Ogre ranks in 7th edition

Given that ranks need to be 5 wide now, is anyone planning a 9+ ogres and hero unit in their army? Or is getting rank bonuses gone from something unlikely to something that just doesn't figure into your plans?

Cheers,

Andrew Lotz

I use ranks of ogres, but only for protection for my heros and for higher strength bull charges, they're not five wide but three. It costs over 350 points just to get a plus one rank, and that's not worth it, especially when that unit is basically screaming for a cannonball to plow through it and panic it.

A five wide ogre unit would be hard to manuver and wouldn't even be able to get in all it's attacks. It's gone the way of the dinosaurs sadly.

or unless your going for deathstar... im sure a unit of 15+ ironguts will be enough to break anyunit on the charge, along with some heros. Anywho, other then that, i plan on not using ogres in ranks. I mainly will use 3 units of 4 so that i can line them all up for a s7 gut charge, or get a 4 wide rank so ya, they all work bloody well.

-VAPORgun

VAPORgun, have you actually used the Ogre conga line? Just curious as I've always been very skeptical about this setup, I mean sure you get 1 S7 gut charge, if your opponent gives you the range, but then you are limited to a single models attacks...

Anyway, if you do use it, how does it work for you?

Ogre ranks were easy to remove with missile fire in 6th edition and are now just as easily removed and more expensive as well. I *never* go for a rank bonus with my Ogres.

I, too, would never even consider trying for a rank bonus

too difficult to maintain and too expensive to achieve in the first place.

I agree with Wildcard and Avian and any ogre player, with some experiance will tell you the same: ogres simply cannot have a rank bonus. period.

cheers

Are you asking yourself about adding a rank for ogres ?

To my opinion, I just don't think the 5 per rank affects the ogres at all.

Let's take normal bulls, the less expensive ogres in points. Having 10 ogres to have 5 per rank to get that extra combat resolution bonus and surely the outnumbering with second hand weapon only cost about 390pts. Most armies have shooting and magic attacks that can cause many wounds. By the time the unit of bulls get into combat, chances are you have lost the rank bonus.

Most normal 20mm/25mm bases fig don't cost much points and for that they have the space and points to fill in the numbers which gives them ranks. We all know that most fig on 20mm/25mm bases have 1-2 wounds and attacks as well.

Let's look at the stats:
4 ogres = 12 attacks plus the second hand weapon, we are talking about 16 attacks.
In average we should have 8 wounds if no saves from the opponent has been made.

If your opponent has a champion and/or character, he/they can reply. Let's say on an average of 4-5 attacks they cause 2-3 wounds. In combat resolution, your opponent has about 7 in combat resolution, taking that he outnumbers, has a banner and 3 ranks. That is still not enough to cover the ogres 8 wounds. But it's still close. Even if the ogres would get a charge against them causing an average of 5 wounds. On 4 ogres, you still have 12 attacks to reply.. enough to cause your opponent's unit some casulties. Chances are, you might not win close combat and might get destroyed if fleeing but you caused some damage enough to take out a rank and numbers. This is why, to me, that ogres don't need a rank or even outnumbering in a unit.

Keep In Mind
Ogres have the speed so they can easly set up flank attacks. What you want to do is take away your opponent's 3 ranks.

Let's look at the stats:
4 ogres = 12 attacks plus the second hand weapon, we are talking about 16 attacks.
In average we should have 8 wounds if no saves from the opponent has been made.

Uh, I think you are a bit optimistic here. Against your basic infantry unit (WS3, T3, 5+ armour), you are looking at 8 hits and a bit more than 4 wounds.

The only case you can hope for 8 wounds are against such things as WS2 T2 swarms and suchlike.

I've merged these topics as they basically deal with the same thing.

I'd also side with the majority here, Ogre rank bonuses are history in 7th edition. 
One single combat bonus point is just not worth the cost of 5 Ogres doing nothing in a back rank.  It makes your unit more difficult to manoeuvre, it'll be a huge points sink, the bonus will be lost with the death of one Ogre, and overall it'll weaken the effectiveness of your entire army.

Like it or not, MSU is definitely the best way to play Ogre Kingdoms!

Let's look at the stats:
4 ogres = 12 attacks plus the second hand weapon, we are talking about 16 attacks.
In average we should have 8 wounds if no saves from the opponent has been made.

Uh, I think you are a bit optimistic here. Against your basic infantry unit (WS3, T3, 5+ armour), you are looking at 8 hits and a bit more than 4 wounds.

The only case you can hope for 8 wounds are against such things as WS2 T2 swarms and suchlike.

Yeah I was optimistic hahaha that was a typo between my brain and fingers. Unless i'm planing to roll like my buddy that needs no tactics because of his on going GOD rolling that never seems to stop !!

An ogre rank bonus is just not a practical strategy to aim for in games. Especially now with needing 5 ranks, for our army it is going to be cumbersome to maneuver and I think an experienced opponent will be able to trap and destroy the unit very easily. The bull charge is very enticing to try and maximize it, but it is icing on the cake. You will not win a game with the bull charge, but you can most certainly lose a game relying on it.

Maybe I've read this wrong but doesn't it state in the OK book (on the page with the army special rules) that ogres require four models to attain a rank? Maybe this was just something from the 6th edition to say "they're the same as everyone else in regard to ranks" but it seems to me that maybe they prepared for 7th edition in advance...
After all, don't they start testing months and months before they release anything?

I've seen two or three battles with ranking ogres and have played two with mine. Yes it is cumbersome and movement around terrain is hard. However, If that unit gets the bullcharge or it survives the missile fire until it gets to close combat it pretty much wipes out whatever lays before it. In a match between Ogres and Bretonians, the ogre player used two units of 10 bulls and one unit of 10 ironguts. They killed anything and everything that got within charge range. The cavalry that did charge them however didn't do that great and we're talkin grail knights ((I think)) granted the dice were indeed in favor of the ogre player still it was a very impresive 3000 pt game. But in all practicality ranking ogres is too cumbersome and cost worthy to try. I'd say the largest unit size you want to get is 8.

No, ogres are not an exception to the 5 models for a rank rule. I've heard this before, and the confusion for it seems to come about from the explanation of the bull charge in the OK rulebook, where it mentions a four model wide unit of bulls as an example. If you read any of the White Dwarfs regarding 7th edition, at least one of them mentions changes to armies and how the rules will affect what armies, and ranks for ogres was specifically mentioned, stating that is unlikely that ogre generals will bother with ranks, as having to have 5 models makes them hard to maneuver and costs a lot of points. Also, nowhere in the OK rulebook is this plainly stated, at best it is subtely implied, using assumptions from 6th edition rules...much to my chargrin.

If anyone can refute this, I'm willing to learn.

Nope, you are absolutely correct, and although I'm not 100% sure, and I'm not gona go dig out my new 7edt rule book, but I'm sure in there it mentions specifically about Ogres also needing 5 wide for a rank bonus...

Anyone else remember this, or have the new book handy?

Guys, this "in the book" discussion is going way too far...
There is no rule that says ogres don't need 5 ogres to form a rank... so no need to continue this.
cheers

I swear I saw it somewhere, but on closer inspection I can't find it. Therefore t'was probably just me daydreaming/being hopeful. Apologise on my part.