Using your Leadbelchers: Charge or shoot?

Yup, always round up.

Have to agree. Shoot first! Then shoot some more! If your worried about the lances S bonus. Blast away. Your not gonna get a better shot at killing them than a -2 as. And if your LB's are sitting in front a a ranked CoK's unit....you boy did sumfin wrong!!!!!!.....

Move backwards 1" so you are still within short range. Fire. Hope the enemy fails its charge. Back up 3", shoot again. Repeat. Make sure your opponent checks for panic every round from being a Dark Elf pincushion. (assuming the casualties are enough to do so)

Shooting gives you 0% chance of loosing any wounds on your turn.

Agree with Darkminion.  Step back and shoot.  Might buy you a second turn of shooting as well.

I have used Leadbelchers in every game so far but won't field them without units of Gnoblars (Trapper upgraded) to support them.

The -2 to enemy armour saves vs. Leadbelcher shooting is far better than getting the Leadbelchers into combat (-1 to enemy AS).

The Gnoblars are out front and prevent enemy troops charging the Leadbelchers until you decide to commit the Leadbelchers to combat if an advantageous opportunity arises.

I would tend to look for flank/rear charges if committing the Leadbelchers to close combat.

The Belchers can also fire over the Gnoblars if necessary.

I wouldn't field the Leadbelchers in units of  less than 6 unless adding a character.

Agree with all the step back and shoot posters.  Depending on their move you've got a chance to get a second shot off if they fail to charge you.

I agree with the move back and shoot (at least, 1/2 " back so I'm still close range and they need a good charge roll).  If they are knights and I'm pretty sure they're getting the charge regardless, then I'll position my unit to redirect their charge and shoot in close range; moving back 3" would decrease their charge chance but since a 6 or 7 will be rolled more often than not, I want every shot to count.  There are very few situations where I might charge.

Majority rules,shoot.

For me, it's always shoot with 2 exceptions:

1) If I have another unit that is in range also, I do not delay the charge of the other unit in order to get off an extra round of shooting. In this case, charge with both units.
2) The unit I am charging is a strong shooting unit. It would be hard for me to dream up a scenerio where I shoot at a block of corsair repeater crossbowmen. If they do not panic, goodbye leadies.

I think it really depends on which option will deal more damage to the enemy and less damage to you.

DE Xbows are definitly something you would deal more damage to by charging then by taking their shots.

Knights on the otherhand will not appreciate a round of leadbeltcher fire but would love a drawn out combat.


Of course, if the Crossbow unit is small enough that you could wipe it out with an average round of shooting then it becomes the better option.

Its a very situational call.

I tend to only charge them towards the end of the game and there is nothing reliable to shoot at and everything else is already in combat. They've helped out my bulls and Ironguts enough with a flank charge to help me see the awesomeness of being able to do both. Some extra impacts, some more attacks and possibly stomps. and you get another turn of +1 combat res with a charge.

I have not been in a situation yet where charging over shooting at something in the open would be the better option. Maybe against White Lions?

Def shoot at the COs no question !!!!   

Running into White Lions with Leadies is giving points away. You'll pop a couple with Impact Hits, but then get the unit murdered by attacks that hit on 3's with a re-roll and wound on 2's.

The general rule here is that unless your opponent is better at shooting than you are (DE Repeaters, Flamers, Dwarf Handgunners, Glade Guard), you shoot them. The guys I mentioned above, you charge.

Do you have the ranks to break them on the charge?  If so charge, if not shoot them until you do have the ranks to break them on the charge 

Do you have the ranks to break them on the charge?  If so charge, if not shoot them until you do have the ranks to break them on the charge 

By your logic then, you should NEVER charge ANY undead units? Not even a massive block of skeleton archers?

Do you have the ranks to break them on the charge?  If so charge, if not shoot them until you do have the ranks to break them on the charge 

By your logic then, you should NEVER charge ANY undead units? Not even a massive block of skeleton archers?

Can you make them crumble faster by shooting them or by being in combat?  Same with daemons.  Can you make them crumble on the charge?  If so charge, if not stand back and pull a storm trooper

Does it have Lances(or some serious boost to hitting power gained via charge)? Charge it!

If not? *BOOM!* "Hur, hur!"

IDK, a round of cannonfire will probably do more damage to a knight unit then charging them would.

6 leadbeltchers shooting at 10 Empire Knights.

average of 20 shots yields 4 dead knights and likely a panic test.

Charging the knights.

3 Str5 impact hits, 1.666 unsaved wounds.

Knights have 10 attacks, horses have 5. 9 hits total. 2.5 wounds caused after 6+ armor save.

Leaddies swing and cause 1 additional unsaved wound.

Leaddies 2.666 against 2.555. Draw.


2nd round

Knights swing with 9 attacks and horses have 5. 1.5 unsaved wounds(leaddie dies)

ogres swing and cause .8333 wounds

Ogres lose combat by 1 and are not steadfast.



If the leaddies have shot them up and then the knights charged in the statistics would be this.

6 knights charge the Leaddies(4 died from their shooting)

7 attacks and 5 from horses. Knights cause 4 total.

ogres attack back and kill one knight.

Ogres still lose by one but there are less knights to chew through so if within general's range they can possably grind them down.

IDK, a round of cannonfire will probably do more damage to a knight unit then charging them would.

6 leadbeltchers shooting at 10 Empire Knights.

average of 20 shots yields 4 dead knights and likely a panic test.

Charging the knights.

3 Str5 impact hits, 1.666 unsaved wounds.

Knights have 10 attacks, horses have 5. 9 hits total. 2.5 wounds caused after 6+ armor save.

Leaddies swing and cause 1 additional unsaved wound.

Leaddies 2.666 against 2.555. Draw.


2nd round

Knights swing with 9 attacks and horses have 5. 1.5 unsaved wounds(leaddie dies)

ogres swing and cause .8333 wounds

Ogres lose combat by 1 and are not steadfast.



If the leaddies have shot them up and then the knights charged in the statistics would be this.

6 knights charge the Leaddies(4 died from their shooting)

7 attacks and 5 from horses. Knights cause 4 total.

ogres attack back and kill one knight.

Ogres still lose by one but there are less knights to chew through so if within general's range they can possably grind them down.

Sorry to say, but your math is slightly off.  First, you forgot the Ogre stomp in the first combat where ogres charge in, which would add .3333 wounds bringing the results to: Leaddies 3 wounds against 2.555 wounds. The result is close and might still be a draw; however, if the leadies win then (say 3 wounds vs 2 wounds), then the knights won't have steadfast (LB 2 ranks vs knights 1 rank) and might make the knights flee .  It isn't very likely, but it is possible and that might be the best result you can hope for (however, knights might also have a banner and might get +1 to combat res).  At the very least, I would hope to tie up the knights on their turn and help me position for my next turn movement/charges.

In addition, you forgot to add the horses attacks in the second combat where the knights charge, which should add .6944 wounds.  LB still have a rank compared to the knights rank so LB will have steadfast.  I'm not as confident the general will be in range since knights and LB are typically on the flank.

Nonetheless, I think both combat scenarios are a wash.  In one, you primarily hope to win combat by a small amount and cause a break test on Ld 7 or 8, and secondarily hope to tie the unit up to mess with the other players movement phase (but are possibly open to counter charges).  In the other, your primary hope is to cause a panic test and secondary hope is to trade nuturing the knight unit for what will probably be the death of the LB unit.

Neither scenario is great and hopefully the knight unit will have been weakened by the LB unit before hand.  In the end though, I'd say the choice is a toss up and depends on the situation (are the LB in trees? can you redirect with trappers or a sabertusk?  are you hoping the LB hold and want to set up a counter charge?  are the knights in position to charge something else that you want to protect?).

You can't stomp cavelry.

and I did have the horses attacks in the 2nd combat. My total of 4 included the horse damage(I rounded down becaue it was a small fraction)

You can't stomp cavelry.

and I did have the horses attacks in the 2nd combat. My total of 4 included the horse damage(I rounded down becaue it was a small fraction)

Blurg! Right you are.  Stupid horses.  Re-read your post (because apparently I can read the first time ); wouldn't the ogres be steadfast in the second round of combat though (when ogres charve)?  They lost 2.5 wounds the first round and 1.5 in the second (you note LB dies), so I agree that they don't have a rank bonus; but they would still have the front rank for purposes of steadfast correct?  Similarly, the knights have lost 2-4 guys and would not have a rank bonus, so it would be 1 front rank vs 1 front rank and ogres are steadfast?  (sometimes get confused with steadfast rules, but I thought if you have the same # of ranks or higher than the winning unit, you have steadfast on break test; unfortunately, I'm at work so I don't have the book).

Nonetheless, I still think the decision to charge or shoot against most cavalry is a toss-up (for the reasons I noted in my previous post) and is a situational decision.  I'd generally lean towards shooting though based on your assessment.

For steadfast you have to have more ranks than the foe

Gotcha, thanks.