How exactly does one correctly use Sabretusks to redirect?

Hey guys

As the topic suggests, I'm having trouble with understanding using my Sabretusks to redirect. While I've been playing 40k for many years, I'm new to Warhammer Fantasy, so the movement phase is particularly hard to get used to .

So. My Ogre army is continuing to expand. I recently picked up some Sabretusks, having read on these forums just how useful they are. I've read a few different threads on how to use them to redirect, but after trying it in a game I'm just a bit unclear on some areas.

I understand that I should be using their facing to 'aim' my opponents units to where I want them to go. This part is not a problem. So I march up my lone Sabretusk and place it at a good angle... but after that, I'm not exactly sure what my goal is here. The threads I have read seem to have an assumed understanding of what to do after the fact

What do I do when the Sabretusk is charged? Is it supposed to declare a flee reaction? Is it supposed to hold and be killed? It seems unlikely that the goal is to have it to lose combat but live, and then flee, since that is highly unpredictable. I also understand that the general goal of this maneuver is to set up the enemy unit for a followup charge, ideally in the flank. What sort of ranges should I be working with? Such as, the Sabertusk should be around x" in front of the unit of ogres you're setting up. Is there anything I need to be particularly careful about?

If there is anything else I'm missing, please feel free to add in your thoughts and additional tips. So far, even without the redirecting, I liked the 2 Sabretusks I ran a lot. Just for the cheap deployments to force my opponent to give his plan away if nothing else! On top of that they're quite nasty little fellers themselves.

It's supposed to flee. It should mean that the charging unit is then pulled out of position exposing a flank for you to charge in your next turn. When working things out always remember that the average roll on 2D6 is 7, so you can work with a 13" charge on average.

In terms of the Sabertusk you want them to be close enough to the unit you want to charge it so that they can't move to avoid it without doing a full reform. You don't want them to be able to wheel around it so you'll be sat right in front of the unit and the angle you want.

I never flee with 'tusks. They are only leadership 4 and can't use the generals leadership due to the "their masters voice" rule. I do the following mostly:

Place your redirector as close as possible to the enemy unit but turn it so that 60% of the unit is in the front of the redirector. It will LOOK like you are giving a flank BUT as the majority of the unit is in the front of the redirector it is a font charge. To make the charge they have to turn the whole unit on a 90 degree angle.

I'll attempt to show it:

E E E E E
E E E E E
E E E E E
E E E E E
            <-
       

The front of the arrow is the head of the tusk. As three out of five in the unit are in his front arc it is a FRONT charge. The unit must wheel 90 and lock in with him. Handy as heck for setting up charges.

I often explain this when I set up the model in the right position. This way no one is caught unaware when he thinks he has a flank and ends up with a front charge that puts him wildly out of position.

Yes he should bust head on the tusk and could just take a combat reform but best case scenario is you should be guaranteed a front charge. Fleeing means they only move the lowest die on the charge and you have effectively lost the tusk. With this technique at least he has a chance to kill something first

There are actually two options:

 The standard option is to place the sabretusk in a way that the opposing unit has to charge the sabretusk, but also that it has to align so that there is no unit the the overrun path. Once the opponent annihilates the tusk, he is given the choice between overrunning (which usually brings him out of position) and free reforming. The goal is not necessarily to get a flank charge, but either to get a charge at all or even just to delay him for a turn. In this case, you cannot decleare a flee reaction, since this would allow the opposing unit to simply redirect his charge directly (passed ld-test notwithstanding)

 The second option is called a double-flee trap. This requires two sabres. Both have to be positioned so that the opposing unit cannot charge anything but them. He decleares charge against the first tusk, you choose flee. When he then redirects into the second tusk, you flee again, leaving him with hopefully a failed charge.

It is not supposed to flee. Fleeing simply means your opponent makes a Leadership test and then redirects upon another target.

The way Sabretusks are used to slow down your opponent is to place them right smack in front of your opponent in a way that should they declare a charge on another unit they would not be able to complete it as the Sabretusk would be in the way. Instead they are forced to sit there and do very little, Swift reform and go around the Sabretusk, or charge the Sabretusk.

The third option is what most people do. Obviously most units will destroy the Sabretusk(except Goblin Wolf Riders, they keep failing fear and I run them down) and then have an option of Reforming or Overrunning. Because of this you want the angle that they would overrun to not take them into your troops and to expose their flank so that won't want to take that option. Instead they will reform and have gone a total of 1" forward.

Why do this? you ask. The point is to move your troops into position to charge them, which often means they can risk a long charge on you, then put the Sabretusk in there to prevent them charging you. Then you will be the one getting the charge, with the impact hits and CR bonus. This also lets us get very close to ensure a charge, without getting charged in return.

Another use for this is to slow down a unit we don't want coming in on our flank after we engaged another unit, or to slow it down so we can throw magic or shooting at it for another turn.

Here are some slides I made to Illustrate redirecting with Sabretusks. My example uses a frenzied enemy but the principal is the same ragerdless of Frenzy or not.

Everyone pretty much nailed it.  Essentially if you want to protect your units from getting charged or slow down an enemy unit, you put the tusk up close to the enemy at a weird angle and then hold and get killed.  this will prevent your important unit from getting charged and when the enemy combat reforms, it will keep part of his line backed up.

You can also use them to pull units out of position.  This is much harder to do but when it works it is great.  The double tusk is a more reliable way of doing this but essentially you flee from the charge and force them to redirect then hope they either fail the redirect or the 2nd charge. 

There have more uses than that though and these two are my favorite.  First one i developed from playing with empire.  What you do is put a sabertusk head on in front of an enemy unit a few inches away so that either they have to charge it or hold that unit back in the line.  The goal here is to get an excited player who charges the sabertusk and overruns into your line.  This will cause him to leapfrog away from his line and be engaged with on of your units, and then another unit from your line can flank charge him and you will negate his charge bonus be in his flank and still get impact hits.  It requires certain things in your army to be sure but it is something that even above average players might miss out on in an effort to get into combat with you

The best thing they can do though is let one of your units fight twice in a turn.  If an enemy is staggered so that on overrun would let you contact a second unit, you charge the first with something mean like mournefangs and the second with a lone sabertusk.  When combat comes around you resolve the mournefang combat first, win and overrun into the second unit.  Your mournefangs can now go again because it is an unresolved combat from earlier and hopefully break that unit too.

All that being said i generally use Kratons method of getting up close at a weird angle, holding, and dieing.  Its the most reliable thing to do with them and helps you slow down the enemey army so you can set up charges of your own.  But feel free to try more complicated things with them, especially against unwitting generals.

The best thing they can do though is let one of your units fight twice in a turn.  If an enemy is staggered so that on overrun would let you contact a second unit, you charge the first with something mean like mournefangs and the second with a lone sabertusk.  When combat comes around you resolve the mournefang combat first, win and overrun into the second unit.  Your mournefangs can now go again because it is an unresolved combat from earlier and hopefully break that unit too.

I thought that units could only fight once per turn? Don't have the BRB with me, so I may be mistaken, but I thought that, even if they overrun into fresh enemy they don't fight. (May be thinking of running into an entirely new combat, and not one that is already happening.)

Also, Grey Templar's illustrations should be stickied because it explains it perfectly in every way. the only improvement I would make is showing all the redirecting options. Thank you for this illustration and I'm sure that all players, new and old, will be very grateful for you clarifying this. Because of this, have a Gnoblar for your time, effort, and simple yet informative illustration.

If a unit overruns into another unit that was unegaged at the start of the combat phase then no combat is fought.

However, if a unit overruns into another unit that was engaged at the begining of the close combat phase and that combat has not yet been resolved this turn, then it gets to fight again.  At the end of that combat, if it wins, the only action it may declare is reform. 

Because during your turn you dictate the order of combat, this strategy is possible.

Thank you Frankanelli, I will be sure to use this strategy at some point! 

The best thing they can do though is let one of your units fight twice in a turn.  If an enemy is staggered so that on overrun would let you contact a second unit, you charge the first with something mean like mournefangs and the second with a lone sabertusk.  When combat comes around you resolve the mournefang combat first, win and overrun into the second unit.  Your mournefangs can now go again because it is an unresolved combat from earlier and hopefully break that unit too.

I thought that units could only fight once per turn? Don't have the BRB with me, so I may be mistaken, but I thought that, even if they overrun into fresh enemy they don't fight. (May be thinking of running into an entirely new combat, and not one that is already happening.)

Also, Grey Templar's illustrations should be stickied because it explains it perfectly in every way. the only improvement I would make is showing all the redirecting options. Thank you for this illustration and I'm sure that all players, new and old, will be very grateful for you clarifying this. Because of this, have a Gnoblar for your time, effort, and simple yet informative illustration.

I actually have 2 more slides but I can only post 5 pictures max per post.

Here are the last 2.

Here's another thread on the topic as well: http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=23998.0

It has a few more examples, explainations, and sketches (although none as fine as grey templar's, bravo!).

Thanks guys, those explanations are awesome, particularly grey templar's slides. Like I was saying, most of the concepts between GW games are pretty easy to pick up, but this one is more unique and just wasn't clicking for me. I have a completely clear picture of how this works now.

I also hadn't really thought of using it as a delaying tactic (as in 40k you have 360 degree vision, it's almost irrelevent where units end up, and there's no overrun either). The tactic of using sabretusks to create an extra combat for another unit to overrun into and fight again is also gold.

A question about using a strategy of having them flee rather than hold - doesn't this run the risk of causing panic tests nearby? Particularly if you're trying to us two tusks for some of the tactics brought up, as they can't use the general's ld?

Yeah, Sabretusks can cause panic.

Fortunantly they can still perform their job while remaining over 6" away from your other units and each other.

M8 does have its advantages.

Bear in mind that although most units will charge, kill, and reform (so only delaying for a turn), frenzied units (and I see a lot of them around these days due to the damage potential) *must* overrun - so setting up that delicious flank charge becomes all the easier!

Thanks guys, those explanations are awesome, particularly grey templar's slides. Like I was saying, most of the concepts between GW games are pretty easy to pick up, but this one is more unique and just wasn't clicking for me. I have a completely clear picture of how this works now.

I also hadn't really thought of using it as a delaying tactic (as in 40k you have 360 degree vision, it's almost irrelevent where units end up, and there's no overrun either). The tactic of using sabretusks to create an extra combat for another unit to overrun into and fight again is also gold.

A question about using a strategy of having them flee rather than hold - doesn't this run the risk of causing panic tests nearby? Particularly if you're trying to us two tusks for some of the tactics brought up, as they can't use the general's ld?

They don't actually cause a panic test when they flee, as long as they don't run through another model. They only cause panic if they are destroyed within 6 inches of another unit (or break from combat I think). just stagger the tusks and you should be good to go.