2500 - Tyrants or Thundertusk?

Following my test games with yhetees, i'm now looking at a new list, and maybe new strategy....

After a few hours (yes, hours) spent working on different list, i came up with 2 very similar list, with one big difference ; One has a Thundertusk, one has a Tyrant.

First question ; Why a Thundertusk?
Because it works wonder with Ironguts (or even small unit of bulls).
Because it can turn an unlikely challenge into a walk in the park.
Because it add some shooting to my list.
Because its either a fire magnet, or a CC beasts.

Second question ; Why a tyrant?
Because it increase Ld by 1.
Because he turn a unit of 9 bulls into something that can actually fight.
Because he can eat RnF.

The stuff currently in my list that i'm not changing  ;

BSB 189 pts
4+ armor 4+ Wardsave Ironcurse Icon

Butcher 185 pts
lvl2 Lore of Beast HellHeart

9 Ironguts 422 pts
Full Command LoG Standard of Discipline

4 Mournfang Cavalry 350 pts
2+ Saves Dragonhide banner

2x Sabertusk Pack 42 pts

2 Ironblaster 340 pts

If i go back to my old list, I add ;

Slaughtermaster 385 pts
lvl4 Maw Fencers Blade Crown of Command Dispel Scroll Dragonbane Gem

6 Ogres 212 pts
Ironfist

1 Thundertusk

110 pts left

If i decide to go for a Tyrant, i add ;

Tyrant 300 pts
Fencers Blade Glittering Scale Talisman of Endurance

Slaughtermaster 318 pts
lvl4 Maw Ironfist Dispecl Scroll Dragonbane Gem

9 Bulls
Ironfist Full Command LoG

16 pts left

With the thundertusk, i feel forced to put all my character with the IG. Or at the very least, i MUST place my SM in there for the LD bubble.

With the Tyrant, i have a bit more flexibility, and i can put, for example, my Tyrant in the Bulls unit, and the rest in the ironguts.

So it come down to this, what is better, a Tyrant, or a Thundertusk?

Well, I like to cluster my army as much as possible (for leadership, BSB, Augments, etc.).

I run my thundertusk adjacent to my main force. The shooting is OK, but really the main value I seem to get is the ASL aura. You will usually find mine standing in between two combats. Once he runs out of stuff to shoot, (or things are looking very desparate for a unit, I will usually get a flank charge in. Once he gets into CC, he rarely lasts more than 2 turns.

His shooting attacks rarely hurt anything, mainly because of BS3.

Why not play a couple of games with your new list and see how it works out for you?

I'm not entirely convinced that the TTusk works well with Ironguts, it just makes the enemy hit you at the same time as you hit them. It is actually better when combined with Bulls, as they then get to go first.

Personally I like the Tyrant. As you say it gives you a lot more flexability in deployment and gives you a bigger unit of Bulls to boot - 6 aren't going to do a great deal.

Cut the TTusk out completly waste of points. Its only slightly worse than the Stonehorn. The Tyrant rocks and dropping the TTusk let's you have the points to take him all the time. If they FAQ the TTusk and say units instead of models then I'd say take it.

Personally I like the Tyrant. As you say it gives you a lot more flexability in deployment and gives you a bigger unit of Bulls to boot - 6 aren't going to do a great deal.

yeah, i think 9 is a minimum without character.

Cut the TTusk out completly waste of points. Its only slightly worse than the Stonehorn. The Tyrant rocks and dropping the TTusk let's you have the points to take him all the time. If they FAQ the TTusk and say units instead of models then I'd say take it.

Not sold on Stonehorn over the thundertusk yet... stonehorn is more about cc, while thundertusk is about supporting the army. I might give him a chance somedays, but for now he's staying home.

You would still have LD 9 even if you went with the SM since you have the Standard of Discipline, put your SM in there and now he's 9 and the rest of the army can use it (this is basically a loophole in the wording of the Standard of Discipline). That being said I don't think you should take the Thundertusk in combination with your Ironguts since now the rules say that when you both ASL or ASF you go in Initiative order and since IG's are only 2 they are going to go last even with the aura, its best to combine the ASL aura with your regular Ogres or MFC rather than your IG's. For this reason I would take the Tyrant, now your at LD 10 if you put him in with the IG's (which you should) and still add some serious fighting force to your list.

Furthermore with a Tyrant as your general, you don't have to (or rather you shouldn't) spend points to make your SM a fighter since the Tyrant will be better in every way. This means you can by more casting oriented equipment on your SM like the Forbidden Rod if you are using Maw Magic or perhaps Grut's Sickle, Earthing Rod, Dispel Scroll, Hellheart or a Power Stone if you are using Heavens, Death or Beasts.

Just my two cents
Triddion

I've had some success using both a tyrant and thundertusk in the same list.

The tyrant is okay for the points. I get why people are running with SM as their general but you still get a rock hard combat general for not extortionate points.

The thundertusk is pretty vulnerable 250 points but I think it's pretty superior to the stonehorn. You get a solid stone thrower plus a respectable shooting attack. Then you've got the ASL aura that can really help. Yes, with ironguts they'll strike simo but there's a huge difference if all your 'guts get to swing. On top of all that it has respectable damage output.

That being said I don't think you should take the Thundertusk in combination with your Ironguts since now the rules say that when you both ASL or ASF you go in Initiative order and since IG's are only 2 they are going to go last even with the aura, its best to combine the ASL aura with your regular Ogres or MFC rather than your IG's.

Is this how it really works? I thought the rule was only when ASF was in question. Every game I have played or watched has people who have ASL strike simultaneously. If it is for ASL as well then that would indeed greatly reduce the effectiveness of the Thundertusk, pushing further in favor of the tyrant.

It's not how it works. ASL is effectively an initiative step, and everyone that has ASL hits at the same time. In the same vein, everyone who has ASF hits at the same time. Initiative only comes into it if you have both, as you then strike in Initiative order (unless you're a High Elf)

Right. It would make sense if you went in initiative order if both aides have ASL or ASF but that's not how it works.

Although note that high elves only ignore ASL from weapons. If they get in a thundertusk's aura they gain ASL as normal.

I saw the rule about the ASL striking at the same time so my bad on that one  .

However, with the High Elves the rule says that they Ignore all penalties from weapons AND that they always strike first. This basically means that if you have a unit of White Lions (Great Weapons) fighting a Thundertusk they will still strike before it does going in Initiative order at like 6 or something crazy. The ASL aura of the 'Tusk will cancel out the Speed of Asuryan's Always Strike First affect but the Ignoring the penalty from weapons still stands so know they are striking in Initiative order at I 6 which is still faster than the Thundertusk or anything in the Ogre book really.

* so now *

Correct. However, they lose their ASF re-rolls, which is what you're going for with the thundertusk against ASF troops.

I think you should go with the tyrant
because the only unit that benifits
from the thundertusk is ogres and in
your thundertusk list you only have
six so it would be better to go with
the tyrant

Why doesn't the thundertusk benefit mournfangs? Or ironguts? Striking simo is still better than striking last!

Played a game last night, with 2 unit of 9 bulls, a unit of 3 mournfang, a thundertusk, a tyrant, and my usual combo (lvl4/lvl2/BSB).

An unkillable tyrant is a nice sight, i missed him. I'll definately consider keeping him from now on.

How many points? I've been fitting a Tyrant and a Level 4 (just about) at 2500 points but with only 130 points of upgrades to split between the two including all magic items, armour, weapons, etc., I find it hard to find enough points to make even remotely "unkillable" tyrant.

How many points? I've been fitting a Tyrant and a Level 4 (just about) at 2500 points but with only 130 points of upgrades to split between the two including all magic items, armour, weapons, etc., I find it hard to find enough points to make even remotely "unkillable" tyrant.

2500 pts.

My tyrant had Fencer's Blade, 5+ Wardsave and -1 to hit armor.
My SM had  Ironfist, Dispel Scroll and Dragonbane Gem.

Even against WoC (WS5), many RnF took swings at him, and failed. Against WS4, he'd be deadly.

I did play without Crown of Command, which i wasnt too excited about.