The Ogre Culture Project

Come one come all, ogres of the Stronghold. Today we begin to flesh out ogre culture, such as it is.

I will be keeping track of all the things we have assembled thus far here in the first post.

Note that this is designed to be a supplement to the fluff in the ogre army books, past, present, and future. I will make every effort to ensure there are no contradictions. Naturally anything written here is secondary to official material and is my personal conclusions drawn from existing fluff merged with other posters thoughts.


Alright, now that thats out of the way. To Business.


Topic Currently up for discussion

Ogre Social customs and order


Reproduction

As an established ground rule we have Ogres living in a "Might makes right" society. The Strong are on top, and everyone else gets eaten.

Some logical conclusions from this line of thinking, in particular relating to Ogre Reproduction, is that ogres would have a Polygamous view of reproduction. Bulls will compete with each other to maintain a Haram. The mightiest Bulls will invarably attract more Cows(Cow being the proper term for a She-ogre)

This will result in the Tyrant of a tribe, being the strongest Bull around(Note: As ogre qualifications for leadership are based strictly on strength and brutality it isn't unheard of for a Cow to be a Tribe's Tyrant. This will be discussed later), having a massive haram while the lesser ogres in the tribe may be lucky to have even a single mate. The majority of a Tribes adult Bulls will have at least one mate, indeed this is usually all they can manage. Those counted amoung the Tribe's ironguts may occasionally has 2 or 3 Cows to call their own.

However the choosing of a mate does require the cooperation of the Cow. A bull who displeases his Haram can quickly find himself without a mate. Normally this displeasure will revolve around how much food a Bull is able to provide his Haram. The proper feeding of his Haram is both a religious, moral, and practical requirement for a Bull to do.

The religious connotations of a well fed Haram are obvious enough to those familiar with the Great Maw so we will skip that discussion. Morally and practically it is important for several reasons.

One of these reasons ties in with Gorgers. The birth of a paunchless whelp is a source of great shame for the parents, particularly the father. It is believed by ogres that the birth of such a whelp is both a sign of Spiritual and physical hunger. If a Cow isn't fed properly by her Bull during Pregnancy she will likely bear such a cursed offspring. The signs of such neglect reflect poorly on the Bull who sired the offspring. It shows him as being a weak and vulnerable. It isn't unknown for an outraged cow to turn upon her mate, kill, and consume him in revenge for such neglect.

However, this is by no means a one-way street. A cow that has repeatedly calved paunchless offspring or has calved such a deformed child from an undeniably strong sire, particularly the tribe's Tyrant or one of the Bruisers, may find herself to be the one accused of weakness or apostaty.

This is a brutal system, but it invariably keeps the Ogre race strong and rugged.

Courtship

Ogre Courtship, as with all things, involves food. If a Cow catches a Bull's eye he will have to, in addition to proving how strong he is, begin the courtship with choice offerings of meat. These offerings are relativly small by ogre standards, but they are significant. The exact cuts of meat are always of some succulent piece, such as a heart or hindquarters. if the prey is small it may be given whole(a live elf is considered to be extremely opulant and will immediatly set any cow's heart a flutter)

The practice of meat giving has no set time period of how long it lasts. The bull simply waits for the cow's response, but he is not idle. He will, indeed he must, participate in all of the tribal contests to prove his strength, for his cow is watching.

When she has made her decision she will take a Rhinox heart(if no Rhinox heart is avaliable, then any heart will do) and take it to the bull. If she splits the heart and shares it, she has said yes. If she eats it whole, she has said no. Thus does she give, or keep, her own heart.


Leadership:

As I said before, Ogres live in a might makes right society. Hence their leaders are going to be bigger and stronger then everyone below them in the pecking order.

The Tyrant is the head of the Ogre tribe. The biggest meanest ogre out of the entire tribe. A new tyrant is always enthroned with a Guts out pitfight, in which the winner becomes/remains the Tribes Tyrant, and the loser becomes the winners next meal.

Tyrants, by decree of their status, make all the big decisions for the tribe. At least that is what officially happens. The Tribe's Butcher(s) will often advise their Tyrant on any big decisions that need to be made, in a sense being the brains behind the throne while the Tyrant is the brawn. This is because Tyrants arn't any more advanced in their cognitive abilities then other ogres, of course no Tyrant would ever admit that, whereas the holy men of the Ogre race seem to be posessed of a low cunning bordering on true intellegence.

A Tyrant will seek his mate in the same fashion as every other Bull will. Albiet with a much higher success rate. It is one of the priviledges of his station. Ogresses, as with all ogres, love the power and status that comes with being mate to a high ranking member of the tribe.

The leadership of a tribe, dispite the historical trend, is not limited to the male sex. If a Female is able to best the Tribe's Tyrant no one is going to argue with her right to be the Tyrant. The effect on a Cow's social life upon becoming Tyrant is not significant. She will have the choice pick of every male ogre in the tribe for her mate. A Tyrantess will still wait for a Bull to approach her with the offer of becoming his mate. A Tyrantess, just like every other cow, desires a strong mate. Courage is one of those qualities that ogres value, and asking the Tyrant to be your mate takes great courage. It also takes more to impress a Tyrantess then a cow in a lesser station, she will have high standards.

Gender and Species Roles in ogre society:

Ogres live in a society that is highly gender equal. There is no concept of "Cow's work" vs "Bull's work". They do have a concept of "Gnoblar work" and "Ogre work" which is simply a racial division, one that neither side questions.

Menial tasks such as cooking and cleaning are usually delegated to an ogre's gnoblars. although an ogre is not above doing most tasks if he or she doesn't have enough gnoblars, there are some jobs ogres simply will not do. Such as cleaning out the latrines(assuming the tribe has them) or making the bed.

Female Ogres do much the same things that the males do. Eating, sleeping, fighting... The only specific job that an ogress is expected to do is to raise whelps out of Infancy. Once a whelp is able to walk and eat meat the job becomes a shared responsability of both parents, with the father having the greater responsibility. It is the father that teaches the whelp the finer points of being an ogre, how to construct a club, stalk prey, and bully the other whelps around. This doesn't mean the learning process is in any way an orderly affair. The Whelp has to actively persue it's father to learn, Bulls arn't going to wait around and be slowed by their Whelps if they can't keep up.

On the battlefield, female ogres will rank up along with the males to form the fighting units of an ogre army. A unit of Ironguts may have the Tyrant's mates as some of its members if they have the equipment for the job.

Let me be the first one to say that I believe your statement epitomizes ogre relationship. As for how they "pop the question" or anything else like that I will have to comment when I think of something. Any way well done again. 

From my own mythos of how Ogre society is organised it's sounding pretty solid, however I can imagine certain practices varying from tribe to tribe much like other races.

Some tribes may have a more monogamous structure than others, some may hold male and female ogres as equals on and off the battlefield, some practice a harem society etc etc.

The basis of what you have witten however sounds as if it would be practised by and large throughout the Ogre Kingdoms. Nice bit of background fluff, and something that is readily expanded upon.

Thats what I was going to get at.

I will add a bit on how ogres will pick up what ever culture they have come accross, but the above is what can be seen as the true ogre culture showing through.

Thats what I was going to get at.

I will add a bit on how ogres will pick up what ever culture they have come accross, but the above is what can be seen as the true ogre culture showing through.

Yay! Def what mine are aluding to...now give me a day or three without interuption from work life etc and I'll get roound to typing it up...

I know its notated in the codex that the weak offspring are discarded to caves and some eventually grow into gorgers.  However, I do find it hard to believe that they would do this in a "real life" situation.  From everything else we know about the Ogre culture and religion (The Great Maw).  It seems off to me that they would discard them to caves instead of eating them.

The weak offspring are viewed as cursed so I can imagine they might feel a little squeemish about eating something their god has cursed.

I can't actually get behind most of this.
First of all, is their any canon lore that mentions harems? I don't read Warhammer novels so I may very well have missed that. I'm not saying harems are flat out wrong, but they shouldn't necessarily be the foundation of Ogre relations if GW hasn't said they are.
Secondly, I'm completely against the idea of the Cows being submissive. Certainly you mention the Cows have freedom, but they sound mostly like how human society says women are traditionally supposed to be (a prize to be won by the male). In the fluff of the army books we have no reason to think Cows are stay at home, or are in any way second-class citizens (which a harem is indicative of). Look at the animal kingdom for examples of predators who work in groups- all of the females are hunters along with the men. Ogres are the top predators in the Mountains of Mourn, and the women are going to be more than capable of taking on a unit of Empire knights, or tackling a rhinox single handed- they aren't going to take any flak from Bulls.
I also disagree with the idea of the Bull giving the Cow succulent bits of meat for courtship. She'd probably be offended by that. Again, the Cow is more than capable of making her own kills, and having to be fed by someone else implies she is weak. And the weak are meant to die, or be property (thinlings and gnoblars, respectively).

I do agree with the idea that powerful Ogres will have more partners than rank-and-file Ogres, and that keeping your partner well fed is both practical and religious. However, I envision much more equality between Bulls and Cows.

Since we have no mention of female Ogres in the fluff (I see the female maneater, and I think it is actually an Ogre, whether male or female, who is taking on the stereotypical dress of a thinling female), we are forced to assume they perform the same roles as male Ogres (or they don't exist). Thus a tyrant or bruiser could easily be a female.
And since Ogres don't really go in for submission, the harem is probably more like a list of booty calls. When the dominant Ogre wants some sweet lovin', it goes and finds one of the Ogres it has proven itself to, and gets some. And the other Ogres in the tribe will stay away from the tyrant's/bruiser's partners, or suffer the wrath.

The courtship, rather than being a gift giving occasion (again, implies weakness, and Ogres don't have gifts), would probably be more of a mating ritual to prove your strength to your partner. Maybe the Ogre beats the other in a fight, or takes down a dangerous monster, or some other feat that proves the Ogre won't sire weak off spring.

Sadly, there are almost no books that mention ogres at all, and all of the mentions are on the battlefield. nothing from the pov of the ogres, or even from the side that is actually dealing with the Ogres. hence the reason for this project, the fluff doesn't exist so we must make our own.

I don't see where I said the Cow was in any way submissive. I repeatedly put in how the Cow is in many ways the boss. Its the cow who says "yes", she may turn on a Bull who sires a Gorger with her, and she may just pack up and leave if he doesn't do his job.

This is only in retrospect to the nature of ogre reproduction. I havn't gotten into the roles of male and female yet. I certaintly won't make the Ogresses be the cooks and dishwashers while only the males fight.

And I am using the term Haram in a loose way here. In this case it just means a group of females who one male has specific breeding rights too. Get the image of a rich shiek with all his wives dressed in skimpy clothes out of your mind. I don't mean Haram in the way its used in popular culture. Haram is what is often used for animals that use breeding groups that are for a single male(Like Elk, Seals, or Walruses) and that is more along the line its meant here.

Haram would be what humans would call it because its what the ogre word for it would translate to.

I wil be adding a section on the roles of males and females later, but I am in the middle of Finals right now.

I don't see where I said the Cow was in any way submissive.

You did though. A harem has the implication of property. It is where women sit and wait for the man to be ready and come extract his pleasure from them. It is a place where women are trained to be good wives. Even in regards to the harems of elephants and walruses the male has exclusive breeding rights to the women, which means they don't get to choose other men.
You also described the courtship ritual in a way that place Cows in a submissive role. The idea that the man should go out and do the hunting, and bring back the food to win the woman, is one that suggests he is the one capable of providing for the family and that she is a prize to be won. It is the same line of thought that states the human male is the bread winner, and the human female is the family keeper.
You did throw the Cows a bone and say they have to accept the male, or that she can leave. Which would be all well and good if tyrants didn't eat the people who disobeyed them.

Because the fluff hasn't mentioned the roles of male or female Ogres, don't put a line where it doesn't exist. Male and female Ogres perform the same functions. A Cow is just as likely to have a harem of Bulls as a Bull is to have his Cow harem. A Cow is just as likely to be tyrant as a Bull.
And when I say harem, I mean a group of Cows/Bulls the Ogre in question ruts with, and other Ogres generally stay away from. Ogres don't have much regard for relationships or family (this we know from fluff), and don't go in for much ownership (again, we do know this from fluff). From that, I suspect that the harem is only a pretty loose term, and mostly its about a group of Bulls/Cows who are into one Bull/Cow and vice versa.

I'm starting to get the feeling this is turing into a "define a ranged attack" type discussion. 

I don't see where I said the Cow was in any way submissive.

You did though. A harem has the implication of property. It is where women sit and wait for the man to be ready and come extract his pleasure from them. It is a place where women are trained to be good wives. Even in regards to the harems of elephants and walruses the male has exclusive breeding rights to the women, which means they don't get to choose other men.
You also described the courtship ritual in a way that place Cows in a submissive role. The idea that the man should go out and do the hunting, and bring back the food to win the woman, is one that suggests he is the one capable of providing for the family and that she is a prize to be won. It is the same line of thought that states the human male is the bread winner, and the human female is the family keeper.
You did throw the Cows a bone and say they have to accept the male, or that she can leave. Which would be all well and good if tyrants didn't eat the people who disobeyed them.

Because the fluff hasn't mentioned the roles of male or female Ogres, don't put a line where it doesn't exist. Male and female Ogres perform the same functions. A Cow is just as likely to have a harem of Bulls as a Bull is to have his Cow harem. A Cow is just as likely to be tyrant as a Bull.
And when I say harem, I mean a group of Cows/Bulls the Ogre in question ruts with, and other Ogres generally stay away from. Ogres don't have much regard for relationships or family (this we know from fluff), and don't go in for much ownership (again, we do know this from fluff). From that, I suspect that the harem is only a pretty loose term, and mostly its about a group of Bulls/Cows who are into one Bull/Cow and vice versa.

You are bringing your preconcieved notions of the word Haram into this discussion. I didn't, you just assumed I did.

Thats not what was meant at all. In this situation, Haram simply means group of females to which a male has exclusive breeding rights to, and in the case of Ogres its because the Cows are the ones who give that right. Maybe I should have clarified.

And how do we know that ogres don't have regard for relationships? There isn't any fluff on this one way or the other.


It also isn't finished, so hold your horses. I'll get to where the complications arise if its the Tyrant in particular doing the asking.

The weak offspring are viewed as cursed so I can imagine they might feel a little squeemish about eating something their god has cursed.

Oh I meant to notate that this was a good point before but forgot.  +1 for you!

Added and edited some point(and made sure ogre society is equal opprotunity Reg )

I am very confused indeed Grey Templar, because you are one who has read my personal writings on this very same subject, and as far as I could tell, you approved of it. Yet now you come presenting this report that gives complete dis-regard to my fluff.

I must agree with every point that Reg06 has posed in this discussion; indeed a harem suggests a submission of the members of this harem to it's master. And even if you give the cows a couple of privileges, like saying yes or no and blaming the men for bad offspring,  it is still the cow that becomes a second class citizen. Besides, if this was the case, male ogres would probably kill any cow that has bared crappy babies before she gets a chance to blame him. And I don't think Reg06 is bringing in his conceptions of harem; the word 'harem' pretty much means 'master and subjects'.
One last thing; I don't have such a problem with you writing fluff that blatantly clashes with mine - people should read both and make up their mind on which one they are more pleased with - , but it does annoy me that you have referred to this thread as being established fluff.

It also seems to be slipping everyone's minds the possibility of homosexuality. Some might say that ogres would not do this because it does not bear off-spring, but homosexual behavior has been proven in about 500 animal species, and about another 1000 have been observed to do so as well.

@ Reg06, family and similar concepts are indeed described in the army books. Look up the entry for the tyrant in the first army book as an example.

@ Everyone else, this is my alternative thought on ogre culture, I suggest you read them and decide which you agree more with: http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=20705.0

In regards to family;
Absolutely the army books mention lineage and off spring and grandfathers and all that. But they also mention that a certain tyrant ate his grandsons because they might try to dethrone him. I might be misremembering, but as far I can remember the only time family or lineage is mentioned is when the Ogres are eating their family members (I can't find my original army book at the moment). This leads me to believe that while Ogres have a concept of family, and appreciate it, they view it as important, or as bonding, as we do.

In regards to harem;
100% the word harem implies submissiveness in regards to human relations. To say otherwise is to completely misunderstand the term.

In regards to homosexuality;
I honestly think the Ogres would be completely okay with homosexual relations. Ogres are base creatures with primal needs, and they like a good rutting even if it can't end in pregnancy. I wouldn't say every Ogre, or even most, are bisexual or homosexual, but they are likely to be very much into free love.

The more that I think about it, the more the idea of having steady partners or a harem doesn't really fit the established identity of Ogres. They are predators and nomads, and despise weakness, their entire culture revolves around seeking out pleasurable things, and they despise weakness. When you spend your entire life attempting to survive, and trying to have as good a time as possible, why would you be interested in establishing a reliable relationship with someone when either one of you is likely to wake up the next morning and decide to walk to Bretonnia?

I am very confused indeed Grey Templar, because you are one who has read my personal writings on this very same subject, and as far as I could tell, you approved of it. Yet now you come presenting this report that gives complete dis-regard to my fluff.

I must agree with every point that Reg06 has posed in this discussion; indeed a harem suggests a submission of the members of this harem to it's master. And even if you give the cows a couple of privileges, like saying yes or no and blaming the men for bad offspring,  it is still the cow that becomes a second class citizen. Besides, if this was the case, male ogres would probably kill any cow that has bared crappy babies before she gets a chance to blame him. And I don't think Reg06 is bringing in his conceptions of harem; the word 'harem' pretty much means 'master and subjects'.
One last thing; I don't have such a problem with you writing fluff that blatantly clashes with mine - people should read both and make up their mind on which one they are more pleased with - , but it does annoy me that you have referred to this thread as being established fluff.

I have not referred to this as established fluff and I am sorry if its come accross that way. The real purpose is to give people a place to come if they are writing their own fluff to have something solid to base it on.

I would consider this solid enough given the complete lack of actual fluff. If GW ever gets around to this portion of the Fluff I will most certaintly change it. But as it is one opinion is good as another. I appreciate your input.

I liked your fluff and it partly inspired me to write this. I disagreed over the lack of a true biological family, so I present my version here.

It also seems to be slipping everyone's minds the possibility of homosexuality. Some might say that ogres would not do this because it does not bear off-spring, but homosexual behavior has been proven in about 500 animal species, and about another 1000 have been observed to do so as well.

And why does this need to be put in? its certaintly possable, but this is a touchy subject with many people and I think it is best left alone. Wouldn't want to offend anyone now would we



And I really don't understand the quibbling over the word Harem(been mispelling it)

Is there a better word for a group of females utilizing a single male for reproductive/relational purposes in this instance?



Ogres are migratory, but they do tend to stay with their tribes. Maneaters not withstanding, who don't/wouldn't really fit into any type of social order. Obviously this only applies to the ogres that remain with their tribes for the long term.

I would consider this solid enough given the complete lack of actual fluff. If GW ever gets around to this portion of the Fluff I will most certaintly change it. But as it is one opinion is good as another. I appreciate your input.

Then why not try to create something based on what GW has said? They haven't said much, so instead of creating new details simply make conclusions based on what they have said.

Is there a better word for a group of females utilizing a single male for reproductive/relational purposes in this instance?

Player.

This doesn't conflict with anything that GW has published, I believe it is completely sound given what little we know. We know they move about in tribes, are ruled by Tyrants, have Shamen/holy men in the form of Butchers and SMs and Firebellies. We know there are females and that there is breastfeeding(from the Butcher fluff in the old book)

Thats literally all we got. I basically am making conclusions based on what GW has said. It is logical that in a society that values strength that a Bull would benifit from having multiple mates. Females having the same opprotunities as the males as far as being top dog, because its based on strength not gender. Seems like a logical conclusion to me. There will be other conclusions, but this one is as good as the others.


And "Player"? Seriously? I would prefer to not use Slang words. Besides player is singular, this requires a plural word.

This doesn't conflict with anything that GW has published, I believe it is completely sound given what little we know.

I wasn't saying you were conflicting GW fluff, but inventing things. We have very little to go on, so fan made fluff should focus on figuring out how the scant few details work, not inventing new details (like submissive females, or harems, or courting rituals).

It is logical that in a society that values strength that a Bull would benifit from having multiple mates. Females having the same opprotunities as the males as far as being top dog, because its based on strength not gender. Seems like a logical conclusion to me. There will be other conclusions, but this one is as good as the others.

I agree?

And "Player"? Seriously? I would prefer to not use Slang words. Besides player is singular, this requires a plural word.

Player is not the term for writing the fluff, but the idea is exactly what I think works. A harem requires a degree of submissiveness and structure that I don't think fits the Ogres. Rather I think the dominant Ogres are all players who fornicate pretty freely with whomever they desire.

As a matter of fact, Grey, there is ONE single point in which your fluff clashes slightly with the established GW stuff: You said that the Tyrant makes any and all decisions that will affect the tribe as a whole, yet in the Butcher entry it says that many times they are the brains behind the tyrants; it is many times they who engage in politics through their tyrants.

@ Reg06, I guess I miss-used the word 'Described'. GW does not 'describe' family, but it certainly 'mentions' it. It is also mentioned in the Irongut entry - it says that many of them are close relatives of the Tyrant.

ooo, very true. Although I actually can't find that bit in the new army book, but I will change that.


I also found another thing. In the Tyrant's entry it says "As the dominant male of the Tribe, a Tyrant will frequently sire strong offspring..."

This would actually seem to put females in a more subordinate role then we originally thought. How do we approach this bit?

Well, as I see it, there being a 'dominant male' does not make imposible the existence of a 'dominant female', but it does seem to put males on a higher stand...

What do you think Reg06?