs 130pts.

banshees are hard to take down without magic weapons, but go down easily with the bangstick.
One other way to take it down is to charge it with a unit of 9 trappers (inside the general's aura).
This way, the trappers won't get to attack back, but have the numbers to deal 1 wound to the banshee (as long as the banshee doesn't kill anyone). In any case, the banshee will stay put for a couple of turns (and might even "die").

the best would be to use gnoblar fighters for this, but the 90° LOS makes it hard to charge a loner.

cheers

I find the bangstick verry useful, but since it only got a powerlevel of 3 it doesn't help that much... mind that he got about 4 necros hanging around behind the army.

Can a unit owerrun on resulotion??
In that case a unit of bulls or similary could charge it if the bachee gets in the way.

well, I think this is where yhetees shine.

But, taking the hell heart will be disruptive and having trappers is another necessity.

Oddly enough, Ogres are one of the few armies that are at a natural advantage when fighting a necromancer horde. You have absolutely nothing to fear from their units, both because you cause fear yourself and you don't have to worry about any combat characters at all.

Secondly, while he does have loads of magic, it is the type of magic that just isn't very powerful against ogres. Curse of years is laughable against ogres, and the infamous summon-danse just doesn't work very well. Without any ranks to negate, summon-danse units are trashed by your most basic ogre regiment.

If you are really worried about the other VC spells, then invest in a hellheart and a scroll or two. Save those scrolls for the game breaking spells, and use the hellheart the turn before impact.

It works on me

Hellheart looks really nice but I rather spend thoose points on 2 dispelscrolls. If I had two butchers I maybe could take the heart but two of them is too expencive. I maybe should try it sometime.

But if there is a regiment of 30-40 skellies?? and 2 squads of ghouls watching his ass? and then 16 graveguards?

If I managed to hit his general with the scrappie.... hmm....
And braingobbler on the gouls...
And Ironguts on thoose graveguards..

I used the heart the last game and it worked really well..
He dared not to use a single spell  , but I don't think the chanse is too big he get miscast.. I tested to roll 2 dices for about 8 times and I only got double one time..

Can a unit owerrun on resulotion??
In that case a unit of bulls or similary could charge it if the bachee gets in the way.

well, I think this is where yhetees shine.

But, taking the hell heart will be disruptive and having trappers is another necessity.

I thougth so to, he allways starts with a unit of 20-30 skellies...

Anyway, he use to use a unit of 10 blacknights, 20 skellies, 16-20 graveguards, 2 units of 6 ghouls, 3 spirithost swarms, a banchee, and 4 necros.

I have problem with the spirithosts and the banchee since I have no magic weapons except from my tyrant.

The necros are the real pain in the ass.. they hide behind the rest of the army and casts evil spells.
The butcher isn't that usefull since he costs 130pts.

Oddly enough, Ogres are one of the few armies that are at a natural advantage when fighting a necromancer horde. You have absolutely nothing to fear from their units, both because you cause fear yourself and you don't have to worry about any combat characters at all.

Secondly, while he does have loads of magic, it is the type of magic that just isn't very powerful against ogres. Curse of years is laughable against ogres, and the infamous summon-danse just doesn't work very well. Without any ranks to negate, summon-danse units are trashed by your most basic ogre regiment.

If you are really worried about the other VC spells, then invest in a hellheart and a scroll or two. Save those scrolls for the game breaking spells, and use the hellheart the turn before impact.

It works on me

Hellheart looks really nice but I rather spend thoose points on 2 dispelscrolls. If I had two butchers I maybe could take the heart but two of them is too expencive. I maybe should try it sometime.

But if there is a regiment of 30-40 skellies?? and 2 squads of ghouls watching his ass? and then 16 graveguards?

If I managed to hit his general with the scrappie.... hmm....
And braingobbler on the gouls...
And Ironguts on thoose graveguards..

I used the heart the last game and it worked really well..
He dared not to use a single spell  , but I don't think the chanse is too big he get miscast.. I tested to roll 2 dices for about 8 times and I only got double one time..

hi guys, i play VC alot, and have played in 8 tournaments with them. I have played all bloodlines at tournaments bar the pirates one. Normally get 3 massacres, a major win and a couple of draws or a minor win. If you don’t mind some advice from me, I will give it. Take what you will, leave the rest.

1.   strigoi don’t have to pursue. They have hatred, not frenzy.
2.   Panic.  Be aware that vs a necro army you will be in trouble from being panicked to death. What I do vs OK is lock them in with a couple of huge blocks of zombies from the front, then raise/ move some skellies just behind/to the flank and charge them in. you do cause fear, but you do still panic tho. That is how my necro army works. I cant crack an empire knights 1+ armour, but I can make them flee from panic.
3.   yes you can over run from killing all undead thru CR.
4.   VC can raise over their starting unit size.
5.   watch out for the new edition rules for death lore. Making a fear terror now cause terror will make it interesting now…
6.   watch out for out for black knight cav. Lethal even if charged if they have a vamp in there.

Prob a lot more but am at work at the mo…

Cheers

chris

In response to point 2 - in 7th edition, no more panic checks for units engaged in combat might make a big difference to cascading panic checks.

kineater bigname rather useful here!

another useful tip - kill all the ghouls as fast as possible (bangstick, bonecruncher, leadbelcher, etc) - those poison attacks are a real pain to an army like ours.

i think that alot of VC people will now be using death magic vs OK. imagine the chance to now cause terror on skellies!! i have tried it with necromancy on general, and 2 death necros. lethal... 1st game necro a had 1d6 str 4 MM, drain soul, necro b had 1d6 str4 MM, 2d6 MM!! who needs to raise more dudes when you can shred them from afar?!

cheers
chris

The way I rip VC's a new one is by sending in waves, dispelling only what affects you(magic missiles) and then chagring in with units of bulls and allocating attacks on the necro's with 8 attacks from bulls. Who cares if you lose combat? You just buggered up their magic phase!! And don't try that on the Vampire, they're too tough. Challenge them with your Tederiser Tyrant and leave a red smear on the landscape where he used to be Then engage units in flanks and rears and kill them in CC, Combat Res, and Crumbling!! They don't live very long like that!

and then chagring in with units of bulls and allocating attacks on the necro's with 8 attacks from bulls. Who cares if you lose combat? You just buggered up their magic phase!!

Problem is that most VC players who are any good won't let you charge their necros as easily as that. That's what we have the necro-bunker for - there' no getting in unless you chew through the 25-30+ skeletons in the front.
Any VC who let's his necro be killed that easily is probably not a very experienced player ...

Cheers, Mutter

I have troubles against VC. Their ghouls hit me and with their two poisoned attacks they rip my bulls apart. Then when I'm coming in to kill his head guy who makes the army crumble he uses his high amounts of PD (For the points) to summon tons of zombies in front of me and locking me in place. What to do.....

the only spell you have to scroll against VC is the invocation - anythign else you can live with if the dice don't fall your way.

the invocation, however, is the only way a vampire counts army can get tactically tricksy - so stop this and its meat-and-potatoes all the way

take 2-3 scrolls against VC (at 2000 points) and stop those invocations!!

I actually let the invocations through unless they are the only thing to dispel or they are trying to protect the Vampire. As when you kill the Vampire you just attack the units and they drop in their droves(Combined attacks, CR and Crumbling.).

what else are you worried about in the VC spell list?

curse of years - isn't good against ogres

hand of death - nasty, but 1-shot and if we get the charge its near-useless

charge spell (danse, I think) - interesting tactially, but not necessarily a must-dispel spell except under specific circumstances

the strike first+re-roll spell - they can't hit for toffee anyway, nothing to worry about.

gaze of nagaash - a nasty magic missile, but generally survivable

leaving only the invocation - and I for one don't want units appearing at odd angles in front of my ogres or rhinoxen to divert them from the main battle, or to have something pop-up to block LoS or to increase comabt res through flank or rear bonuses - never mind undo my hard work in close combat by regen-ing an entire unit and holding me up for another turn.

since VC can only win by wearing you down - and can only wear you down with invocation, this is the spell to stop IMO.

Saw a VC vs OK game yesterday. VC had a Count on Zombiedragon and I must say Ogres had no chance in hell to kill that guy. The Tyrant got smashed in notime by the WS10 -2 hit Count. One tactic is trying to ingnore the Vampire but it gets so much harder if hes on a large Dragon eating away at your troops.

counts on dragons are hard to beat, but the point sink they represent should mean that you can crush the rest of the army fairly quickly and move on to better things.

a tyrant with a tenderiser can take something like that down, but is in for a tougher fight than usual.

other ideas would be to chuck gnoblars at it (large target means lots of sharp stuff),  or get more than one unit on to it at a time - with a standard, warbanner, outnumber and some wounds you can take this on CR if required.

I think Tyrants will be eaten alive most of the time due to all -to-hit-modifiers so throwing everything u can afford to sacrifice to keep him busy is probably a good idea.

I destroyed a Vampire army in my first 2250 game vs. them. Here's what I learned:

-Ogres have an huge advantage against them because they cause Fear also which negates one of the VC's best abilities.
-Use Yhetees to kill spirit hosts with their magical attacks.
-Use your cheap troops, like Gnoblars, to tie up his Zombies/Skeletons. That way they won't be tying up your expensive units and exposing their flanks to Knight charges.
-Use your heavy hitting troops to isolate their knights and take them out. Try not to let them get the charge OR if you can't force them to charge a unit that has a support unit that can counter charge in the flank on your turn. The cool thing about Ogres is that you should be able to hold from a Knight Charge with your high toughness and wounds as long as your Tyrant is nearby for the Ld 9. It's all in how you setup.
-Let your opponent cast Invocation. Ogres can kill Skeletons easily so let this spell go off and focus on dispelling his magic charges and magic missiles. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but my strategy was to tie up his weak troops (the kind he makes from Invocation) with my weak troops and isolate all his good stuff and kill it. For this reason the Invocation was useless to stop because I was tying up those extra Skeleton units with my Gnoblars. I tie up his points sinks with 50 pts. Gnoblars unit. Beautiful!!
-If you can, charge the necro bunker later, once you've got rid of all the dangerous flankers. Try not to let the opponent tie you up with the Necro bunker skele/zombie fortress early. Ogres are very mobile and if you crush his expensive flanking troops and avoid his tarpit you can usually undo it by going around it.

I didn't even read the topic , but heres some advice against Undead:

 - Why care about those Ethereal, Spirit Hosts and such will just get raped by that Tenderizer wielding Tyrant. Proved.
 - Not-Autobreaking is really Priceless.
 - Remember that you are always the one who will dominate the Close Combat phase. Some say that BK and a Vampire in them are a probelm. Meh. Just throw in a Tyrant with some GW wielding Maneaters backed up with a flank charge and watch them crumble.
 - Your also the one who will shoot. Scraps are great agains big blocks of Undead and Leadbelchers can blast those Fast Cav. and Bats back to hell.
 - Never underestimate the power of the Slave Giant. I once killed a Necromanser, who was walking alone, by picking up a Zombie and then hurling it right at the poor Mage. Splat!
 - Gorgers are great to give you some chance to get those Necros behind the Zombie hordes. Because of KB also good to hunt some well armoured troops, mainly from the rear.
 - Yhetees are another thing to get those Ethereals down. Ignore Terrain and fast moving assures that these guys will end up right where u want them for a supporting charge in the flank or rear.
 - Use Gnoblars to wear down youre opponent.
 - Take the Black Coach down with either that Tenderizer Tyrant or some GW wielding Maneaters.
 - Zombies actually are quite hurt by Sharp Stuff.
 - Be sure to have enough Magic Defense, youre gonna need it.

As I come to play against the VC army, I feel that they will strugle if they mistcast.

-As for the previous post..  facing spirit hosts, I would use gnoblars against them, keeping the tyrant near to pass their fear test. The spirit hosts are as weak as the gnoblars. WS 2 & STR 3, Which means hitting on 4's. Assuming you have a unit of 25 gnoblars. He would have to make 5 wounds to make you roll for a break test that's if no gnoblars cause any wounds. So the hosts will be tied up for a few turns.

-If there's any black coaches, the Tyrant can handle them with a Great Weapon.

-I often sent my gorgers hunting the vampires. With their killing blow denying armour saves, the vamps will die with ease. They and Maneaters are also good vs banshee's since their scream does not affect them (immune to psy).

-Believe it or not, a butcher put's up a fair fight against a unit of fell bats unless your opponent rolls 6's to wound but I don't recomend it.

-Personally, i'm not a fan of slave giants and I would choose a gorgers over him anytime.

-As for the previous post..  facing spirit hosts, I would use gnoblars against them, keeping the tyrant near to pass their fear test. The spirit hosts are as weak as the gnoblars. WS 2 & STR 3, Which means hitting on 4's. Assuming you have a unit of 25 gnoblars. He would have to make 5 wounds to make you roll for a break test that's if no gnoblars cause any wounds. So the hosts will be tied up for a few turns.

gnoblars can't wound spirit hosts - the hosts are ethereal, gnoblars can only win on their static combat res.

personally, I'd prefer to get a hero with a magical weapon stuck into the hosts - at 65 points/base they are easy VPs for a tyrant with tenderiser - in a unit of guts I've taken down 3 bases in a single turn.

Well ive found when playing VC you gotta be at your wits end the whole time, For instance out fear is practicaly useless and another thing ogres usualy have covered is speed, but never underestimate the speed of VC! You may think that you have speed on your side but the amount of tricks they pull outa there sleaves is overwelming, bound spells and items and spells that throw the forward can get you if your not paying full attention, experienced this far to many times  !!

Vampire Count's methods are four fold:

• Fear
• Phat Characters
• High Static Combat Resolution
• Magic

Being that Ogres (aside from Gnoblars) cause fear, one source of the Count's powers are weakened; No longer can they out number and use fear to make you autorun.
 
The second method, the characters within the units, is still an easily negated problem. The main place this will injure you is when you're running a unit without characters against an Undead one with a character. Depending on the nature of the unit you may win or lose combat in equal amounts. If you are fighting a unit of Zombies or Skeletons, their base troops are easy pickings for your ogres, who smash through Skeleton's light armor with Ogre Clubs and are tough to wound (5+) for these troops. A Vampire Thrall or Count in the unit provides 3 or 4 attacks (4 or 5; Strigoi) and is likely to hit with every attack (Vampires can have anywhere between WS 4 and 10, Depending On Blood Line) or miss only one. It is then likely that they will wound with all but one attack (Strength 5). So it is likely that your ogres will be wounded twice (three times if a Count is present), and you will then roll your attacks against Zombies/Skeletons. Your 9 standard attacks are likely to send 6 undead back to the grave, higher if you are lucky, lower if you are not. Then undead's static combat resolution will win the combat, and you'll be forced to take a break test.
In order to prevent such an occurance, run characters of your own within your units and challenge if you charge. If the Vampire charges and challenges then accept! It is better to get the attacks of your character (especially if it is a Tyrant with a tenderiser; Overkill!) then not at all. And it keeps the undead character from striking your unit, where he would much more easily wound.
Graveguard and Black Knight units with characters are particularly nasty, being much harder to wound with your standard Ogres. Gang up on these units, or whittle them down with Lead Belchers, a Scrap Launcher, or a few Bonecrunchers before facing them in combat.

High Static Combat Resolution, mentioned in the above paragraphs, is easily remedied by a unit of Yhetees in the flank. Flanks are of paramount importance against the undead foe, rarely will you find a core unit of undead lacking in ranks. Your best bet is to lose the first round of combat, pass your break test, and then flank as soon as possible!

Magic! Undead magic is a big problem. Their 6 spell, Curse of Years, isn't as big a deal against our units, since we generally have few ogres in any one unit, meaning there aren't enough dice being rolled to guarantee a kill or two. But if left untreated, a Curse of Years can rapidly become a very serious problem. Their raising spell, Invocation of Nehek, is wicked because it not only can be used to raise into units that are suffering at the hands of your ogres, but it can be used to make new units on your ogre's exposed flanks and rear! Hand of dust can aid a Necromancer in taking down an ogre in a single shot, but is the least of your worries when facing the legions of the dead. They have a 2d6 Str 4 24" magic missile as well that can really wreck a unit of unarmored Bulls or even one of Ironguts. They've got a spell that lets them strike first in combat and reroll their misses, but this isn't too much of a worry (Ogres have low initiative anyways), though the rerolling of misses can result in some undesirable results. Perhaps their most troublesome spell, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, enables an undead unit to move forward 8 inches and charge anything they come into contact with. Undead are an army you definitely want impact hits against, so stop this spell at all costs!
To compete with Undead magic, run at least two Butchers with plenty of dispel scrolls! Given the chance, always dispel the magic missile (Gaze of Nagash) and Vanhel's Danse Macabre. Hand of Dust and Hellish Vigor are not intolerable, therefore let them alone if you think your opponent plans to cast other, more useful spells during their magic phase. Invocation of Nehek likewise is not intolerable, you can let it go if they're raising into a unit, but if they're raising a new unit be sure to attempt to dispel it. More static combat resolution in the form of a flank or rear charge is not something you can deal with. Curse of Years should be dispelled at your leisure.

I'd say throw your gnoblars up against spirit hosts. The spirit hosts probably won't wound, and the gnoblars can't. The gnoblars can win through combat resolution and cause plenty of wounds that way. All the other VC units are fear causing, and either as numerous as the gnoblars or elite, so the gnoblars lose both ways.

Everyone seem to be afraid of Spirit hosts and forgetting the Banshee.

This ghostly lady's song has the potential to put out a mess load of damage to units with low Ld especially gnoblars but Bulls are not very safe either. She is also ethreal and does not need Line of sight of the target to howl and can howl even if marched, moved or declared a charge.

hi guys, i play VC alot, and have played in 8 tournaments with them. I have played all bloodlines at tournaments bar the pirates one. Normally get 3 massacres, a major win and a couple of draws or a minor win. If you don’t mind some advice from me, I will give it. Take what you will, leave the rest.

1.   strigoi don’t have to pursue. They have hatred, not frenzy.
2.   Panic.  Be aware that vs a necro army you will be in trouble from being panicked to death. What I do vs OK is lock them in with a couple of huge blocks of zombies from the front, then raise/ move some skellies just behind/to the flank and charge them in. you do cause fear, but you do still panic tho. That is how my necro army works. I cant crack an empire knights 1+ armour, but I can make them flee from panic.
3.   yes you can over run from killing all undead thru CR.
4.   VC can raise over their starting unit size.
5.   watch out for the new edition rules for death lore. Making a fear terror now cause terror will make it interesting now…
6.   watch out for out for black knight cav. Lethal even if charged if they have a vamp in there.

Prob a lot more but am at work at the mo…

Cheers

chris

In response to point 2 - in 7th edition, no more panic checks for units engaged in combat might make a big difference to cascading panic checks.

kineater bigname rather useful here!

another useful tip - kill all the ghouls as fast as possible (bangstick, bonecruncher, leadbelcher, etc) - those poison attacks are a real pain to an army like ours.

i think that alot of VC people will now be using death magic vs OK. imagine the chance to now cause terror on skellies!! i have tried it with necromancy on general, and 2 death necros. lethal... 1st game necro a had 1d6 str 4 MM, drain soul, necro b had 1d6 str4 MM, 2d6 MM!! who needs to raise more dudes when you can shred them from afar?!

cheers
chris

The way I rip VC's a new one is by sending in waves, dispelling only what affects you(magic missiles) and then chagring in with units of bulls and allocating attacks on the necro's with 8 attacks from bulls. Who cares if you lose combat? You just buggered up their magic phase!! And don't try that on the Vampire, they're too tough. Challenge them with your Tederiser Tyrant and leave a red smear on the landscape where he used to be Then engage units in flanks and rears and kill them in CC, Combat Res, and Crumbling!! They don't live very long like that!

Problem is that most VC players who are any good won't let you charge their necros as easily as that. That's what we have the necro-bunker for - there' no getting in unless you chew through the 25-30+ skeletons in the front.
Any VC who let's his necro be killed that easily is probably not a very experienced player ...

Cheers, Mutter

I have troubles against VC. Their ghouls hit me and with their two poisoned attacks they rip my bulls apart. Then when I'm coming in to kill his head guy who makes the army crumble he uses his high amounts of PD (For the points) to summon tons of zombies in front of me and locking me in place. What to do.....

the only spell you have to scroll against VC is the invocation - anythign else you can live with if the dice don't fall your way.

the invocation, however, is the only way a vampire counts army can get tactically tricksy - so stop this and its meat-and-potatoes all the way

take 2-3 scrolls against VC (at 2000 points) and stop those invocations!!

I actually let the invocations through unless they are the only thing to dispel or they are trying to protect the Vampire. As when you kill the Vampire you just attack the units and they drop in their droves(Combined attacks, CR and Crumbling.).

what else are you worried about in the VC spell list?

curse of years - isn't good against ogres

hand of death - nasty, but 1-shot and if we get the charge its near-useless

charge spell (danse, I think) - interesting tactially, but not necessarily a must-dispel spell except under specific circumstances

the strike first+re-roll spell - they can't hit for toffee anyway, nothing to worry about.

gaze of nagaash - a nasty magic missile, but generally survivable

leaving only the invocation - and I for one don't want units appearing at odd angles in front of my ogres or rhinoxen to divert them from the main battle, or to have something pop-up to block LoS or to increase comabt res through flank or rear bonuses - never mind undo my hard work in close combat by regen-ing an entire unit and holding me up for another turn.

since VC can only win by wearing you down - and can only wear you down with invocation, this is the spell to stop IMO.

Saw a VC vs OK game yesterday. VC had a Count on Zombiedragon and I must say Ogres had no chance in hell to kill that guy. The Tyrant got smashed in notime by the WS10 -2 hit Count. One tactic is trying to ingnore the Vampire but it gets so much harder if hes on a large Dragon eating away at your troops.

counts on dragons are hard to beat, but the point sink they represent should mean that you can crush the rest of the army fairly quickly and move on to better things.

a tyrant with a tenderiser can take something like that down, but is in for a tougher fight than usual.

other ideas would be to chuck gnoblars at it (large target means lots of sharp stuff),  or get more than one unit on to it at a time - with a standard, warbanner, outnumber and some wounds you can take this on CR if required.

I think Tyrants will be eaten alive most of the time due to all -to-hit-modifiers so throwing everything u can afford to sacrifice to keep him busy is probably a good idea.

I destroyed a Vampire army in my first 2250 game vs. them. Here's what I learned:

-Ogres have an huge advantage against them because they cause Fear also which negates one of the VC's best abilities.
-Use Yhetees to kill spirit hosts with their magical attacks.
-Use your cheap troops, like Gnoblars, to tie up his Zombies/Skeletons. That way they won't be tying up your expensive units and exposing their flanks to Knight charges.
-Use your heavy hitting troops to isolate their knights and take them out. Try not to let them get the charge OR if you can't force them to charge a unit that has a support unit that can counter charge in the flank on your turn. The cool thing about Ogres is that you should be able to hold from a Knight Charge with your high toughness and wounds as long as your Tyrant is nearby for the Ld 9. It's all in how you setup.
-Let your opponent cast Invocation. Ogres can kill Skeletons easily so let this spell go off and focus on dispelling his magic charges and magic missiles. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but my strategy was to tie up his weak troops (the kind he makes from Invocation) with my weak troops and isolate all his good stuff and kill it. For this reason the Invocation was useless to stop because I was tying up those extra Skeleton units with my Gnoblars. I tie up his points sinks with 50 pts. Gnoblars unit. Beautiful!!
-If you can, charge the necro bunker later, once you've got rid of all the dangerous flankers. Try not to let the opponent tie you up with the Necro bunker skele/zombie fortress early. Ogres are very mobile and if you crush his expensive flanking troops and avoid his tarpit you can usually undo it by going around it.

I didn't even read the topic , but heres some advice against Undead:

 - Why care about those Ethereal, Spirit Hosts and such will just get raped by that Tenderizer wielding Tyrant. Proved.
 - Not-Autobreaking is really Priceless.
 - Remember that you are always the one who will dominate the Close Combat phase. Some say that BK and a Vampire in them are a probelm. Meh. Just throw in a Tyrant with some GW wielding Maneaters backed up with a flank charge and watch them crumble.
 - Your also the one who will shoot. Scraps are great agains big blocks of Undead and Leadbelchers can blast those Fast Cav. and Bats back to hell.
 - Never underestimate the power of the Slave Giant. I once killed a Necromanser, who was walking alone, by picking up a Zombie and then hurling it right at the poor Mage. Splat!
 - Gorgers are great to give you some chance to get those Necros behind the Zombie hordes. Because of KB also good to hunt some well armoured troops, mainly from the rear.
 - Yhetees are another thing to get those Ethereals down. Ignore Terrain and fast moving assures that these guys will end up right where u want them for a supporting charge in the flank or rear.
 - Use Gnoblars to wear down youre opponent.
 - Take the Black Coach down with either that Tenderizer Tyrant or some GW wielding Maneaters.
 - Zombies actually are quite hurt by Sharp Stuff.
 - Be sure to have enough Magic Defense, youre gonna need it.

As I come to play against the VC army, I feel that they will strugle if they mistcast.

-As for the previous post..  facing spirit hosts, I would use gnoblars against them, keeping the tyrant near to pass their fear test. The spirit hosts are as weak as the gnoblars. WS 2 & STR 3, Which means hitting on 4's. Assuming you have a unit of 25 gnoblars. He would have to make 5 wounds to make you roll for a break test that's if no gnoblars cause any wounds. So the hosts will be tied up for a few turns.

-If there's any black coaches, the Tyrant can handle them with a Great Weapon.

-I often sent my gorgers hunting the vampires. With their killing blow denying armour saves, the vamps will die with ease. They and Maneaters are also good vs banshee's since their scream does not affect them (immune to psy).

-Believe it or not, a butcher put's up a fair fight against a unit of fell bats unless your opponent rolls 6's to wound but I don't recomend it.

-Personally, i'm not a fan of slave giants and I would choose a gorgers over him anytime.

gnoblars can't wound spirit hosts - the hosts are ethereal, gnoblars can only win on their static combat res.

personally, I'd prefer to get a hero with a magical weapon stuck into the hosts - at 65 points/base they are easy VPs for a tyrant with tenderiser - in a unit of guts I've taken down 3 bases in a single turn.

Well ive found when playing VC you gotta be at your wits end the whole time, For instance out fear is practicaly useless and another thing ogres usualy have covered is speed, but never underestimate the speed of VC! You may think that you have speed on your side but the amount of tricks they pull outa there sleaves is overwelming, bound spells and items and spells that throw the forward can get you if your not paying full attention, experienced this far to many times  !!

Vampire Count's methods are four fold:

• Fear
• Phat Characters
• High Static Combat Resolution
• Magic

Being that Ogres (aside from Gnoblars) cause fear, one source of the Count's powers are weakened; No longer can they out number and use fear to make you autorun.
 
The second method, the characters within the units, is still an easily negated problem. The main place this will injure you is when you're running a unit without characters against an Undead one with a character. Depending on the nature of the unit you may win or lose combat in equal amounts. If you are fighting a unit of Zombies or Skeletons, their base troops are easy pickings for your ogres, who smash through Skeleton's light armor with Ogre Clubs and are tough to wound (5+) for these troops. A Vampire Thrall or Count in the unit provides 3 or 4 attacks (4 or 5; Strigoi) and is likely to hit with every attack (Vampires can have anywhere between WS 4 and 10, Depending On Blood Line) or miss only one. It is then likely that they will wound with all but one attack (Strength 5). So it is likely that your ogres will be wounded twice (three times if a Count is present), and you will then roll your attacks against Zombies/Skeletons. Your 9 standard attacks are likely to send 6 undead back to the grave, higher if you are lucky, lower if you are not. Then undead's static combat resolution will win the combat, and you'll be forced to take a break test.
In order to prevent such an occurance, run characters of your own within your units and challenge if you charge. If the Vampire charges and challenges then accept! It is better to get the attacks of your character (especially if it is a Tyrant with a tenderiser; Overkill!) then not at all. And it keeps the undead character from striking your unit, where he would much more easily wound.
Graveguard and Black Knight units with characters are particularly nasty, being much harder to wound with your standard Ogres. Gang up on these units, or whittle them down with Lead Belchers, a Scrap Launcher, or a few Bonecrunchers before facing them in combat.

High Static Combat Resolution, mentioned in the above paragraphs, is easily remedied by a unit of Yhetees in the flank. Flanks are of paramount importance against the undead foe, rarely will you find a core unit of undead lacking in ranks. Your best bet is to lose the first round of combat, pass your break test, and then flank as soon as possible!

Magic! Undead magic is a big problem. Their 6 spell, Curse of Years, isn't as big a deal against our units, since we generally have few ogres in any one unit, meaning there aren't enough dice being rolled to guarantee a kill or two. But if left untreated, a Curse of Years can rapidly become a very serious problem. Their raising spell, Invocation of Nehek, is wicked because it not only can be used to raise into units that are suffering at the hands of your ogres, but it can be used to make new units on your ogre's exposed flanks and rear! Hand of dust can aid a Necromancer in taking down an ogre in a single shot, but is the least of your worries when facing the legions of the dead. They have a 2d6 Str 4 24" magic missile as well that can really wreck a unit of unarmored Bulls or even one of Ironguts. They've got a spell that lets them strike first in combat and reroll their misses, but this isn't too much of a worry (Ogres have low initiative anyways), though the rerolling of misses can result in some undesirable results. Perhaps their most troublesome spell, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, enables an undead unit to move forward 8 inches and charge anything they come into contact with. Undead are an army you definitely want impact hits against, so stop this spell at all costs!
To compete with Undead magic, run at least two Butchers with plenty of dispel scrolls! Given the chance, always dispel the magic missile (Gaze of Nagash) and Vanhel's Danse Macabre. Hand of Dust and Hellish Vigor are not intolerable, therefore let them alone if you think your opponent plans to cast other, more useful spells during their magic phase. Invocation of Nehek likewise is not intolerable, you can let it go if they're raising into a unit, but if they're raising a new unit be sure to attempt to dispel it. More static combat resolution in the form of a flank or rear charge is not something you can deal with. Curse of Years should be dispelled at your leisure.

I'd say throw your gnoblars up against spirit hosts. The spirit hosts probably won't wound, and the gnoblars can't. The gnoblars can win through combat resolution and cause plenty of wounds that way. All the other VC units are fear causing, and either as numerous as the gnoblars or elite, so the gnoblars lose both ways.

Everyone seem to be afraid of Spirit hosts and forgetting the Banshee.

This ghostly lady's song has the potential to put out a mess load of damage to units with low Ld especially gnoblars but Bulls are not very safe either. She is also ethreal and does not need Line of sight of the target to howl and can howl even if marched, moved or declared a charge.

The models which should be scared of banshees aren't gnoblars, but your small units of ogres/characters. We generally have low leadership, and alot of wounds across a couple of models really hurts. And we don't have alot that can hunt banshees down. Butchers and tyrants/bruisers can, but that runs the risk of them getting screamed to death and places them where they shouldn't be.

A friend of mine that plays VC, uses his banshee's against my butchers so I must always put them in units. Best bet against a banshee, maneater/gorger and magic missiles.

Banshees are a bit of a problem, but if you have three Butchers+a Bangstick she's easy pickings... 9 Spells a turn, let's say half of those fail or are dispelled, if one of the spells that gets through is the Bangstick or a Bonecruncher (and it should be) then she can blasted before she does any damage.

Otherwise, use a unit of Yhetees or a Hunter with a magic weapon to get her on their way to the main battle.

Hunter with beastkiller bigname and sword of might/biting blade=bye bye banshee

Why the Beastkiller Big Name?

beastkiller makes the ogre immune to psychology - so immune to banshee wailing

dont forget how maneuverable VC are! i have a fav trick of mounting a count on a nightmare, march forward and raise a new unit of skellies behind your troops. now they are march block and have to deal with the skellies now. zombie maze is also rather annoying to have to deal with.OK do provide a head ache for VC but VC should never be underestimated!

chris

my favourite way of countering VC's more mobile generals is to charge my tyrant out of a unit - I find he can get through many a gap - and once a tyrant has a charge on a general, it's pretty much game over.

Got a game coming up against a VC player. We're playing in a league that requires a 1500-point static list. His static list is:

Blood Dragon Vampire Count
Magic Level 2; Lance; Full Plate Armour; Shield, Red Fury, Heart Piercing, Wristbands of Black Gold, on Winged Nightmare
1 Necromancer, level 2, on barded Nightmare with Book of Arkhan and Dispel Scroll
19 Skeleton Warriors, spears and shields, full command
19 Skeleton Warriors, spears and shields, full command
10 Dire Wolves
10 Dire Wolves
6 Black Knights, barding, full command, Banner of the Barrows

Mine is:

1 Tyrant w/Longstrider, Tenderiser, Wyrdstone Necklace, and Luck Gnoblar
1 Butcher w/Bangstick, Dispel Scroll, Tooth Gnoblar
4 Ironguts w/Standard and Bellower
4 Ironguts w/Standard and Bellower
3 Ogre Bulls w/Extra HW and Bellower
3 Ogre Bulls w/Extra HW and Bellower
20 Gnoblars
8 Gnoblar Trappers
2 Leadbelchers w/Bellower
2 Leadbelchers w/Bellower

That's 1517 points. I can see arguments for bringing more Butchers, a Hunter, Bruiser BSB, Yhetees, more Bulls, Scraplauncher, Gorgers, Maneaters, and even a Slavegiant. Maneaters are perhaps the most questionable, as he doesn't seem to favor the Banshee, but he's quite fond of the Black Coach, so GWs could be useful there, besides what gets put on other characters and what the Tyrant already has.

At the moment, I'm most favoring another Butcher w/2 scrolls for more dispelling power and the Scraplauncher. After that, it's kind of a toss-up.

The models which should be scared of banshees aren't gnoblars, but your small units of ogres/characters. We generally have low leadership, and alot of wounds across a couple of models really hurts. And we don't have alot that can hunt banshees down. Butchers and tyrants/bruisers can, but that runs the risk of them getting screamed to death and places them where they shouldn't be.

A friend of mine that plays VC, uses his banshee's against my butchers so I must always put them in units. Best bet against a banshee, maneater/gorger and magic missiles.

Banshees are a bit of a problem, but if you have three Butchers+a Bangstick she's easy pickings... 9 Spells a turn, let's say half of those fail or are dispelled, if one of the spells that gets through is the Bangstick or a Bonecruncher (and it should be) then she can blasted before she does any damage.

Otherwise, use a unit of Yhetees or a Hunter with a magic weapon to get her on their way to the main battle.

Hunter with beastkiller bigname and sword of might/biting blade=bye bye banshee

Why the Beastkiller Big Name?

beastkiller makes the ogre immune to psychology - so immune to banshee wailing

dont forget how maneuverable VC are! i have a fav trick of mounting a count on a nightmare, march forward and raise a new unit of skellies behind your troops. now they are march block and have to deal with the skellies now. zombie maze is also rather annoying to have to deal with.OK do provide a head ache for VC but VC should never be underestimated!

chris

my favourite way of countering VC's more mobile generals is to charge my tyrant out of a unit - I find he can get through many a gap - and once a tyrant has a charge on a general, it's pretty much game over.

Got a game coming up against a VC player. We're playing in a league that requires a 1500-point static list. His static list is:

Blood Dragon Vampire Count
Magic Level 2; Lance; Full Plate Armour; Shield, Red Fury, Heart Piercing, Wristbands of Black Gold, on Winged Nightmare
1 Necromancer, level 2, on barded Nightmare with Book of Arkhan and Dispel Scroll
19 Skeleton Warriors, spears and shields, full command
19 Skeleton Warriors, spears and shields, full command
10 Dire Wolves
10 Dire Wolves
6 Black Knights, barding, full command, Banner of the Barrows

Mine is:

1 Tyrant w/Longstrider, Tenderiser, Wyrdstone Necklace, and Luck Gnoblar
1 Butcher w/Bangstick, Dispel Scroll, Tooth Gnoblar
4 Ironguts w/Standard and Bellower
4 Ironguts w/Standard and Bellower
3 Ogre Bulls w/Extra HW and Bellower
3 Ogre Bulls w/Extra HW and Bellower
20 Gnoblars
8 Gnoblar Trappers
2 Leadbelchers w/Bellower
2 Leadbelchers w/Bellower

That's 1517 points. I can see arguments for bringing more Butchers, a Hunter, Bruiser BSB, Yhetees, more Bulls, Scraplauncher, Gorgers, Maneaters, and even a Slavegiant. Maneaters are perhaps the most questionable, as he doesn't seem to favor the Banshee, but he's quite fond of the Black Coach, so GWs could be useful there, besides what gets put on other characters and what the Tyrant already has.

At the moment, I'm most favoring another Butcher w/2 scrolls for more dispelling power and the Scraplauncher. After that, it's kind of a toss-up.

Vampire counts are very easy to beat below 2000 pts because he can't get a Vampire Lord. Basic Bulls hit on 3's against his basic troops and will utterly crush most of his army. Gouls are very useful to the ogre player. If you charge them you will mince them and then overrun behind his army. The biggest threat is the unit the Vampire lord is in. If he is in a unit of grave guard hit them in the flanks. Don't charge him in the front, except if you have Rhinox Riders or maneaters with a Tyrant  . Lead belchers and scraplaunchers can be useful for attacking the unit the Lord is in. Black Knights are very dangerous but puting a small bull unit in there path and then fleeing will allow you to charge them. Consider a 3 man Yettie unit to kill off nasty spirit creatures.

 The magic of the vampire counts can be good, but an ogre army with 3 butchers or a slaughter master should be able to dispell alot of it. If your getting ready to charge the vampire lord with your tyrant make sure you have a wyrd stone necklace and trollguts on his unit, your going to need it.

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with a little of Lazyseer's advice

When facing vampire counts, let's look at the phase by phase matchup:

Movement phase - we move faster on average.  vampire counts have access to cavalry units (wolves, black knights) which are speedier, but unless such units are large and upgraded with characters/banners, it's nothing you can't weather.

in the movement phase, ogres have the edge.  This can be modified by the ability of VC to rob us of speed by raising march blocking units behind our lines - but that's in the magic phase...

Magic phase - this is the one you have to worry about.  No matter what you do at any points level, vampire counts can lay down more power and dispel dice than we can.  Not to mention all those choice and tasty bound items they pack.  The tactical flow of the game will hinge on beng able of successfully and efficiently negotiate this phase.

Shooting phase - negligible for both sides

Close Combat - we negate the fear effects of the undead with our own, robbing them of a major advantge.  In combat, not only should we have the charge, we can lay down the attacks to smash them to bits.  They can't run away, so can't do anything tricky either.

Definate advantage to the ogres - plus, once we're in combat, less spells happen.

All the tactical ability of VC comes from its magic.  This is how it can get into combat (magical movement), whittle down units (magic missile), get flanking/march bocking/scouting units (invocation) and heal the characters (invocation again).

since the magic phase relies on the luck of the dice and a certain amount of pscholog on the part of the VC player, you have to be aware of the probabilities and psych-tricks involved.

for the magic missile - just suck it up and take the pain, dispel only if you feel you have to.

magical move spell - don't forget that this comes in bound form too!  don't forget that fleeing is still an option if it will leave you in a better tactical position later.  Some VC units will try to tar-pit you by running a unit into your hammer, and then trying to expand it with invocations.

which brings us on to the best, and most vital spell, in the VC repetoire - invocation of nehek.  This is the spell you should be trying to stop and brining out those scrolls for.  without this spell, vc armies are devoid of tactical opportunities - jsut hope they don't keep getting irresistable force.

grave guard + vampire count:  I disagree that you need an uber-unit to take this apart - just charge the tyrant in and challenge (if its a blooddragon, so much the better as they can't refuse!).

If you get a chance to assassinate the general of a VC army, you take it - no questions asked!  Doing this WILL win you the game.  If you can't challenge, get into base contact and just allocate attacks - but he is the primary target all game long.

oh, and don't discount the ability of gorgers to do this job - killing blow is fun!  If you can't get to the general, taing out any other necromancers is the next best thing to weaken his only strong phase, the magic phase, that much more.

ill be playing a friend this weekend a 3000 pt game. and he has noticed in the back of the warhammer rule book where they have a list of all the army stats that spirit host and banshees are now toughness 7.

and knowing my friend he will bring lots of these two units. along with Zacharias and he wants me to bring
Greasus.   any tips?

Tell your friend he's quite wrong. the stats at the back of the warhammer book do not take into account any of the unit special rules, or points costs. they're just there to give beginners a chance to use some models they may already have. There is no space to explain ethereal, for example, so their toughness is jacked up to compensate and replicate their difficulty to kill. Unless otherwise stated, the army book always supercedes the rulebook so his ethereal creatures appear as they are in their army book.

Thanks
Corai

i agree with wildcard for a lot of things. however some points:

movement...to me, its not how fast you can move, but the ability to move where you want that provides an edge. you may set up a tricky trap, luring a unit and leaving it stranded, but what happens when the vamp raises a new unit of zombies directly in front of your unit so that you are redirected away? with 3 spell casters, very good chance of working.

yes skellies move 4 when the general is more than 12 in away, but i like the infantry to march slowly as it gives me more time to raise dudes.

combat...yes ogres will do a lot of damage in the first turn. we expect that. thats why we then raise more dudes up to replace them and maybe a new unit in the rear for the bonus. if i expect to be charged, i never put my combat monsters in the first unit to be engaged.

invocation makes the VC list playable and a very disruptive list. the true horror of playing against VC is that it makes you very reactive. my fav trick is to march my general 14 in forwards and create a new unit of zombies behind someones lines. sure they are just zombies but in 1 turn they can grow from 5 to 20 or 30(with alot of luck)!

all the bloodlines have their strengths. i play lahmians as they are poorly understood and a very powerful list. my lord character always goes first, has init 10, 5 str 5 attacks -3 armour, plus 1 auto str 5 hit, 5+ ward save and a 2+ save from first wound in combat (reflected back to oppo)!

chris

I'd just love you to move your general 14" towards my army - in fact, I'd be whooping with glee.

excellent charge opportunities for my tyrant - or indeed multiple units of ironguts/yhetees who will kill or beat him on combat res and crumble the army on turn 1.

suits me fine

normally I'm up against 4 spellcasters when I face VC - even more dice - and each 1 will have the invocation.  With 2-3 scrolls and 5 dispel dice I seem to be able to counter the things that really matter.  Its all about picking the correct targets for those scrolls.

check out a few of my battle reports vs. VC in the tales of conquest section.

My main opponent is a Blood Dragon VC player (3000 point games) who has taken to fielding one huge unit of black knights, about 16 or so (with a vampire count inside), another small unit of 7, and a Blood Dragon Vampire Lord on a zombie dragon. Thrown into this mix are two banshees, two groups of 10 ghouls, and about 4 packs of 5 dire wolves. He also uses bats to fly behind units that are going to be engaged in close combat to destroy them in the flee into the bats.

I have been trying to beat this combination for a while, but from what I have experienced, my Tyrant is the only thing that has a chance against the Lord on zombie dragon (-1 to hit :/), however given its mobility if he does not feel like fighting the Tyrant, the tyrant will never be able to engage him. Previously he was keen to fight my lord, however after noticing I would just attack the zombie dragon for easy combat resolution, he avoids him now. On the other side is the huge black knight regiment that pretty much bulldozes through my lines. The smaller knight squad and wolves are used as contant flanking threats.

What would you chaps suggest against an army such as this? Not much information out on fighting against an elite VC army as opposed to shambling hordes. Thanks for any help

this type of army is a different proposition for Ogres to deal with.  The upside is that you have less magic coming your way each turn as he's dropped the points into other things, and fields less characters as a result.

at 3000 points, ogres have a lot of options, not the least being a slaughtermaster (possibly even skragg if so inclined).  The main issue for you here though is countering his speed and mobility that his list presents.

My suggestions would tend to be towards

1) a butcher-heavy build, firing the bangstick and multiple bonecrunchers at the fast cav and bats - buffing IG units too.

2) lots of small units - you'll have to bait and counter-charge his knights, going 2 on 1 (or better) to beat them.

3) get as much speed as possible - the more mobile you are the better, so yhetees would also be recommended. Good for killing banshees too.

4) tie up the banshees with trappers - I love doing this and they often make their points back too.

5) ignore the dragon, smash everything else until you're read to deal.

6) consider a unir of 3 bull rhinox riders - even a unit of 16 black knights can crumble to a hit from something like that, and it'll really give your opponent something to worry about.

Kill the general, then magic users and banshees everything else can then be destroyed at leisure. If you can persuade them to charge, a 25 strong, ranked up unit of gnoblars will kill a banshee due to combat res. Bring a gorger as they are very handy for killing any solo necromancers lurking at the back of the battlefield. Lastly try not to get bogged down by none point scoring units of zombies or skeletons, nothing worse than when you can't quite finish them off in one turn and they keep getting replenished, so much more annoying than a swarm.

i tied up 2 banshees with some gnoblar trappers for 2 and a half turns. totally worth the points. 48 points ties up 180. eventually i got a hunter charge in to wipe up the mess there left over. i gave him the greyback pelt and the armor piercing sword so i was able to really smash him in combat relatively quickly.

skeletons are a total joke vs. ironguts. if they have spears, then it gets a tad interesting. if you can manage to get trollguts off, its like gg. regeneration and MR2. regen really saves the day if they get to swing back.

most of the time i see their head vamp challenging, and only with my tyrant would i consider. many times ill decline it, just because i know i will own the combat res, having the impact hits of 4 people, and having 3 ironguts swing, with a banner. thats awesome power vs. ranked skellies, even if he is in a huge unit.

the black knights are nasty indeed. the armor saves on cav really bug me. if you swing do impact hits, and swing in with ironguts, you should be doing fine.

but banshees, nasty. yhetees are great counters, or trappers.

@WILDCARD wooping with glee? well thats probably a bad thing for you to do. until you see what moving up really does to your game plan.

there is no way that i would move my general within your charge range. please give me some credit. what i would do is try and raise zombies at an angle to your unit. sure you may try and dispell but then you may not. even the old raise them behind your line to march block/ destroy fleeing dudes is grand. every turn i can put off combat is another 1-4 invocations. which (if very lucky for me) may be 8d6+8 (average 36 or 9 to 56) more zombies per turn.

@pudge yes skellies are a joke in a straight up battle with anything (even gnoblars!) but if VC can add to the unit and/ or raise new units in the rear, then its a whole new ball game. i keep the cursed book nearby (-1 to hit in combat) so it swings the battle in my favour.

oh and last weekend in a tournament 1 unit of skellies ran down 2 treemen in consecutive rounds. yes i was very lucky but it goes to show the VC fav of static CR still works.

its a simple tactic that works very well. i find OK an interesting army to face, but VC are built to take down elite MSU forces. we try and bog down your line and pick our fights when we want them (altho it doesnt always come off like that...)

cheers
chris

@WILDCARD wooping with glee? well thats probably a bad thing for you to do. until you see what moving up really does to your game plan.

there is no way that i would move my general within your charge range. please give me some credit. what i would do is try and raise zombies at an angle to your unit. sure you may try and dispell but then you may not. even the old raise them behind your line to march block/ destroy fleeing dudes is grand. every turn i can put off combat is another 1-4 invocations. which (if very lucky for me) may be 8d6+8 (average 36 or 9 to 56) more zombies per turn.

@pudge yes skellies are a joke in a straight up battle with anything (even gnoblars!) but if VC can add to the unit and/ or raise new units in the rear, then its a whole new ball game. i keep the cursed book nearby (-1 to hit in combat) so it swings the battle in my favour.

oh and last weekend in a tournament 1 unit of skellies ran down 2 treemen in consecutive rounds. yes i was very lucky but it goes to show the VC fav of static CR still works.

its a simple tactic that works very well. i find OK an interesting army to face, but VC are built to take down elite MSU forces. we try and bog down your line and pick our fights when we want them (altho it doesnt always come off like that...)

cheers
chris

I might give you some credit, but you'd be amazed (and probably a bit dissappointed) with all those VC players out there who do move within chrage range - or at least think they are out of it and forget about things like longstrider....
As for invocation, they are the only spell I ever bother to dispel against VC unless immediate tactics dictate otherwise (rare) - after all, its the only tactical edge you have.  scroll, scroll and scroll again!   I make as sure as I can that they don't work.

don't forget that cursed book has a very limited range (6") and only effects models in that range, not units clipped by it - and often this means many ogre models are just going to ignore it, given the size of ogre bases.

I'll not say that VC can't win battles, I'll just say that I've faced them over 20 times with ogres and only lost once and let the numbers speak for themselves.

ah longstrider, good times... my brother plays OK.  yes, some VC players think that vamps are un stoppable machines that you just point and shoot. in all my games i think i have only ever had 2 or 3 vamp lords ever actually killed from wounds. but many popped due to CR.  i find VC to be an army that you need discipline and timing. unsupported undead units almost explode vs the living, whereas timed right, they mow down the best of them. 

you were saying that the only tac advantage the VC have was invoke, how do you feel about the magic move? an overlooked spell is the hand of dust in conjunction with the hellish vigour spell. my necro chased a greater daemon around cos 1 hit and it was dead, no ward save (being a daemon). it was absurd. i have almost given up on the 2d6 str 4 hits. never roll well.

the rod of flaming skulls has produced some good results for me. if i see a wounded bull unit away from the general, i target it with this beauty. should see what it does to trolls panic tests ahoy...

cheers
chris

@ rocdocta

i know static combat is where VC really shines. but if the unit is usually at what, 20, you can do about 3-5 wounds a turn, they do like... 1 back? they usually wont have a banner, and u will. they will have like 2 ranks and out number, u have a musician, and u did impact hits. so combat should be yours on the charge turn for sure. the next turn, assuming they got off an invocation of nehek, then it can sway against u. but if you win combat by like 3-4, which you should on the charge turn, they should lose 2 ranks and be down by like 10 or more.

plus, it all depends on A) your army composition and B) theres.

A) i usually run 3 butcher lists, and about 3-4 scrolls now. following bretonnian theories on heavy combat armies.
B) if they have like 3 wizards and a lama thing, then your still in stable shape. an you have scrolls and dispel dice.

maybe its just cause the VC guy i play is a moron and only runs like 2 units of skeletons. and uses them improperly

i find VC to be an army that you need discipline and timing. unsupported undead units almost explode vs the living, whereas timed right, they mow down the best of them. 

totally agree, running dead guys needs absolute discipline timing and I'll add patience to that too

you were saying that the only tac advantage the VC have was invoke, how do you feel about the magic move?
the rod of flaming skulls has produced some good results for me. if i see a wounded bull unit away from the general, i target it with this beauty. should see what it does to trolls panic tests ahoy...

this is where my proviso (unless immediate tactics dictate otherwise) comes in   The magical move can be nasty, and under the right circumstances I'll try to stop that too.  However, I won't always try to stop it.  I do a fair bit of running away and generally I make sure that any unit that might suffer such a charge can run away from it and have a counter charge lined up for it. Basically I take account of the possibility of it in my deployment and movement if my opponent rolled the spell.

It is in the counter/flank charge where MSU ogres shines against undead - If I hit your flanks and deprive you of your rank bonus, you are simply not going to win any combats - you'll have lost a massive chunk of your static CR and when it comes to killing stuff the ogres just do it far better than zombies or skellies.  All I then have to do is keep the invocations off my back and its all good.

the hand of dust/vigor thing is nasty - someone tried it on my tyrant recently, got irresistable force on the vigor and I failed to dispel the hand of dust (this was turn 6 and I'd run out of scrolls) - he hits, but my wyrdstone necklace earned its points back   The vamp then got himself tenderised.  It can work but won't win a battle for you.  In my example, if he'd been successful it would have been his only kill of a 2000 point game.  As it turned out, I killed everything he had and didn't lose a single model doing it...

rod of flaming skulls is even nastier against yhetees - and see's more points go running if its sucessful too.

to sum up though, both VC and OK are close comabt armies - one tries to win through CR, one through kills - and the OK troops with their higher weapon skill, more wounds, more attacks for the frontage, impact hits and immunity to fear (a big VC weapon) are a better comabt troop.  It becomes a battle of breaking the CR of the undead through flanking (yhetees or MSU), rear hits (gorgers) before CR can count agaisnt you - and using the butchers (dispel dice and scrolls) to keep the vamps from adding more troops to conteract your kills.

@pudge with bull charge, do you find it very useful? if i cant charge an ogre unit, i move as close to them as possible to prevent the impact hits. to use an example of a ranked up skellie unit vs the same cost in bulls. i give mine standard and muso, light armour shield hand weapon. maybe the VC around here are different but only new raised units dont have standards. but anyway...

but a disclaimer i dont have the OK army book, 4 bulls with 4 attacks vs 20 skellies with standard and muso.
lets say OK charge.   
with impact hits
16 attacks=11 hits+ 4 impact hits=10 wounds save 4= 6 dead. no skellies strike back now have 14 left
CR
OK 1 standard, 5 wounds = CR7
skellies 1 standard, 3 ranks, outnumber = CR5. lose by 2 and 2 skellie pops

turn 2 is where it gets hard to work out cos an unsupported skellie unit is doomed. but if you put just 1 invoke into it (2d6 =7 average) then the unit is back to where it started. so for intents and purposes i will say that if i cant add to the unit it will pop eventually but lets say that i rolled ok and pull it off...
OK 16 attacks = 11 hits = 7 wounds = 5 dead
OK = 6 CR
skellies = 5 CR

what i am trying to illustrate is that with 2 hand weapons and gaining the bull charge, the ogres are barely managing to hold on against magically supported skellies. from the front. if the ogres stuff 1 round of combat or if a VC heavy hitter arrives, they are in trouble. most VC run 3 casters so there is a good chance of adding to units. this is why i love the cursed book. 

@ wild card totally agree with you. my main atctic vs the OK? sit back on my deployment edge and raise raise raise!

cheers
chris

Ah, sorry I just assumed (herein lies the problem...) that it worked the same way as other multiwound weapons. That'll teach me to be so assertive!

Hey, can a Black Coach absorb enemy power dice?

Yep. Annoying, isn't it...

Yup. Just making sure, thanks.

Mournfangs are the anti-Ghoul unit.

Which lore would people advise in putting on a secondary Butcher against VC?

The lore of the great maw is so useful for augmenting your units that you needent bother, two buthers with such just double their potential and if you can slam your best unit into the vampire generals unit with a thundertusk in support you can munch through his unit to kill themthrough combat res. A horde of skeleton or suck is easily countered with a ogre horde that can still crank of enough attacks to ruin them. It may if you dice are bad or below average take two or three combat phases but, while augmented its only the vampire that can really do anything to the ogre unit.

If you did want to use another lore of magic i recomend the lore or fire with a firebelly due to it destructive potential.

Another suggestion would be Hellheart to try and pop his characters.

Anyone know of a decent way to deal with their new monster (skellydragon or terrorgheist)? I was talking with a VC player and he was excitedly telling me everything they can do, and from what I heard, idk what we have that can deal with those things (especially if they have the vamp lord/ghoul king on them  ).

Another suggestion would be Hellheart to try and pop his characters.

Anyone know of a decent way to deal with their new monster (skellydragon or terrorgheist)? I was talking with a VC player and he was excitedly telling me everything they can do, and from what I heard, idk what we have that can deal with those things (especially if they have the vamp lord/ghoul king on them  ).

IIRC that dragon thing aint so tough.  it can definitely do some damage, but I'm sure it can't take that much.  A few good old fashion IG's should do the job, and then it's just the char left to worry about.

Another suggestion would be Hellheart to try and pop his characters.

Anyone know of a decent way to deal with their new monster (skellydragon or terrorgheist)? I was talking with a VC player and he was excitedly telling me everything they can do, and from what I heard, idk what we have that can deal with those things (especially if they have the vamp lord/ghoul king on them  ).

Just shoot it with an Iblaster

If ogres can survive the charge from blood knights, then they can win against blood knights.  Big units and stubborn.  if you have that against VC in general then you should be fine.

The new Maneaters works wonders against them.  Now at 50 points a pop AND it comes out of our special slot, where blood knights comes out of rare (i think).  Give them poison and stubborn and just have enough IG backing them up.

Only VC lists I can see that could be problematic for us (tourny all comers lists) is a heavy ghouls+raise/hex list or a black bus list.

Terrorgheist is a pain, usually supported by a Varghulf (to allow the gheist to march). They can scream at a unit, they roll 2D6+their remaining wounds (6 to start) and remove your leadership, that's how many wound you take without armour saves allowed. So they roll 13 on average with full wounds, a Stonehorn has Ld8, so it takes 6 wounds. This can very much kill single things like thundertusk, stonehorn, gorger, single characters, sabretusks and is a real pain.

I like using maneaters with brace of pistols with scout and poison and banner of eternal flame. That way they can set up last and are always set up opposite large monsters, such as hydras, abombs and so on. Even the terrorgheist has a 6+ regen which is ignored by these guys.

when I played against VC recently, my IG pretty much walked trough his centre ( wiping out a big unit of skeletons and a horde of ghouls). The only thing I hadn't an answer to was his fully pimped Black Coach; it was a real pain in the ass. I feel like OK don't really have something against "ethereal".

Black coaches are always a real pain, but they can be delt with. The best and easiest option is to bring it down like any old monster before it turns etheral, ironblasters, IG's, manesters, ogre characters with great weapons or sheer wait of numbers in terms of attacks or/and shooting. After it turns etheral then u really have to zapp it with magic or try to win out in combat through combat res (ranks, flank, rear, banner) or if u've got a character with a magic weapon then thump it

Yhetees are also a great option as their attacks are magical

I only went up against a Terrorgheist once but it wasnt very impressive, looks amazing but I took it out with 25 gnoblars.

His rubbish rolls helped lol.

Question though - when it uses its 2d6+wounds-Ld attack is it against the units leadership or can you use the Generals if in range?

If you have to use the units regardless of how close we played it wrong and it is a bit tougher. 

I only went up against a Terrorgheist once but it wasnt very impressive, looks amazing but I took it out with 25 gnoblars.

His rubbish rolls helped lol.

Question though - when it uses its 2d6+wounds-Ld attack is it against the units leadership or can you use the Generals if in range?

If you have to use the units regardless of how close we played it wrong and it is a bit tougher. 

I'd say that the unit uses it's own leadership as the generals leadership can only be used in tests.

Game against Vampire Counts next weekend. Enemy is probably going to throw 2 hordes of ghouls at me so I have 2 units of 6 IG and 1 unit of 10. The biggest unit has got the flame banner and the other smaller one has firebelly and other one has Bragg. So I hope to get to say a quick bye bye to their regeneration banner.
I'll also be fielding a thundertusk and run it with my main attack to make enemy strike the same time as me.
Meanwhile I'll try to sneakily run my Ironblaster to their flank and blow them to tiny pieces of guts.
I also have a slaughtermaster (w/ Maw lore),Tyrant and BSB in my biggest unit hoping to draw some fire.

What do you guys think about this. Would my plan work in any way or should I change up my list a little?
PS. It's a 3000pts game.

I don't think bragg is such a good idea for ANY army, even less against VC.  He's only good in challenges, and the problem with that is a decent VC player won't accept challenges with his characters.  he will accept with his champ, bragg will kill the champ.  Then the VC will raise the champ back (along with few other models) and he will just accept with the champ again.

IF he doesn't have a champ to accept with, then he will just deny and have one of his characters move out of combat.

As far as I'm convinced you should aim to kill VC characters outside of challenges.

I only went up against a Terrorgheist once but it wasnt very impressive, looks amazing but I took it out with 25 gnoblars.

His rubbish rolls helped lol.

Question though - when it uses its 2d6+wounds-Ld attack is it against the units leadership or can you use the Generals if in range?

If you have to use the units regardless of how close we played it wrong and it is a bit tougher. 

Well, that's partly your opponents fault.  25 Gnoblars should never kill it because 25 Gnoblars should never be engaged with it (if he charged the Gnoblars, that was a waste on his part).

I tied my last game with vampire counts. His blood knights ended up not doing much, as Hellheart blew all but 1 away, sucking the Vamp lord into the warp. all of his ghouls were gone, but we tied because he spent an immense amount of points on his grave guard deathstar, and thus I could not kill enough to get the VP difference for a win.

All right, VC is one of the regulars in my gaming club, so I'll share my experiences here. The bog standard VC list usually has reams and reams of Ghouls, a big Horde of Regenerating Grave Guard thanks to their BSB, multiple Vampires (at least one of whom is a L4), a Varghulf, some Wraiths, and a Terrorgheist. Let's address how to deal with these in turn:

Ghouls - Die a horrible, horrible death to Mournfang Cavalry. I've seen 40 of them die to 4 Dragonhide Banner 'fangs in a single turn.

Regenerating Grave Guard - This is the heart of his army, and the best way to rip it out is via fire. They have no real answer for that. Hence, a Firebelly in a big unit of Ironguts (or buffed Bulls) is the way to go. Remember to either combo-charge or bring big numbers in the face of this unit, because they hit really hard and (thanks to the Banner of the Barrows, and/or the Helm of Commandment) they are insanely accurate.

Multiple Vampires - Given that each Vamp is forced to be a caster and that all sorts of nasty things happen to Vampires once the General dies because of their Ld being so bad, the Hellheart is their worst nightmare.

Varghulf - Tough to pin down thanks to his mobility, but at the end of the day he's only a Gorger with above-average WS, Hatred, and Regeneration against us. Put him up against some Ironguts and watch him die.

Terrorgheist - Ironblasters (yes, plural) are a must to deal with this guy, because he can do some serious damage to Ogres with his Shriek, thanks to our mediocre Ld. He is priority #1 to get off the table.

Wraiths - The Dragonhide Banner's breath attack is magical, so Mournfangs with that should handle them. Failing that, have a magic weapon handy.

Vampires' casting strategy can also be tough to deal with on non-Hellheart turns, so just remember that he probably will get something off - just make him work for it. All things considered, though, I think the Vampires are one of our more favorable matchups.

VC is a powerful army in the right hands, but it falls woefully short against Ogres.  Pop Hellheart on the key turn and charge sabre into the crown guy's unit and you can pretty much roll them on the key turn.  They really suffer without their magic to back them up in combat and (if you are like me) wide access to flaming attacks derails one of their best units.  Ghouls can be problematic, if you lack the Cat Cav, but a single butcher in their path is often enough to stuff the whole unit.

One unit Rothgar did not touch on is the combat knight unit, which comes in Bloodknight and Deathknight flavors and often sports three characters.  This unit can be an issue, due to the characters and its general mobility.   Depending on how your army is set up, Ironblasters, Maneater Pistols, or a solo Tyrant might be the order of the day here.

I don't think bragg is such a good idea for ANY army, even less against VC.  He's only good in challenges, and the problem with that is a decent VC player won't accept challenges with his characters.  he will accept with his champ, bragg will kill the champ.  Then the VC will raise the champ back (along with few other models) and he will just accept with the champ again.

IF he doesn't have a champ to accept with, then he will just deny and have one of his characters move out of combat.

As far as I'm convinced you should aim to kill VC characters outside of challenges.

Accepting Bragg's challenge with a champ is a bad idea though since if the champ dies the enemy unit in base contact with him becomes disrupted. Against ogres as VC you have enough troubles keeping up with the combat resolution without losing your static combat res.

Against things that crumble Bragg is actually quite good. Most of undead units dont want to accept the challenge with a character in fear of the HKB. If he accepts with a champ the unit will most probably become disrupted and have a huge overkill score against them. If he declines the more killy character have to move out of combat. Against TK and VC is probably where Bragg shines since they need their combat res.

Against big blocks of skaven it gets even worse.

solo charging heros from Ogres are the biggest cock blocks that can be faced by VC. I solo charged my BSB in a critical turn against a death star of vamps and GG, and stalled that block till the point where his army was smothered and crushed and his star was left floundering at turn 6.