I cast my lot with the Tyrants

Been reading the forums heavily and I have decided that I want to use a Tyrant more than a SM for my general.  I don't own any MFC and don't think I will get any (Unless I can be convinced that they are worth it)  Overall, I favor bigger blocks of angry fat men over small units of fat men on mounts.

So, here is my list for 2500 points.  Trying to be flexible enough to fight anyone but the top three armies in my area are WoC, Vampires, and probably Lizardmen (although Skaven are pretty popular, too)

2500 Pts - Ogre Kingdoms Roster - DA THUNDAH GUTZ

Tyrant Hamfist Foulguts the Amazingly Flatulent, 305 pts (General)
Fencer's Blades
Glittering Scales
Talisman of Endurance
Potion of Speed

Bruiser (Battle Standard Bearer), 193 pts (He hasn't earned a name yet!  I just converted him)
Look Out Gnoblar
Hand Weapon
Ironfist
Heavy Armour
Talisman of Preservation
Ironcurse Icon

Butcher Gromley Hobbiteater, 160 pts
Level 2 Upgrade
Dispell Scroll
Lore of the Great Maw

Butcher Brufus Elf-Splitter, 185 pts
Level 2 Upgrade
Hellheart
The Lore of Heavens

7 Ironguts, 389 pts [TYRANT GOES HERE]
Look Out Gnoblars
Full Command
Banner of Eternal Flame

7 Ogres, 259 pts [1 BUTCHER GOES HERE]
Look Out Gnoblars
Ironfists
Full Command

7 Ogres, 259 pts [1 BUTCHER GOES HERE]
Look Out Gnoblars
Ironfists
Full Command

6 Leadbelchers  268 pts
Bellower

Ironblaster 170

Ironblaster 170

10 Gnoblars, 50 pts
Gnoblar Trappers

10 Gnoblars, 50 pts
Gnoblar Trappers

1 Sabretusk, 21 pts

1 Sabretusk, 21 pts

=============================
Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 305 (0 - 625)
Points of Heroes: 538 (0 - 625)
Points of Core: 1007 (625 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 310 (0 - 1250)
Points of Rare: 340 (0 - 625)
=============================

Still not sure where to put the BSB.  I might let him ride with the Tyrant but that seems like too many eggs in one basket, but if I put him with a unit of Ogres he might not have enough support. 

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Criticisms?  This game is in a few hours so I will be checking back frequently for ideas before I stomp off to battle!

How do you intend to use the heavens butcher?
I think a maw or beasts would benefit the support role better (if that's the intention)
I like heavens for a shooty list, but with only lvl2, you're gambling on getting the best spells.

How about replacing him with a firebelly? This would give you some ranged way of negating regenration (allowing your sky-cannons to cause havoc on big gribblies).
He also adds more combat punch than a butcher, and you get flaming impact hits and cc attacks to boot

I agree with spriten, a heavens wizard won't give you much as a level 2, you really need a lord level to get the true effects across. I also think that the firebelly would be a good replacement for your heavens butcher Vampires, WoC, Lizardmen and Skaven will usually have something that has regeneration on it (Vhargulf, Black Coach I think, Warshrine, Lore of Life Slann and the Hell Pit Abomination). Furthermore the S4 Breath Weapon will decimate most of the troops in a Vampires or Skaven list, especially since they field their troops in such high numbers. One thing I would like to point out is that your Ogre units seem a bit on the small side in terms of numbers, In my 2500pt list I got 6 MFC, 2 units of 12 Ogres and a unit of 9 Ironguts (thats with characters joining them). Since you don't like the MFC thats another 400ish points you can use to get additional things so you may want to rearrange some of your characters' magic configurations.

Finally, I would suggest to not take the units of Gnoblars in such small numbers. I originally played them in units of 10 as well and I found that since we are a combat army and the Gnoblars are slower than the rest of our troops they can really hurt your list as much as they can the enemy's list. I would suggest dropping the Trappers upgrade from both units and taking one block of 40 in the 5 across by 8 deep formation. As long as they stay within your general's leadership, it will take an enemy at least 2 turns of close combat to wipe away those 100pts, giving you time to setup countercharges or just ignore that unit entirely.

I am curious to see how well you do with the fighting lord and 2 level 2's character setup that was popular in 7th edition. I haven't really tried that setup in 8th and I feel like you might get outdone in the magic phase. Another thing to consider is to play a Level 4 SM just as a resilient caster. That way you can field him with the Lore of Heavens and don't have to drop a ton of points to also make him a fighter.

Cheers
Triddion

I would like a firebelly, but do not have one yet.  Considered that second lore hard, and settled on Heavens really just to try it.  I will sub him out for a firebelly, and see how it goes. 

Triddion, I would be interested in seeing that 2500 point list.  I don't have that many Ogres (Can't do 2 12 man Ogre Units) but I can beef them up a little.  Would have to redo the list, and pull the points from elsewhere.

Time to give me a quick idea of what else is in that list?

Hmm.. what if I cut out one unit of Ogres and made the remaining unit 11 strong?  I could also beef up the IGs to 10.

With changing out one butcher for a Firebelly, and growing the Gnoblars to a single unit of 40 that puts me at 2500 points on the nose.

I am just a tiny bit bothered with only having 2 combat units though.  Feel like I need something else, or maybe its just my Brettonian mindset talking?

Oh well, I will give it a shot and see what happens.  Time to head out!

is d3 S5 impact hits per model with 4 S5 attacks , 3 S4 attacks and a S5 stomp as well as a 2+ armor save, parry , M8 and the ability to take the dragonhide banner don't sell Mournfang Cavalry sir I don't know what to tell you.....that this unit can single handedly break many a steadfast unit in a single round of combat or kill 30+ t3 infantry on the charge isn't good enough I don't know what is.

is d3 S5 impact hits per model with 4 S5 attacks , 3 S4 attacks and a S5 stomp as well as a 2+ armor save, parry , M8 and the ability to take the dragonhide banner don't sell Mournfang Cavalry sir I don't know what to tell you.....that this unit can single handedly break many a steadfast unit in a single round of combat or kill 30+ t3 infantry on the charge isn't good enough I don't know what is.

^ Agreed. They're nuts. A staple in my army and will be until an update comes out and totally kills them.

Not saying they aren't good, just saying that I haven't tried them or seen them in action.  Plus, I'd have to paint them and I am feeling lazy.

Oh ok, fine.  I should get them, I know I should.  How big of a unit is good?

Four is a common setup, and many give them Dragonhide banner, making them incredibly dangerous.

Ironfists or great weapons?  My instinct is to give them hand weapons and ironfists so they get the parry save.

Ironfists every time.

Ironfists every time.

This.

Great weapons only enhance the riders attacks, while the 2+/6++ protects the entire model.
The armour gives them a better chance of reaching combat, or live to swing back.

Hamfist Foulguts sorry it took me so long to reply to your question, I don't check this site as often as I should  .

Anyway the list I run in general for 2500 is a unit of 11 Ogres with IF, standard, musician (3 by 4 deep), a unit of 11 Ogres with AHW, standard, musician (4 by 3 deep), 40 Gnoblars (5 by 8 deep), 8 Ironguts (3 by 3 square) with standard, musician, standard of discipline, 6 Mournfang Cavalry with IF (4 in front 2 behind, been trying to get points for Heavy Armor on these guys, no luck so far  ), 2 Sabretusks, an Ironblaster, Level 4 SM with Heavens, Grut's Sickle, Healing Potion, Level 1 with Maw, Dispel Scroll and finally a BSB with Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Lookout Gnoblar and Talisman of Endurance.

The SM goes with the Ironguts to make them 9, the BSB goes with the IF Ogres to make them 12 and the level 1 goes with the AHW Ogres to also make them 12. I've been toying with the ideas of using my SM with Maw and then fielding a level 1 Firebelly to give the AHW Ogre unit some really nice punch to it. This would also free up some points for magic items or upgrades since I wouldn't take Grut's Sickle or the Healing Potion if I play a Maw level 4.

Anyway, that's the list, hope it helps
Triddion

@ spriten, he probably won't need the Dragonhide Banner if he ends up taking a Heavens mage since Harmonic Convergence gives you the same re-rolls, the only downside being you don't get the breath weapon. However, keep in mind that in close combat, a Breath Weapon is used at the Initiative of the model with the breath. Since you are I2 the breath weapon will strike last meaning that the enemy will only suffer the effects of ASL on the next round of combat. At first I thought you fired the breath weapons in the Shooting Phase even if you are in close combat but it actually is part of the close combat round and is used at the Initiative of the bearer. This will give you extra points for magic or some other kind of equipment on your characters or simply more models.

Just my two cents,
Triddion

Also for your Tyrant Setup, I wouldn't field him with the Talisman of Endurance, instead I would run him with one of these two setups:

1) Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales and the Greedy Fist: 6 Strength 6 Attacks at WS 10 and the enemy will need at very least 5's to hit you (6's if they are WS 4 or lower), also gives you a 6+ ward save that eats magic weapons and kills wizard levels - handy. 100pts

2) Sword of Bloodshed, Giantbreaker, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armor, Dragonhelm: 8 Strength 6 Attacks will wipe out anything you face, 2+ Armor save and 2+ ward against Fire. The only weakness of this is that you can't choose to flee, however, in most cases Ogres are the ones doing the charging and if they aren't the enemy is either close enough or fast enough to run you down if you flee. You can get around the 'Can't refuse challenges' by accepting with an upgraded champion if you don't want to fight in a challenge. 100pts of magic and 5pts for Heavy Armor.

Also if you take the Firebelly, drop the Banner of Eternal Flame for the Standard of Discipline, Ogres with LD 10 is amazing.

Just some thought for food (or however that saying goes)
Triddion

Can't have both Dragonhelm and Enchanted Shield on set up 2, as they are both Magic Armour. You could just have an Ironfist for a 3+ save instead though.

Oh yeah pfft fail, I can't believe I didn't catch that, I say it was tiredness  . But yeah the Ironfist is probably a better option anyway since it also gives you a 6+ parry, not the best but can make a difference.

Triddion

But yeah the Ironfist is probably a better option anyway since it also gives you a 6+ parry...

Not if you're using a Magic Weapon. Mundane weapon and mundane shield needed for the Parry save.

Maybe you need to go to bed!

@ spriten, he probably won't need the Dragonhide Banner if he ends up taking a Heavens mage since Harmonic Convergence gives you the same re-rolls, the only downside being you don't get the breath weapon. However, keep in mind that in close combat, a Breath Weapon is used at the Initiative of the model with the breath. Since you are I2 the breath weapon will strike last meaning that the enemy will only suffer the effects of ASL on the next round of combat. At first I thought you fired the breath weapons in the Shooting Phase even if you are in close combat but it actually is part of the close combat round and is used at the Initiative of the bearer. This will give you extra points for magic or some other kind of equipment on your characters or simply more models.

Just my two cents,
Triddion

I completely agree, but there are still many who use it,
I Don't use it myself in my list, as I tend to compare the banner to an extra maneater,and I'd much rather have one more of those
It has some uses though. It adds aproximatley 7 S3 hits (the mournfangs are best against t3 units), which is ok, but nothing amazing. The good part is that the unit that was hit will be striking last until the end of their next turn.
This means that if the ogres don't manage to wipe them out in the first turn (steadfast/stubborn etc), they can reduce the amount of incoming attacks on that second turn, or maybe even wipe them out before the opponent gets to strike.
Personally,I don't think that's worth those points, as they can take a lot of punishment with their 2+/6++


If you want a banner, I think the leadership reroll banner, the fire banner or the  standard of dicipline are more worth their points.

I`d say Dragonhide banner is alot better on 4+ mournfang than a extra maneater. The reroll on charges is too good. 4 Mournfang have 16 S5 and 12 S4 and on average do 8 impact hits, thats 36 attacks, Rerolling all 1 will mean 7 rerolls to hit and then like 5 on to wound, and thats not counting stomp.

And lets not forget about our saves. A horde of witch elves can dish out 50 attacks, reroll to hit they will hit on lets say 44 attacks, 8 of those are poison,  wound on 12. 20 Wounds on mournfang. Mournfang takes 3 wounds with a 2+ save, one dies. But ofc we can reroll so you will probably save them all! haha

This is ofcourse alot of attacks for most units but Dragonhide banner is the best magic banner out there I think, I`d take it for 50 points without the breath weapon and I would never count on getting the heavens spell off. People know you will try to buff units in CC so they will save dices for that.

Wow.  That's alot to think about!

I have added 4 more bulls to my collection, converting them from IGs.  I can field 2 units of 8 bulls now, and a unit of 10 IGs.  I also finished the conversion on my Firebelly (Am I the only one who can't justify paying $40 for a single resin model that's smaller than other kits costing the same or less?)

ALSO, I won an auction on Ebay for 4 Mournfang Cav, and those should be in this coming week.

So, I'll have bigger units of Bulls, a Firebelly, and MFC to play with this weekend when I go up against the WoC on Saturday.

Thanks for all your help guys, and I am going to try something very close to that list.  I'll let you know how it goes!

@ You have very good points Seefood, It does indeed make them much better.
The only problem I have is that for me,  four Mournfangs are more than capable of winning/killing just about anything without good armour of high strength. I've never seen the need for the banner, but this depends of course on what else is in your list, what you pit them against and how you support them.

If they lose a combat, won't the standard bearer die autmoatically? I think he does, but I'm at work now, so can't check it.

If your other units can do their job well enough, and you want a need a very strong hammer, then the banner will be appropriate.
In my own list, I'd rather make another unit stronger, as I find the mourfangs more than capable of doing the job without the banner, but that's just my opinon

And Hamfist, whatever you decide upon, good luck. Looking forward to hearing how it went

If they lose a combat, won't the standard bearer die autmoatically? I think he does, but I'm at work now, so can't check it.

Not if you lose, only if you run away after losing combat.

Thanks Sandals

That will always be in the back of my mind if I'd given the mournfangs a standard. If you somehow manage to lose a fight with them and they flee, it would really hurt losing a potential 130 pts model automatically.

I still think a banner may be worth it in 4+ units though.