"Gut Hording"

I'll defend 2 Large Blocks and counter against Guthording - if you disagree that's fine... defend your point!

Lets get into what it means to have a Guthorde. 

For Ogre Kingdoms that have monstrous infantry, a 6 wide Horde Rule block requires 16 models for the Horde rule to be used efficiently (16 core models of your choice [Ironguts or Bulls] and then 2 Lords/heroes in there too.  Obviously more heroes is possible, we're just throwing some numbers around) and more if you want to "protect the horde" as I like to call it (protect the Horde Rule by adding additional models to the block so that the wounds that are taken during the time it takes to get to Close Combat do not remove the benefit of having a horde rule, which is a 3rd rank to attack from).  So that's a 6x3 block and at 2,000pts (which is what we play at our Local Hobby Store), Bulls spill over the 500 point core requirement by a small and easily overlooked margin. Ironguts, however, spill over much more than 500 points (by 200 points) and that's not as easily overlooked.

The reason why I am saying easily overlooked is because although our core is great and they really pull their weight and are worth their points, our special and rare selections are just a lot better of a decision.  With Mournfang, Leadbelchers, and Maneaters, as well as the Ironblaster in rare, spending as little in Core as possible is usually a more strategically sound idea.

Our Special and Rare choices are far better choices than our core.  Please don't twist my words; our core is very good and I like them, but I think we can all agree the special choices are better.

So if our Special and Rare choices are preferred over our core, that means we want to spend right at or a little over the minimum requirements in core so that we can spend as much as possible in the other categories.  I would say 100points over in core is understandable (although I try to not over over even 10 points, that's a personal preference.).

So at 2,000points if we want to save our points we spend in core to use in Special and Rare, the Guthorde becomes very difficult to accomplish with only minimum levels reached, which means that Guthorde is weak at 2,000points and lower strictly because of Points, not even gameplay/strategy/tactics.  I mean if you have exactly 18 models in a horde block rule, taking only 3 wounds before close combat starts to chop away at the whole purpose of having a horde rule.

Above 2,000points, such as 'Ard Boyz 3,000points, Guthorde is a lot easier to achieve in a manner of speaking raw points.  You can put 3 or 4 hero/lord selections in the block and fill it up to 18 Ironguts and spill over just a little in Core.  So 2,250, 2,500, and 3,000 are all more viable options for the Horde Rule when we are talking strictly points.

But then that leads us into the problems of the Guthorde on the tabletop - a large target that screams to be misdirected, spells thrown at it, and flank charge situations.

I can easily hop, skip, and dance around one large horde block until I am ready to deal with it and prevent it from being able to do what it does best - SMASH!

Using chaff units alone would cause a lot of pain for that one big block! And if my opponent decides to attack my chaff/redirector units with fireballs, cannons, leadbelchers, and maneaters with Brace of Handguns, all the more better! I would love to spend 21 points to stop any of those from attacking the more important models in my army.

So either kill the chaff units with all those scary attacks to free up the big block or delay the block and use those abilities for their intended targets.


So what do you all think?  Agree, disagree? 


P.S. I got rushed when writing this and I'll comeback and modify accordingly

Ah the trouble with a horde is you can redirect it...so what about two hordes? I've been pondering a two horde army like this:

L4 Maw SM - CoC, TalisEndurance, Biting Blade, DS
BsB - TalisPres, WarriorBane
L2 Firebelly - Hellheart

15 Guts - FC, StdDisc
37 Gnoblars - Muso
14 ME - FC, Stubborn/Poison, Flaming, 3 w/ BoP, 3 w/GW
3 Sabres

To begin with, 14 Ironguts with Full Command and the Standard of Discipline comes in at just over minimum Core in 2500 points. Throw in a BSB, general, and 2 support casters and you're at a damned nice horde.

It can be redirected, and often will be. That's what magic missiles, Leadbelchers, and Ironblasters are for, to an extent. With the exception of High Elves and Beastmen, there just is not enough chaff to keep a M6 horde tied up indefinitely.

Having a bigger unit is, in and of itself, protection for said unit, and each buff becomes stronger. It's yet to fail me in a serious manner but I do not exactly have a perfect record with the build.

My list is posted somewhere in the Armies of the Kingdom, but it is effectively this:

SM, level 4, minimal gear
BSB, Rune Maw
2 Firebellies, level 1, set up for anti-magic
14 IGs, Full Command, SoD
2 units of 4 Mournfangs
3 Sabertusks
2 Ironblasters

Everything is coming for you, put simply, and there's not much that most opponents can do to deal with it. When the "soft units" are Mournfangs, things aren't fun for an opponent.

I'd like to point out that VC can also put out metric truckloads of chaff as well - but otherwise, I'm mostly in agreement with Gralph. Do you have to be cognizant of the Guthorde's weaknesses? You sure do, otherwise you might not see a relevant combat with it all game. I do think that (with judicious play) it can be a successful strategy, though.

That said, I'm definitely favoring the double big Core style as far as the "most competitive build" goes, though. It's a more versatile build, and if you get a combo charge it can hit damn hard while presenting you with a solid frontage of nothing but characters and champs to allocate attacks against. Mighty indeed.

I like to kit out my characters pretty heavily and put them in the front row to soak up damage. I then nearly always challenge with the champ to take him out of combat. I basically always run:

8 Ironguts (rows of 3) + General + firebelly
10 bulls (rows of 4) + BSB + firebelly

These two units are not to be fucked around with! :-)

My problem with two medium/large units instead of the gut horde is that you can get blown through by good combat units.  Not much will stand to a gut horde and if they are not in horde just reform and go deep.  Also you are ogres you should be dealing with redirectors with character charges and sabre tusks

I would agree with you in a vacuum, but the way the big Core unit strategy gets around that is by putting up a frontage of nothing but characters and unit champs to limit the CR you can score against them (plus one of the characters is probably carrying the Stubborn hat).

My vote would be for bus. The horde footprint is just too unwieldy. I can also block back ranks with characters if i want to. The slightly better strength impact hits from deeper ranks is a nice bonus too.

Also you are ogres you should be dealing with redirectors with character charges and sabre tusks

Sorry, what do you mean by character charges?

My vote would be for bus. The horde footprint is just too unwieldy. I can also block back ranks with characters if i want to. The slightly better strength impact hits from deeper ranks is a nice bonus too.

Keep in mind, every trick a bus can do, a horde can do as well, and swift/combat reforms allow you to adapt to battlefield situations. While you will never have as many units with a Guthorde as you would running MMU, it's a lot harder to lose the horde.

I am still a big MMU fan.

I am okay with two main Core blocks if I bring a bunch of special units to give me the extra threats but I really dislike the Gutstart/Guthorde. While playing about a month back I had someone comment that my opponent's two big Hordes could walk over any one of my 7 Ogre core units and what would I do about that. He charged my IG with the Firebelly inside and I said, "Ok, I flee."

At this point the spectator laughed and shook his head. My opponent redirected to a LONG charge as I had a Sabertusk I didn't quite have enough movement to block the first charge with that would have left him in trouble if he charged that instead. He of course failed the charge with 5 and 1 and so had to move forward. I was then able to declare a flank charge around my own Saber and long charge with the other unit. Both made it in, the Ironguts rallied, and I smooshed the unit.

His other big horde did come in and stomp one of my Bull units but then stopped almost right in front of the other and I could still see like a 1/4" of the unit with my charge arc. IG and remaining Bulls charged and pounded his other big horde and it was pretty much game over.

There is one trick a Horde can't pull that MMU can.

Mercules makes a very good point there - it's a bit easier to dictate terms with the double-Core block than it is with the Guthorde, because fleeing with a unit is a more acceptable risk (aka you don't lose the game if you fail). This can be important for pulling people out of position and then exploiting it with your other Core block.

Another nasty trick that this sort of army can do is carry lots of Stubborn and hit people in waves, which an excellent counter-move to losing the initiative and getting charged. I think that having 2 rock-solid fighting units with characters in them makes for a stronger and more flexible army overall, though it cannot be denied that when the Gutstar works, it smashes people.

If you are interested in hordes and want to see some in action, it might be interesting to open Youtube and search for MrMalorian. I know he plays mostly orcs, but really the armies are close to each other in this configuration. For about a year now, his O&G army has been composed of : 50 Savage Orc Big Uns with AHW, 50 Black Orcs, 40+ Squigs, 100+ Night Goblins, some chaff and characters here and there. The arguments given for that kind of army were about the same as Gralph's : those units are unstoppable, my Horde of Savage Orcs will ruin everything (Ironguts included btw), etc.

His tournament result have been, as he confessed lately, completely bipolar. Either he smashes everything he faces and gets massacres, or things go completely wrong and he fails horribly. Of course when you are missing two easy charges in a row with one of your three units, or when you roll terribly in combat for two turns, or when you fail one Ld9 rerollable panic check, you are toasted. The conclusions of his batreps are often that even if it should almost always work, there was often something that did not work as planned (see the examples above). And with horde armies, if something go wrong, you lose a huge part of your army and it often means the game.

He also lately confessed how boring it was to play. His defeats were not pleasant ; basically one or two rolls went wild and there was nothing he could have done to prevent it. His victories weren't fun either, because that's probably when everything went right and he basically just rolled dices and watch his opponents remove models.

TLDR ; I've seen competent generals argue it was the ultimate option, fail multiple times and get bored quickly. My conclusion is that it's fun to play once in a while, but it isn't more reliable than balanced tactics, and is both boring to play with and against in the long run. Like Dwarves for example

The arguments given for that kind of army were about the same as Gralph's : those units are unstoppable, my Horde of Savage Orcs will ruin everything (Ironguts included btw), etc.

Just cutting the post short here.

The SOBU horde is one of the ones I'm slightly worried about, matchup-wise, and it requires some decent buffing before you jump into combat.  Luckily, you're taking the Lore of the Maw and can reform to present nothing but T5 characters if you so desire, etc.

That said, it's entirely true that it's a win-big, lose-big, and somewhat boring game.  If your opponent has a harder horde or other counter, or if he manages to slip a big nasty spell through your defenses, or if you flub a round really badly, you're going to lose.  Barring that, though, you will win, and handily.

Is it fun to play?  That's not something I can answer for you.  I enjoy the playstyle far more than I did the MSU crap Ogres were stuck with before, and I don't really see Ogre tribes subdividing into units as particularly fluffy.  But if you have the same thoughts as Malorian, then sure, switch it up.  Anything gets boring if repeated enough.