Two 2500pt tourney lists looking for criticism

So here are two lists that I've been toying with, would really like to see what you guys think so if you have any thoughts please post  . I'm liking my level 4 using something other than Maw and playing him as more of a caster rather than a fighter. Let me know which lore combinations you guys would suggest between my two casters, I've got enough fiddle room that I can include a Firebelly instead of the Butcher if I want to use fire. Anyway here are the lists:

List one:

Slaughtermaster   340pts
Level 4, Lore of Heavens, Grut’s Sickle,
Charmed Shield

Bruiser BSB      179pts
Lookout Gnoblar, Ironcurse Icon, Heavy Armor,
Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Endurance

Butcher      125pts
Level 1, Lore of the Great Maw, Dispel Scroll

Ogres x11      372pts
Ironfists, Standard, Musician

Ogres x11      361pts
Additional Hand Weapons, Standard, Musician

Ironguts x3      179pts
Command, Standard of Discipline,
Lookout Gnoblar

Gnoblars x40      100pts

Gnoblars x40      100pts

Mournfang Cavalry x3   180pts

Mournfang Cavalry x3   180pts

Sabretusk      21pts

Sabretusk      21pts

Ironblaster      170pts

Ironblaster      170pts

Total: 2498pts, Lords: 340pts, Heroes: 304pts, Core: 1112pts, Special: 402pts, Rare: 340pts

So this list is pretty strait forward, the Ironfist Ogres will be joined by the BSB in the 3 by 4 deep formation to hold up the enemy. The Other Ogre unit with AHW will be joined by the Level 1 caster and the Ironguts would serve simply as a +1LD safety bunker for my SM and give him some wounds to go through when I want to use Grut's Sickle. The two Gnoblar units will go in tarpit formation (5 across by 8 deep) to hold up the enemy so I can sidecharge or combo charge with my MFC, an Ironblaster or the AHW unit of Ogres.

List two:

Slaughtermaster   375pts
Level 4, Lore of Heavens, Grut’s Sickle, Healing Potion, Charmed Shield

Bruiser BSB      179pts
Heavy armor, Lookout Gnoblar, Enchanted shield,
Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon

Butcher      160pts
Level 2, Lore of the Great Maw, Dispel Scroll

Ogres x11      361pts
Standard, Musician, Additional Hand
Weapons

Ogres x11      372pts
Standard, Musician, Ironfists

Ironguts x8      379pts
Standard, Musician, Standard of Discipline,
Lookout Gnoblar

Gnoblars x40      100pts

Gnoblars x40      100pts

Sabretusk       21pts

Sabretusk      21pts

Ironblaster      170pts

Scraplauncher   130pts

Scraplauncher   130pts

Total: 2498pts, Lords: 375pts, Heroes: 339pts, Core: 1312pts, Special: 42pts, Rare: 430pts

Similar idea as the first list only now the Ironguts are more of a fighting force rather than a bunker for my SM. I replaced one of the Ironblasters with two Scrappies, this gives me much more versatile shooting and 3 hard hitting chariots so I'm not losing too much hitting power. This list is more of an battleline one supported by chariots whereas the first is more of a fast moving and powerful striking power. Let me know what you guys think.

Cheers!
Triddion

I like both lists, and as someone who loves to see lots of core for more bodies I prefer the second list, however the first list has things the second doesn't. Having those 2x3 Mournfang really gives some mobile punch to the list, thought you lose a lot of ironguts in the process, meaning your slaughtermaster is very vulnerable comparatively. If you are confident in protecting him with your ogre units and large blocks of gnoblars then I say it could work well. Also I've never been a fan of extra hand weapons on ogres because you only get three attacks from supporting ranks, whereas you will always gain full benefit from the parry/armor save of an ironfist. So that's something to think about as well.

Thanks for the reply!

Yeah I agree that each list has its benefits, and that the fast moving element of the Mournfang list could prove invaluable. As to the Extra Hand Weapons upgrade, I like running 1 unit of each, the IF unit I play as a defensive 'anvil' unit so the extra save is useful, however with the AHW unit I run them 4 wide rather than 4 deep. Giving that unit 4 extra attacks for only 11 points is really nice.

Cheers,
Triddion

List two is superior! Maybe take out a scraplauncher and add 3 leadbelchers for some surprises against High Elves, Tomb Kings, Empire and Chaos warriors!

Personally, I really don't like Leadbelchers since they don't cause very much damage at long range. Using averages, each Leadbelcher will get roughly 3.5 shots a model so lets say a total of 11. 11 shots at BS 3 and long range, you need 5's to hit. 2/3rds of the shots will miss so now you only have about 7 hits. Against Toughness 4 targets you only get 3-4 woulds, but lets say I'm against one of the Toughness 3 lists you mentioned above, I will get about 4 wounds possibly 5 with some good luck. Then the enemy gets armor saves. Granted the armies you mentioned are lightly armored but only 4-5 wounds a turn just doesn't really do it for me. Part of my dislike for Leaddies is that I never roll well when I play them so I may be biased but I may consider playing them in units of 3.

Thanks for your input!
Triddion

I don't really see how the Leadbelchers will help against WoC though due to their high Toughness and armor saves. The only use I can see for them in that situation I guess would be against their Warhounds and Marauder Horsemen. I really like having the 3 chariots because not only do they provide really nice shooting, they provide small frontage moderate damage (even if I clip the very corner of the enemy unit I get max damage from the Scraplauncher whereas if I use the Leadbelchers for close combat and I clip the end of an enemy unit, I only get 1 maybe 2 models to fight, not nearly as effective in close combat).

Cheers,
Triddion

I think you are finding the leadbelchers lack luster because you are treating them the same as one would for bret archers, or dark elf xbows, etc. Just for the sake of comparison and to put things into perspective lets take this example.

20 archers - (Generic Ranged unit)
20 shots at BS 3-4, usually stationary, but also usually at long range (so hitting on 4-5s just like us)
Usually complete ass in close combat, with little to no survivability.

To get comparable killing power from our ranged output we would need (on average) 6 Leadbelchers (3.5 shots x 6 = 21)

While I don't know the numbers I'd say 6 belchers is more expensive than those generic ranged units but those don't have the potential that the belchers have (not to mention belchers take a special slot, which is also something to consider). When I take belchers it's not so that they can plick away at the enemy for consistent damage (although they can certainly do this), but for the potential to pull out a huge number of unexpected fire which can change the flow of the game. While this is purely chance and random factor, the fact that is there changes how people think and respond to it. Another thing to note is that at the end of the day they are also as good in combat as any ol' ogre and can make for a valuable asset once everyone is into the fray, something most dedicated ranged units lack.

So if I were to use units of 3 belchers, I would pretty much only rely on them to take out enemy harassers like furies, light cav, dogs, etc. ~9-10 shots can usually plick off enough to make those guys run or at least deplete their numbers. 3 Belchers would also be sufficient to charge said units as well, should shooting not be good enough. I myself take units of 4-6 to provide more dramatic impact (at the cost of mobility and firing arcs).

I definitely see where you are coming from, I would be able to overlook by bad rolling with the Leadbelchers and give them the benefit of the doubt in saying that they are a powerful shooting force. However, what I cannot resign is that they are an equal fighting power to a Scraplauncher. Because the Scraplauncher is one large model it can clip the end of an enemy unit and get its full fighting power. The Leadies on the other hand would only get one model to fight in that situation (possibly two). Granted by only fielding 3 Leadbelchers I'm not expecting great things in close combat from them. I totally agree that they can out fight any of those light units that you have mentioned and their shooting would be better against said units then the Scraplauncher would. That being said I still would like to try both Scrappies in a few practice games before I decide. You guys have definitely given me something to consider and it would balance the list out considerably.

Thanks for the reply!
Triddion

Basically the Scraplauncher can help support my larger units in close combat whereas the Leadbelchers wouldn't but I do already have 2 chariots so I am seriously considering the Leadbelchers.

Thanks again for the replies, keep em coming 
Triddion

Just a few small tips. The lore of heavens isin't bad, but the lore of beasts better suits your army with the rewarding augments and good direct/magic missile damage spells. Another thing is that leadbelchers are ogres and that means you should advance them up next to your bulls and because they ignore moving and shooting modifiers and they also are great for adding supporting ranks helping you win combat! Leadbelchers aren't your average dwarf handgunners that dont move, they're  hard hitting, black powder shooting ogres! Thats why leadbelchers are so flexible. I understand what you mean when the scraplauncher has better firepower and better in combat, but with only strenght 3 projectiles and a constant threat of misfiring the scraplauncher just might not ending up to your expectations or being worth the points. Loving the 80 gnoblars! One more thing, why run the sabertusks? If their for tying up units they will only get mowed down as soon as they charged, which your oppent recieves a kill point and can overrun/ reform which can lose you the game. Personally, i'd only take them with a hunter or in big packs of 6-8 giving them a real chance in close combat. The lore of the great maw is good with it's flexibility and augments so maybe the lore of beasts for super strong units with wyssan's wildform. Also you could turn your slaughtermaster into a great fire dragon and wreak havoc! They're juat some pointers and things to lookout for, but what ever floats your boat.