How many guts is too many?

I was looking to make a deathstar and have it horde formation, I plan on a SM, tyrant, bruiser bsb, butcher, and firebelly the question is should I run 13 or19 IG the point value 3k list

That really depends on what else you're putting in the army, but as a general rule, if you're going Guthorde, spend the entire 25% on that single unit.

In other words, you're probably going to be better off closer to 19, but not necessarily that number exactly.

18 bulls if you are planning on playing t3 opponents(vamps, TK empire, elves, skaven and goblins) whether to take ironfists of the extra weapon is totally up to you.

18 iron guts if you are playing anything else(brettonians, dwarfs, orcs, beastmen, ogres, lizardmen, warriors of chaos and daemons.)

The reason for 19 is because 19 IG + 5 Char. = 24 or 4 even ranks of 6

The reason for 19 is because 19 IG + 5 Char. = 24 or 4 even ranks of 6

Completely understood, but remember, full ranks just mean a prettier unit, not necessarily a more effective one.

Start off by spending 25% of your points on the unit, then go ahead and take other things.  Then, once the army is more or less finished, you can add more models to the Guthorde.

19-22

but as a general rule, if you're going Guthorde, spend the entire 25% on that single unit.

Just to add on to this, here's some quicky math.

First of all, 3,000 point list. 25% - 750 points to spend.

If you do Ironguts, 18 of them makes 774pts (just over 25%, not including any magic banner or command). If you factor in the full command (30pts.) and a possible banner (let's just go with a 50-pt. one for sake of example), to get around 750 you would be looking at either 15-16 Ironguts (15=725, 16=768). If you're looking at 19 Ironguts with FC & a 50-pt. banner (again for example), that's 897pts., or nearly a third of your points! Go big or go home, amiright?

If you choose to do Bulls, again, let's look at 'em naked (er... let's not... that's a horrifying thought... ANYways) 25 Bulls would make exactly 750 points. Now, adding FC and, let's say, Ironfists, you're looking more at 22-23 Bulls (22=734, 23=768).

So, your horde would be much larger with Bulls, but of course that comes with the price of having to buff them in most situations to really get some gusto. Plus, after a certain size it doesn't really contribute much to the horde to have more (I mean, if you did go 23 Bulls with characters, you're looking at 4 ranks in a horde, and that last rank wouldn't even get to attack!).

However, focusing back on Ironguts, 16-17 would be good around 25% for the "rule of thumb", but since you're going big or going home anyways, making it 19 and having the characters make the extra rank would be alright. Just remember that the fourth rank wouldn't get to add their attacks in, and are basically just extra meat to allow for the maximum attacks for longer. So, idk. There's a video in the feed of some guy with 60 bulls in a horde (it was a 10k game, though ), so it is entirely up to you.

Hope I helped just a wee bit!

How many guts is too many?

  I don't understand the question....

How many guts is too many?

  I don't understand the question....

Indeed...

but as a general rule, if you're going Guthorde, spend the entire 25% on that single unit.

Just to add on to this, here's some quicky math.

First of all, 3,000 point list. 25% - 750 points to spend.

If you do Ironguts, 18 of them makes 774pts (just over 25%, not including any magic banner or command). If you factor in the full command (30pts.) and a possible banner (let's just go with a 50-pt. one for sake of example), to get around 750 you would be looking at either 15-16 Ironguts (15=725, 16=768). If you're looking at 19 Ironguts with FC & a 50-pt. banner (again for example), that's 897pts., or nearly a third of your points! Go big or go home, amiright?

If you choose to do Bulls, again, let's look at 'em naked (er... let's not... that's a horrifying thought... ANYways) 25 Bulls would make exactly 750 points. Now, adding FC and, let's say, Ironfists, you're looking more at 22-23 Bulls (22=734, 23=768).

So, your horde would be much larger with Bulls, but of course that comes with the price of having to buff them in most situations to really get some gusto. Plus, after a certain size it doesn't really contribute much to the horde to have more (I mean, if you did go 23 Bulls with characters, you're looking at 4 ranks in a horde, and that last rank wouldn't even get to attack!).

However, focusing back on Ironguts, 16-17 would be good around 25% for the "rule of thumb", but since you're going big or going home anyways, making it 19 and having the characters make the extra rank would be alright. Just remember that the fourth rank wouldn't get to add their attacks in, and are basically just extra meat to allow for the maximum attacks for longer. So, idk. There's a video in the feed of some guy with 60 bulls in a horde (it was a 10k game, though ), so it is entirely up to you.

Hope I helped just a wee bit!

I'd actually go with the 16 number to just give you the 25% (rather than the go big or go home approach).  Since the 4th rank doesn't get to attack, you're basically just adding meat shields at that point.  But regardless, we're talking about a horde of ironguts which equals overkill anyway.  You don't need the extra guys to be a super strong unit that few can defeat and fewer would try.  Indeed, most strategies against hordes focus on avoiding the horde, until several units can charge at the same time from multiple angles.  To counter this, you need other units that can protect a horde's weaknesses; and with that in mind, I'd go as close to the minimum points on the horde, whether that's IG or Bulls, and use the rest of your points to round out the list.