2500 heavily restricted Tournament

Oi Tyrants,
I have kind of a problem. I'm attending a tournament in roughly a month, but one with quite a few restrictions.
The relevant ones for Ogres:
- Maximum unit cost: 400 points, maximum models per unit: 40
- No Crown of Command
- No Hellheart
- Ironblaster & Leadbelchers 0-1
- Maximum of 10 dice per magic phase, 4 dice per spell

Usually I'd take a list like the following:

1 Lord: 385 Pts.   15.4%
2 Heroes: 394 Pts.   15.7%
3 Core Units: 844 Pts.   33.7%
4 Elite Units: 703 Pts.   28.1%
1 Rare Unit: 170 Pts.   6.8%

Slaughtermaster, General, lvl4, Fencer's Blades, Greedy Fist, Scroll, Lore of The Great Maw - 385 Pts.

Firebelly, GW, lvl2, Hellheart, Lore of Fire - 214 Pts.
Bruiser, GW, HA, Crown of Command, BSB - 180 Pts.

8 Ogres, Handweapon & Ironfist, M, S, C - 286 Pts.
11 Ironguts, M, S, Std. of Discipline - 508 Pts.
10 Gnoblars, Gnoblar Trappers - 50 Pts.

7 Leadbelchers, M - 311 Pts.
4 Mournfang Cavalry, HA, Ironfist, M, S, Dragonhide Banner - 350 Pts.
1 Sabretusks - 21 Pts.
1 Sabretusks - 21 Pts.

Ironblaster - 170 Pts.

Total: 2496

As you see, there are quite a few problems, no crown, no Hellheart, and the Ironguts are too expensive.

So I brooded what to field and came up with this list:

1 Lord: 385 Pts.   15.4%
2 Heroes: 391 Pts.   15.6%
4 Core Units: 830 Pts.   33.2%
5 Elite Units: 724 Pts.   28.9%
1 Rare Unit: 170 Pts.   6.8%


Slaughtermaster, General, lvl4, Fencer's Blades, Talisman of Preservation, Power Stone, Lore of The Great Maw - 385 Pts.

Firebelly, 2xHw, lvl2, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Scroll, Lore of Fire - 207 Pts.
Bruiser, Ironfist, Armour of Destiny, BSB - 184 Pts.

8 Ogres, Handweapon & Ironfist, M, S - 276 Pts.
8 Ironguts, M, S, Std. of Discipline - 379 Pts.
10 Gnoblars, Gnoblar Trappers - 50 Pts.
40 Gnoblars, Gnoblar Trappers - 125 Pts.

7 Leadbelchers, M - 311 Pts.
4 Mournfang Cavalry, HA, Ironfist, M, S, Dragonhide Banner - 350 Pts.
1 Sabretusks - 21 Pts.
1 Sabretusks - 21 Pts.
1 Sabretusks - 21 Pts.

Ironblaster - 170 Pts.

Total: 2500

The SM would go with the Ironguts, BSB with the Bulls and the Firebelly with the Leadbelchers. The list contains lots of throw away units, and the Gnoblar bus can hopefully bog down a unit for quite some time, allowing a much needed flank charge. Powerstone on the SM allows to get a spell of even with only one or two dice, which could prove essential with Trollguts for example...

I'd love to take a Scrappy as well, unfortunately I do not own one (yet). Would it fare better than the big Gnoblar unit? I could invest in one if it would be worthwhile, I guess...

Lastly, I'm no WAAC player, but I'd prefer to be at least a bit of a challenge...

What do you think? Any advice would be of use and greatly appreciated!

Mork

I really like the 2nd list. 6 levels of magic is a bit much when only allowed 10 PD (guessing that its the maximum even if you generate more?). It just has a lot more punch to it. Only thing I dont understand is the 40 gnoblar unit. I would tone it down and add another ogre to the 8 man unit making it 3x3 without characters.

The 6 level are one of the main points which I'm pondering about. With the removal of the Gnoblars, one Sabretusk and the Level 2 Upgrade I could include a Thundertusk. Then again, there are many other Ogre players as well as a few Dwarf and Empire players, so a monster seems risky...

Anyway, reducing the Firebelly to level 1 (= Fireball machine) seems reasonable.

On the Gnoblars, I intented to use them as roadblock to enemy units. 5 wide they should be able to survive (and be steadfast) for a few rounds...
Adding another Bull would be possible of course, but I find that the Bulls often need the additional hitting and staying power provided by a hero.

2nd list in my opinion.  again agreeing with Tobgoblin 6 levels are a little much considering the restrictions.

Those restrictions are quite harsh indeed though.  Are other armies getting similar treatment in this tournament I assume?

With that kind of comp I'd be tempted to death star up. 6 man eaters (for stubborn) with 3 characters is going to make a meal of a lot of lists.

However expect enemies with stubborn units to be death starring up too.

What are the full comp restrictions for the tourney?  with only 4 dice per spell and 10 per magic phase you might be well served with the grut's sickle. Also 5 maneaters w/ lt armor and banner of discipline  brace of pistols come in at about  350. That could be a good way to fit in stubborn.

Many thanks for your input so far, guys!

Regarding the Magic problem. I'm thinking about using a tyrant and 2 level 2 casters, a Butcher and a Firebelly. Butcher could carry the Staff of Sorcery for +3 (or +4 with Bloodgruel) to dispel.
Firebelly would get reduced to level 1 for sure, but somehow I feel a Lvl 4 is necessary, because LotGM gets alot better on a Slaughtermaster imo.

The Stubborn Maneaters seem like a good idea, but wouldn't 5 of them be too small? In the games I used them, everybody focuses the Maneaters, so I came up with the following:

7 Maneaters [Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn] with Heavy Armour and Standardbearer with Lookout Gnoblar and Gleaming Pennant
- - - > 398 Points

They are fairly minimalist, but the Heavy Armour should bring more benefit than 3 more attacks from add. Handweapons and a Musician. Gleaming Pendant is a bit of a insurrance should they act out of the BSB bubble. I could also include the BSB in the unit and going 3x3, thus generating kind of a mini deathstar, like Gutlord suggests.

Another option would be:

7 Maneaters [Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn], with 3 Additional Handweapons and Standard Bearer with Lookout Gnoblar and Standard of Discipline
- - - > 396 Points

This way a Ld 10 bubble could be spread with a tyrant. Or LD 9 with a SM. The unit is quite squishy, though.


On the restrictions thing: Yep, all armies (except Beastmen and Wood Elves) are restricted more or less. The magic phase and unit size/cost restrictions are general, and Daemons are even more restricted.

Another restriction is a maximum bonus of +6 to casts, so Grut's Sickle could work, but I dislike using a item which damages my units and potentially kills my Slaughtermaster. And with uing LotGM with Bloodgruel, I'd pay quite a few points and wounds for a +1 to cast...

Are there restrictions on Empire, Dwarf, etc warmachines?

D...

There are general restrictions:
- No more than 4 Warmachines
- No more than 3 Template weapons

Empire has Steam Tank (counts as template weapon) and Hellstorm 0-1.

Dwarfs have:
No more than 2 runes per warmachine. Not the same rune twice on a Warmachine, 0-1 Organ gun

Skaven Warp Lightning Cannon, Bretonia Trebuchet and Chaos Dwarf Tremor Cannon are 0-1.

... I think these are all in regards to warmachines.



EDIT: Do you know this feeling when you realize that you were quite stuck in your common mindset all the time? What about using only ONE caster to solve the point cost AND the magic dice problem?

So, together with your input, what do you think of:

1 Lord: 380 Pts.   15.2%
1 Hero: 159 Pts.   6.3%
3 Core Units: 646 Pts.   25.8%
5 Elite Units: 1143 Pts.   45.7%
1 Rare Unit: 170 Pts.   6.8%

***************  1 Lord  *************** 

Slaughtermaster [Level 4: Lore of the Great Maw, in the Ironguts]
with  Fencer's Blades, Ironcurse Icon, Talisman of Endurance and Dispel Scroll
- - - > 380 Points

***************  1 Hero  *************** 

Bruiser [Battlestandard Bearer, in the Maneaters]
with  Heavy Armour, Sword of Striking, Rock Eye and Enchanted Shield
- - - > 159 Points

***************  3 Core Units  *************** 

6 Ogres with Handweapon & Ironfist, Musician and Standardbearer
- - - > 212 Points

8 Ironguts with Musician and Standardbearer with Lookout Gnoblar and the Standard of Discipline
- - - > 384 Points

10 Gnoblar Trappers
- - - > 50 Points

***************  5 Elite Units  *************** 

8 Leadbelchers with Musician
- - - > 354 Points

4 Mournfang Cavalry with Heavy Armour, Ironfist, Musician and Standardbearer with the Dragonhide Banner
- - - > 350 Points

7 Maneaters [Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn] with Heavy Armour, 2 with Add. Handweapon and Standardbearer with Lookout Gnoblar
- - - > 397 Points

2 x 1 Sabretusk
- - - > 42 Points

***************  1 Rare Unit  *************** 

Ironblaster
- - - > 170 Points

Total Points Ogre Kingdoms : 2498

The Stubborn Maneaters seem like a good idea, but wouldn't 5 of them be too small? In the games I used them, everybody focuses the Maneaters, so I came up with the following:

7 Maneaters [Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn] with Heavy Armour and Standardbearer with Lookout Gnoblar and Gleaming Pennant
- - - > 398 Points

They are fairly minimalist, but the Heavy Armour should bring more benefit than 3 more attacks from add. Handweapons and a Musician. Gleaming Pendant is a bit of a insurrance should they act out of the BSB bubble. I could also include the BSB in the unit and going 3x3, thus generating kind of a mini deathstar, like Gutlord suggests.

Another option would be:

7 Maneaters [Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn], with 3 Additional Handweapons and Standard Bearer with Lookout Gnoblar and Standard of Discipline
- - - > 396 Points

This way a Ld 10 bubble could be spread with a tyrant. Or LD 9 with a SM. The unit is quite squishy, though.

The trick to preventing them being squishy would be to turn them into a gutstar. Put your Tyrant, SM and BSB in the unit decked out and loaded for bear. Hellheart is comped to I'd be tempted to go for the Rune Maw to keep enemy magicks off them. That uses the old "gutstar" trick - form up 3 wide and the 3 characters go to the front, protecting the "squishy" maneaters in the back.

Keep the maneaters cheap obviously - I wouldn't even bother with heavy armour, points better spent elsewhere. I would keep at least 3x brace of pistols with the poison though for the front rank, useful! I would give them all extra hand weapons though. With a 400 point cap I'd say:
6 maneaters, 3x BoH, 3xXHW, full command, +1Ld banner. = 392

Then you throw in 3-5 characters and charge at the enemy!

Gutstar builds are still pretty viable. One thing I want to try is 3 firebellies in a unit of ironguts with the Dragonhide banner. Have fun with your 6D6S4 and 2D6S3 automatic hits!

No Crown of Command allowed?

that's a mega-pointless restriction in a whole batch of pointless restrictions, and yet they didn't comp Mournfangs? But they comped leadbeltchers?



Anyway, I like the list the OP posted in his last post, except I would trim the leadbeltchers down to 6 and fold the points into beefing up the Bull unit. its a little too small to do much at this level.  stuff the excess points into the gnoblars

Crown of Command being restricted is an excellent idea. Firstly, it's massively too cheap. Given that it extends to a whole unit, 35 points is practically nothing. Beastmen pay 70 points for an equivalent gift and that's about right really.

The real problem with Crown of Command is it gives everyone the ability to cheaply stubborn up one unit, typically with BSB in it. That makes this unit more or less immune to warhammer - you can flank it, beat it senseless and hit it with ranks and it can sit pretty.

It's this "no brainer" aspect coupled with the fact that the mere presence of this item in everyone's lists makes the game less tactical. Each player can make one unit "idiot proof" that needs to be killed down to the last man or some tooled up character needs to be offed.

I don't think it's particularly overpowered because just about every army can have it but I think the games are more interesting without it. Plus people are less likely to make deathstars, which is obvious from this thread. If the crown of command were not comped with these restrictions I'd throw 4-5 characters in a gutstar and I think that would do well. Removing the crown of command makes deathstars more risky - which is a good thing! Particularly when you've comped out warmachines and giant hordestar units, etc.

I don't know if I fully agree on the Crown. Sure, it is good, but I'd not describe it as "No-Brainer". For Ogres it is a good and reliable way to get steadfast (other armies can count on ranks, which we cannot), but generally I would not take the Crown in either my O&G or my WoC army.
Maybe it has to do with my mindset (= if your Savage horde/Chaos Warriors/big Ogre units manages to lose combat, they deserve to get routed and run down), but Stubborn is vastly overrated in my eyes, both on the Stronghold and on Warseer. It is not the solution to all problems. I give it to my BSB, because he usually sits in the Second rank anyways and can be put to good use there.

Bulls (where my BSB usually is) are also the only unit we have where Stubborn is needed, because they can lose their combats without support. But Ironguts, or a unit of Maneaters? If you manage to have them receive more damage than they deal, then they (and indirectly you) deserve to fail that break test. Medium sized Ogre units cannot afford many losses anyways, because they lack the bodies to be effective in a war of attrition.

Furthermore, Stubborn is not Unbreakable. Many people seems to believe that a Stubborn unit never runs, which is just not true. It improves the odds, sure, but I prefer to win my combats, instead of losing them and then have to count on my Break test, even if it is a unmodified one. Because in some (critical) situations, you may and will still fail it. (Speaking from a O&G players view, Night Goblins do not win combats that often on their own.)


Well, enough of the rant, thanks for the advice, grey templar, I guess 6 Belchers are enough indeed. With a little tweak I'll buff the Bulls to 9 models... Hopefully I can test it these days.

Thanks again for the advices!