Why does everyone like the Rune Maw?

After reading quite a few of the posts regarding tactics and army lists, I couldn't help but notice alot of folks here seem to love the Rune Maw.  Why?

Yes, in the previous codex, it was a vital, must-take item.  But in the new codex, it's substantially more expensive, and it's gives the choice of targets to the opponent, rather than the ogre player.  It doesn't affect AoE or wandering templates, either.  Yes, it allows you to protect a death-star unit.  However, it does so at the price of some other unit (probably an expensive one, since there's virtually no other type in the ogre book) taking it in the shorts.  And yes, it's occasionally possible for no other unit to be in range, thus resulting in a wasted spell, but in order to do that, the protected death-star must be alone and unsupported by the rest of the army, and even death-stars can go down when ganged-up on.  Plus, intentionally maintaining such a situation is very restrictive of your maneuvering.

I was just wondering if people accepted such limitations, or if they'd found some wrinkle I hadn't in it's use.

When your list relies on a death star then you run the runemaw, because even if the spell bounces to a different unit, as long as it is not hitting your deathstar with 3 characters in it you're still ok.  It's very usefull against death sniping spells if all your characters are in the same unit.

When you are running a MSU/MMU list then the runemaw doesn't really help that much.  If a spell bounces from 1 MMU unit to the next it's still going to hit a main unit, but with MMU not 1 unit is your all-in must save unit and you can afford to lose 1 or 2.

Thats basically it.

It also eliminates the pressure from smaller annoying spells and lets you concentrate on the bigger ones that you can't bounce. 

You basically immunize yourself from Hexs and Direct Damage spells. So you only have to worry about Vortices.

And remember that if there isn't another viable target the spell simply fails. So if the deathstar is the only unit in range then you arn't even taking the heat elsewhere.

I only use runemaw on rare occasions - I like to bunker my BSB in the 2nd rank & give him the crown of command, so I rarely field it.

does the runemaw effect your own buff spells?

does the runemaw effect your own buff spells?

FAQ made it so it only bounces enemy spells.  So our buff spells still work on the Runemaw unit.

Only trade off is that your bsb does the carrying so might well be unprotected and vulnerable.

Generally though you're taking the Rune Maw because you have a death star so it shouldn't be hard to have him hidden in the second rank.

I don't run a deathstar anymore in 8th so I tend to save the points.

I am not a fan of the deathstar setup, but I have tried it on my BSB in the maneater unit occasionally.  Its pretty solid, but you more or less have to accept that the BSB is going to take it in the pooper against hard hitters, even if you bunker him back a row, since most units will take down something in front of him and force him into play.  I personally think its better in a shooting list, since getting pounded by pit of shades is a serious frequent theat in that situation that Rune Maw is excellent to defend against.  I personally would not bother with it in a combat list, since the BSB tends to get exposed to risk more frequently and you only really need the two turn window that the Hellheart gives you, anyhow.

I personally would not bother with it in a combat list, since the BSB tends to get exposed to risk more frequently and you only really need the two turn window that the Hellheart gives you, anyhow.

Echoing my thoughts.

Put simply, the Rune Maw applies a large degree of protection to a Guthorde or similar, allowing you to retain their points until the end of the game, and therefore letting you beat the enemy over the head with really big honkin' clubs.

In other horrible analogy, Rune Maw gives your Rock a liberal coating of anti-Paper awesomeness. 

If the spells hit another one of my units, so what?  My other units aren't 1500 points of beatdown and I can afford to lose some Mournfangs before combat.

The main thing for me is this.

Ogres dominant CC and movement.  The only things that stop this are hexes, test or die spells and augments.

By protecting a key unit I can maintain the advantage in cc and movement by simply making sure I dispel the right augments. 

My opponent throwing -3 strength at my sniping man eaters is whatever, but throwing that on a combat block could be disastrous.

Rune Maw only really protects against a specific set of spells, though.  Someone running Shadow, the most common lore out there, can still rock your world with Mind Razor.  Someone with Heavens or Life can basically ignore it while they buff the crap out of their own units.  Vortexes don't target anything and neither does Comet.  Basically, a good stubborn unit can power through a round of bad debuffs, assuming the Hellheart does not shut that down.  The Maw in a shooting army is a lot better, because people can debuff your shooters with Miasma or Ice Shard and/or drop Pit on them from a good distance.  And frankly, unless your army is a giant Deathstar orbitted by a couple Sabers and Ironblasters, a rebounded Pit or Debuff is still going to hurt something of value.

Phazael, the one thing you missed in your analyses is lore of fire. An upgraded fireball against a troll-gutted guthorde/deathstar can really hurt.

I agree with that, to an extent. Still, if the worst the Lore can do to you is make 2 Ogres go poof on average, I'll take those odds over Pit of Shades ripping 2/3 of my unit out of existence.

Actually, the big fireball (or flame cage) would not even begin to dent a typical Ogre Deathstar, trollguts or not.  The spells that concern me far more are Burning Head (reclassified by FAQ into psuedo vortex template, ala Pendulum) and Flaming Sword of Ruin.  Neither of those spells care about the Rune Maw.  But for the sake of argument, here is a breakdown of the commonly used lores at events and how I see Runemaw affecting them:

Shadow-
Pendulumn and Mind Razor will just ignore the Runemaw entirely, but you can deflect Pit and all the debuffs.  Its a good benefit, but simply being stubborn can offset the impact of debuffs in certain ways.  Most common lore, so you get to avoid a lot of debuffs, but most armies designed around Shadow tend to have full access to the entire lore.

Light-
Absolutely no effect on the lore, apart from diverting the largely pointless magic missiles.  It will not even stop Phas from hurting a shooting army.

Heavens-
It will keep you from being affected by Curse of the Midnight Wind and stop the magic missle spells, but does not really affect any of the key elements of the lore.

Death-
Stops everything but the PSun, which is all any non Ogre list takes it for anyhow.

Skaven Lores-
Stops Warp Lightning and the Toughness, but plague does not target the secondary units and we are already immune to 13th anyhow.  Every other spell basically ignores the Runemaw.  Kind of a non issue since most skaven magic is crap against Ogres, anyhow.

Mortal Lore of Tzeench-
Stops Gateway and Flickinging Fire, but not Panadmonium or most anything he can lob back at you with 3rd eye shennanigans.  Does stuff treason, so basically this becomes a game of 6 dice Pandamonium every turn.  Probably the best argument in favor of the Maw, aside from Pit of Shades.

Life-
You stop Dwellers and one magic missile.  You do not stop +4 Toughness, Shield of Thorns, Regrowth, or Regeneration.   Not terribly helpful here, really.

Fire-
The damaging spells in fire were never really going to bother an Ogre Deathstar, anyhow.  The panic test from a Burning Head and getting facerolled by something with Flaming Sword are much larger concerns.

Lore of Beasts-
Stuffing Curse is nice and nullifiy two ranged spells, but Maw basically has no effect on the serious meat of this lore.

Vamps-
Not that any Ogre ever cared about Curse of Years or Gaze of Nagash, but you do get to stop these spells.  The rest of the lore is all buffs and raising, so Maw Banner really has no impact here in most cases.

So basically, if your local meta includes a lot of Pit of Shades or Infernal Gateway action, the Maw is probably going to appeal a lot more to you.  If your field involves a lot of Lizardmen or other armies that focus on buffs, it kind of a waste.  Its effect is strongest against Lore of Shadow and Mortal Tzeench, but those lores still pack powerful spells that can seriously screw over an Ogre army that ignore the banner.  I still think a gunline army with a central deathstar bunker is the best application for this banner.

A key thing though is this, as you pointed out it usually stops all but about 2 spells per lore.  This means your opponent's tactical options become much more limited.  Someone with lore of fire really only has 2 spells to lob at you, if you stop that then you have nothing to fear from the lore.

Between your dispel dice and scroll you can ensure safe passage of your main force to the enemy line (short of IF).  And once that main block is in combat you've won 1/2 the battle with ogres.

The other thing to consider is that if there isn't another valid target for the spell, it gets stopped completely.

So if your Guthorde is the only valid target, nothing happens on 2+. No collateral damage or anything.

Even viewing it from that perspective, all you've done is make sure that your opponent either trades some of the weaker pinging spells out, or that he spends his dice elsewhere. I usually run out of dice before I run out of spells to cast.

I tried it twice (vs Skavens & Lizardmen). I haven't rolled the dice to bounce a spell once in these two battles, and god did I miss my Crown of Command 3+/parry BSB that can go in the front rank. So I'm receptive to Phazael's arguments.

What has long stopped me to use it, is that basically if your opponent has no or few offensive magic, you spend 60 pts for a useless item and leave your BSB very vulnerable. And it has happened to me more often than what Internet thinks (dwarves, life/khorne daemons, light/life empire/lizardmen/wood elves/brets, beasts bestmen/bretonnia, ...). It's fantastic if your opponent uses Shadow or Death, it's pretty meh otherwise.

So at the end I think that it is indeed a beautiful item, but you have to sacrifice a lot of things for it. It's the kind of item that you don't take randomly on a character to make it better, you have to plan your entire strategy around it. Is that worth it ? Maybe, but I'm not convinced.

What has long stopped me to use it, is that basically if your opponent has no or few offensive magic, you spend 60 pts for a useless item and leave your BSB very vulnerable. And it has happened to me more often than what Internet thinks (dwarves, life/khorne daemons, light/life empire/lizardmen/wood elves/brets, beasts bestmen/bretonnia, ...). It's fantastic if your opponent uses Shadow or Death, it's pretty meh otherwise.

This may be me, but I will gladly pay 60 points for something to make me not have to deal with Dwellers.  Life seems to be more common than Shadows locally, but even then, I'll gladly take the chance not to lose 1/3 of my unit (and my characters, mind you) to a single casting of that spell.

So at the end I think that it is indeed a beautiful item, but you have to sacrifice a lot of things for it. It's the kind of item that you don't take randomly on a character to make it better, you have to plan your entire strategy around it. Is that worth it ? Maybe, but I'm not convinced.

Put it this way:  if you have the build for it (Gutstar), it's pretty much mandatory.  If you don't, then you won't need it.

It sounds like you're in agreement, and I'll throw in my opinion there for spice. If you're putting a lot of eggs in one basket, the Rune Maw (along with a Stubborn hat) will keep that investment protected. If you're spreading the love a bit, you don't need it.

I personally run a MMU list most of the time (or MSU ) so I have no need for a 60 point item that leaves my BSB out in the cold.

1 massive combat unit = Runemaw pretty much mandatory
2-3 medium combat units with smaller backup units = not much use for Runemaw

But at what step do you define the level where its really needed. A very standard build is the SM in Ironguts with BSB.

Thats your 2 main characters in the unit but it might only be 10 IG's with them.

Would it be worth it to protect this unit with the Rune maw? or would protection for the bruiser be a better option?

I tried it again in a 3k+750 SoM game with a horde of Ogres. I told myself : can't ever be useless there ! Then Purple Sun came.