8th Edition Tactica - Sabretusks (2011)

DISCLAIMER: The idea with these threads is for them to act as a fountain of collective knowledge for all those wishing to find some useful tactical advice on how to most effectively use particular units in 8th edition. I will collate any useful information in this OP and hopefully we will be able to generate a go-to resource for all Ogre players out there. If you feel like taking charge of another Tactica thread, please do so, just copy the thread title template above for uniformity's sake.

Thanks to the following for their continued contributions (a pet Gnoblar for all who contribute):
Wildcard
Gorger Girl
Firebelcher
Kraton
rocdocta
Far2Casual
Joebungalow
Falconrider



In the first of these Tactica threads, we are having a look at everyone's favourite kitty-cats...the Sabretusks. As the renowned philanthropist, philosopher and Frosties mascot Tony the Tiger reminds us, "they're GRRRRRREAT!"

SABRETUSKS

1)Intro:
Weighing in at around the same price as four Empire halberdiers, our Special choice Sabretusk Packs (each with a statline that boasts high Movement, decent Weapon Skill, three Attacks, two Wounds and an above average Initiative) are clearly one of most intriguing unit selections in the 8th edition Ogre Kingdoms army book. But how to use them to your best benefit?


2) Tactical Strengths:

Fear-Causing:
Sabretusks are often run on the extreme flanks of an army, since they don't benefit from being near the general or bsb.  This means they are often matched up against small enemy units that are also outside the leadership bubbles of their general and bsb and more susceptible to failing such a test.

Additionally, their fear does mean that they don't take fear tests when facing opponents with flaming attacks where other warbeasts have to.

Mobility:
At M8 they can get around the board pretty well, and with swiftstride they can make longer range charges more often than most things in our army.

Warmachine Hunters:
Given the above two factors, Sabretusks excel at warmachine hunting. Simple.
A 5 strong pack gets you 15 attacks, 10 Wounds and the unit can take 4 wounds before being forced to take a panic check.  Pt for pt they are one of the strongest light cav in the game and pose a significant threat to mages, warmachines and flanks/rear of opposing units.

Redirectors/Blocking Charge Lanes:
Great against those pesky Bloodthirsters, or that massive horde of Corsairs, Sabretusks are invaluable at sending frenzied troops haywire or getting that deathstar out of your way.

Place-holders:
They can also act as 'place holders' during the combat phase. For those unfamiliar with this tactic, it basically involves declaring a charge with a dedicated combat unit (e.g. Ironguts) against enemy unit A whilst your Sabretusk declares against enemy unit B that is in line of your Ironguts' overrun lane. Ideally, your Ironguts will destroy and run down the unit they charge, overruning into the second unit and getting to fight all over again since your cat was waiting to fight! Potentially wiping 2 units with one combat block in a phase is a good thing.

Chaff Deployment:
Since it is usually pretty obvious where our cats are going to be placed (namely, on the far flanks), it doesn't hurt to put these guys down first not only to 'box the opponent in' but to also give you a bit of invaluable insight as to where your opponent's army is going down. Since Ogres need to pick their battles wisely, this is a great boon.

Additionally, Joebungalow utilises lone sabretusks as area blockers during deployment against armies employing scouts.  They're fast enough that even when you deploy them in spots that aren't strictly ideal they'll still be back in the game in a turn with a 16" march.  This allows you to keep your main force clustered ideally for buffing, but still not have to watch your back for gutter runners, the scouted doombull, or whatever other scouting annoyance your opponent throws at you.

Small Battlefield Footprint:
In an army wherein deployment space can get used up really quickly, don't overlook the fact that a single cat can also get the charge off through the smallest opening to nail warmachines/targets of opportunity.


3) Tactical Weaknesses:

Poor Leadership:
At Ld4, don't expect these guys to stick around long. If they flee they don't often come back, and if within 8" of an enemy model will be march blocked most of the time. As they will often be on a far flank, it'll be tough to keep them within your BSB bubble.

Cause Panic:
They cause panic when killed.  They are not gnoblars.  Deploying one near another cat or near a gnoblar block, or even an ironblaster could spell bad news if that cat gets shot/magicked to death while it's in a bad position.  You must be careful both in deployment and movement.

No Armour:
Though cats with bats and hats would be cool, unfortunately our meow-meows have just their Toughness to hide behind, lest ye bite off more than ye can chew.


4) Ideal Configurations and List Building:

Single Model Units:
The 'a la mode' configuration at the moment - most tournament builds are running three single Sabretusks selections to maximise the tactical flexibility of their lists.

Small-Mid Size Packs:
While it costs more people have found success using a unit of two as a placeholder and redirector destroyer. I deploy a unit of two the middle of the board to eliminate HE eagles, or other redirectors. The group of two is a big help in erasing redirectors. The overrun usually gets them out of the way to set up a infantry block charge.

A unit of 5 wide has 10 Wounds and pumps out 15 S4 Attacks on the charge, needing to take 6 Wounds before taking a Panic test. This makes them, at 105pts, one of the best warbeasts units in the game, and our version of light cavalry.

Our version of the 'suicide torpedo' works well with these cats. Deplot them 2 wide and 3 ranks deep for an effectice, quick-moving Mage thumper. Don't expect them to live long, but if you can hit a mage face on, you should be able to take them down.

Larger Packs:
People have suggested that it can also be succesful to run larger packs, at least 10 in number. A pack of 12 (6 wide, 2 deep) needs to lose 6 wounds in a turn to panic. This isn't as easy as it sounds. For example, 10 dark elves crossbowmen = 20 shots, long range, multi = 7 hit = 2 wounds. next turn  charge from 15 inches away 20 shots = another 2 wounds. cats have 8 models left leaving 24 WS4 S4 attacks to pummel the Elves.

Remember though, going to a second rank is very inefficient as warbeasts only get a single supporting attack rather than their full complement of three.

With Hunters:


5) Other Observations:

Ok guys, it's up and running....get sharing...

Strengths:

Causing fear.  No seriously.  Sabretusks are often run on the extreme flanks of an army, since they don't benefit from being near the general or bsb.  This means they are often matched up against small enemy units that are also outside the leadership bubbles of their general and bsb and more susceptible to failing such a test.

It's this that can make them ideal for hunting war machines

Mobility.  At M8 they can get around the board pretty well, and with swiftstride they can make longer range charges more often than most things in our army

Weaknesses:

Low leadership.  If they flee they don't often come back, and if within 8" of an enemy model will be march blocked most of the time.

Cause panic when killed.  They are not gnoblars.  Deploying one near another cat or near a gnoblar block, or even an ironblaster could spell bad news in let's a mile high if that cat gets shot/magic to death while it's in a bad position.  You must be careful both in deployment and movement.

I would echo Wildcard, particularly the issue with causing panic when they die.  I would also add that beyond redirecting and war machine hunting they can also be place holders for secondary CC in a phase.  With their small footprint, declare a charge at a unit behind the target of your other combat blocks.  Potentially wiping 2 units with one combat block in a phase is a good thing.  I've only had experience with single packs.   I used them to block charge lanes and redirect frenzy units.

deployment:  since they are only 2 wounds and have no saves of any kind, they can be easily killed by enemy shooting or magic.  deploying them 6" away from anything else so that panic cannot spread.

extreme board edges are the best for this, as they can also do double-duty of blocking the placement of enemy scouts on the flanks of your army.  By placing one near each board edge you give away zero information about your intentions in deployment, while fulfilling both of the above.

Sabertusks, so far I agree with everyone else, unit size of one deployed in such a way that they can't cause other unites to panic when they are destroyed. Great for killing mages, warmachine crews and being used as charge redirectors. However the biggest asset is their use as deployment chaff. Lastly don't forget that they cause fear! (this also makes them immune to fear, handy when charging scull catapults etc).

There is a thread for firebellies already, it hasn't got many posts so could easily be used for any new discussion.

http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=21276.0

Good good....keep it coming...the tactica is building.

Remember, pet gnoblars for good contributions!

Q

While it costs more I have had great success using a unit of two as a placeholder and redirector destroyer. I deploy a unit of two the middle of the board to eliminate HE eagles, or other redirectors. The group of two is a big help in erasing redirectors. The overrun usually gets them out of the way to set up a infantry block charge.

I also love using singles in the center of the board when facing night goblins. They pull out those fanatics so I can shoot them later..

a key strength that i find is that a single cat can also get the charge off through the smallest opening to nail warmachines/targets of opportunity.

combat res bonuses
having 2 wounds and T4, WS4 init 4 means that if the main ogre block is engaging another block from the flank and negating ranks a sabre can engage from the rear or front to make sure that the enemy cant reform (if the cat survives that is!) at most it will give up 2 CR but vs unarmoured units it will generally kill 1 or even 2.

Large units of cats
i tried a unit of 10. 6 wide, 2 deep. it needs to lose 6 wounds in a turn to panic.  this isnt as easy as it sounds.

ie dark elves = 20 shots, long range, multi = 7 hit = 2 wounds. next turn  charge from 15 inches away 20 shots = another 2 wounds. cats have 8 models left so 24 str 4 ws4 attacks.

the suicide torpedo - Use a large unit of 5+ to kill mages such as teclis. run them 1 or 2 wide. it will be obvious what you are doing and a smart player will put the mage in the second rank. but if they dont you nail them. sure you will lose most of the cats but you generally only need 1 or 2 cats to survive to kill a mage.

Equipment
perceived Pros
Str 4 - they are as strong as an ogre bull.
T4 - they are as tough as an ogre bull
swift stride and move 8 - with careful planning will be able to terrain hop and minimise ranged fire. they have an average threat range of at least 15 inches

perceived Cons
No armour
well vs anything S4 or S3 armour piercing 5+ armour is almost as good as no armour. sure there is a chance, but thats not much of a chance really. 1/6 wounds saved.

Ld4
Sure any tests that they make will probably fail. so use them in a way that they dont have to make many tests!
Missiles - screen them with terrain or other units. i would rather lose cheaper unit than a panic test on a bull unit out of general range.
Combat - dont bite off more than they can chew. pick off enemy outrider units or small combat units or ranged units
March blocked - dont ever expect to march with them if they will be blocked. 
Panic - Keep them away from other cat units.

No impact hits or stomp - sure its nice to have a couple of free CR damage but you get 1.5 cats per bull with iron fist. a unit of 6 bulls, IF, FC = 10.85 sabres. so potentially you could have larger units to soak up the damage and actually win the battle. it reminds me of the Bulls vs IG debate. vs ASF GW elves an IG unit may not have enough models left to damage the elves and will lose. the bulls may be able to claw their way from defeat with a large enough unit. the dogs are the same.

ie for the same points you can get
10 IF bulls, FC  with 30 wounds (panic at 9 wounds) or
7.7 IGs FC with 16 wounds (panic at 6 wounds) or
17.4 cats with 34 wounds (panic at 8 wounds)

Another tactic that might not have been mentionned, or I missed it.

The double combat resolution trick. Basically, this situation : your opponent blocks one of your big units with a cheap troop, and parks a medium one behind it. If you charge the cheap one, you'll destroy it and basically overrun into the medium one. Your turn will then end and he will countercharge your unit with a big one.

The trick is then to charge the medium unit behind with a Sabretusk while charging the small one with your big unit. You resolve the combat of your unit first, overrun into the combat behind with your Sabretusk and resolve that one after it. You often destroy that unit and escape the gangbang.

I made a video on it. It's in french but I use models to explain it, and it's self explanatory :
t=8m40s

Additional point for our "chaff deployment" section:

I utilize lone sabretusks as area blockers during deployment against armies employing scouts.  They're fast enough that even when you deploy them in spots that aren't stricktly ideal they'll still be back in the game in a turn with a 16" march.  This allows you to keep your main force clustered ideally for buffing, but still not have to watch your back for gutter runners, the scouted doombull, or whatever other scouting annoyance your opponent throws at you.

I've also had success running individual models with multiple charges into blocks with a mage in the front rank.  The opponent must designate which models are striking which cat, as each is technically a seperate unit, which minimizes the ability of the unit to "pass on" wounds to the next cat.  At their I, they'll generally go before most mages, and have been able to down the level 2s that I've placed them against so far.  It's worth their points, even though they will die in the effort, so long as I don't have something else that needs marchblocked with them instead.

i am trialling the ogre ambush with sabres, mannies and 2 hunters in 2200 points.

Vanguard
Hunter, 6 sabres
Hunter, 6 sabres
4 mannies, 1 pistol, stubborn, vanguard
4 mannies, 1 pistol, poison, scout

so i get 3 units moving on by vanguard
1 unit is already there by scouting.
will be interesting to see how it works out.

i am trialling the ogre ambush with sabres, mannies and 2 hunters in 2200 points.

Vanguard
Hunter, 6 sabres
Hunter, 6 sabres
4 mannies, 1 pistol, stubborn, vanguard
4 mannies, 1 pistol, poison, scout

so i get 3 units moving on by vanguard
1 unit is already there by scouting.
will be interesting to see how it works out.

Don't forget your core requirement!

Another tactic that might not have been mentionned, or I missed it.

The double combat resolution trick. Basically, this situation : your opponent blocks one of your big units with a cheap troop, and parks a medium one behind it. If you charge the cheap one, you'll destroy it and basically overrun into the medium one. Your turn will then end and he will countercharge your unit with a big one.

The trick is then to charge the medium unit behind with a Sabretusk while charging the small one with your big unit. You resolve the combat of your unit first, overrun into the combat behind with your Sabretusk and resolve that one after it. You often destroy that unit and escape the gangbang.

I made a video on it. It's in french but I use models to explain it, and it's self explanatory :

t=8m40s

A gnoblar for a great tactic and an awesome video.

i am trialling the ogre ambush with sabres, mannies and 2 hunters in 2200 points.

Vanguard
Hunter, 6 sabres
Hunter, 6 sabres
4 mannies, 1 pistol, stubborn, vanguard
4 mannies, 1 pistol, poison, scout

so i get 3 units moving on by vanguard
1 unit is already there by scouting.
will be interesting to see how it works out.

Don't forget your core requirement!

The one advantage I could see with this tactic is that you can cut your deployment zone down immensely. You deploy your normal core behind your vanguarding units. This might work very well against armies with little shooting as they will have units far away from your block.

A fantastic video Far2Casual.

Keep it coming guys, see if you can fill in some areas that are a bit thin - remember, share from experiences that you've had/seen.

Q

p.s. try to avoid discussing particular army builds, keep it to general tactica...

A 5 strong pack gets you 15 attacks, 10 Wounds and the unit can take 4 wounds before being forced to take a panic check.  Pt for pt they are one of the strongest light cav in the game and pose a significant threat to mages, warmachines and flanks/rear of opposing units.

Having I4 means you can stick them right into the face of many similiar functioning units with imputence.  The downside is they arn't fast cav but with M8 and swiftstride it shouldn't be too much of a problem manourving them.  All this power and only 105 points makes them sacrificial if the need arises.

Going to a second rank is very inefficient.  As warbeasts they only get a single supporting attack rather than their usual 3.

Even with a hunter, it's not worth doing.  A second smaller unit would always be the better investment of points.

Note for strengths: their fear does mean that they don't take fear tests when facing opponents with flaming attacks where other warbeasts have to.

Without reading, to not influence my judgement about sabertusks. I find them very effective in many ways. The fact that your opponent see's me fielding 1 as a unit, looks at me with a puzzled face. This way I don't give away where I will be placing my other units. I use them as charge bait. Their init is good and for flank charges can give that extra CR if they survive. Sacrificing them to charge a unit that has a wizard and placing all attacks on the wizard is worth the sacrifice. Of course, artillery hunting gives great results. I admire the fact for 21 pts, it has str 4, T 4 and WS 4. All in all, I have used them more in a single unit.

need to draw fanatics out of that crazy unit of night gobbos? Now you can with 0800 sabertusk removals!

Here's another trick for single Sabertusks. When playing against Daemons with Siren Song, or Dwarfs with Rune Of Challenge, Sabertusks can be deployed in front of the "hammer" units ('fangs, Ironguts etc.), in order to avoid them being drawn out of the battleline involuntarily. If later on you want to charge something, declare both units (sabertusk and hammer unit) to the same target.

2) Tactical Strengths:

Fear-Causing:
Sabretusks are often run on the extreme flanks of an army, since they don't benefit from being near the general or bsb.  This means they are often matched up against small enemy units that are also outside the leadership bubbles of their general and bsb and more susceptible to failing such a test.

...


3) Tactical Weaknesses:

Poor Leadership:
At Ld4, don't expect these guys to stick around long. If they flee they don't often come back, and if within 8" of an enemy model will be march blocked most of the time. As they will often be on a far flank, it'll be tough to keep them within your BSB bubble.

...

As pointed out in the first bit, they don't benefit from the BSB re-roll or the general's leadership. That's why it's no sacrifice to put them on the far flanks.

I don't think it is mentioned here but you can use tusks to get the charge when it is important about who gets the charge.  Consider that they have a big unit of tomb king chariots and you have a unit of 4 mournfangs, you could park the tusk about 4 inches away from the chariots, park the mournfangs about 16 inches away from the chariots.  Makes it unlikely that the chariots can overrun into your mournfangs and if they charge the tusk they will be in almost guaranteed charge range of the fangs.  I guess in this scenario everyone is frozen until help arrives but it gives you time to pump ironblaster shots through the chariots.  If you are a little closer with your mournfang risking or tempting the chariots a little more, get another inch closer with the fangs perhaps.  You can then charge both at the chariots after they freeze on their turn but they may risk it and get lucky here only needing an 11 or if they don't charge, you have a little more chance to fail your charge with the fangs, send the tusk in for naught and get charged the following turn so the risk is there.

With hunters, they have swiftstride and vangaurd. If you take the 10 strong pack with a hunter, you get vangaurd and swiftstride, ld. 9, an extra impact hit, and more attacks. If you are going to do this, take a naked hunter, as he is worth the points for the bonuses, I think, at only 25 pts. more than a hunter and you get the throwing spear. Get this unit into combat asap and buff them once, they should slaughter any weaker combat unit.

Another tactic is to use the vangaurd and march 16" to get behind the enemy and slaughter anything on a rear charge. This should happen about turn 4 with the swiftstride, and to get something out of combat is helpful to. Or another option is to have a unit of 6 ogres or so with a maw wizard, hold them back till you can get behind someone with a hunter pack, and crunch a unit with a double charge and a bubble buff. Rinse, wash, repeat.

Other observations: don't be afraid to put one in front of a big unit of archers, as the enemy will probably not shoot at a single because of the low point value.

One tactic that I have found useful is I deploy 1 tusk near my main combat block lurking behind and off to one side. Plan is to combo charge the cat and my IG;s (or insert any unit here) into a unit and try to break it. If the cat is alive at the end of the combat and the enemy unit does break I can run them down with the cat w/swiftstride and it let's me reform my IG unit to take on the next threat.

Only downside is if the enemy decide to try and take him out with ranged fire. But if you hide him right this is kinda hard pull off and you still have your generals LD and BsB around for any rolls you need.

On trick/tactic I've been using lately has been "Escorting" big infantry blocks. Basically you park a tusk one inch away from a big blocks flank and watch it struggle to maneuver. The block has to make a leadership test to march, and can only turn towards the flank the sabretusk is on. If the block reforms to face the sabretusk, you should be able to move to the flank again. If not, you have your sabretusk act as a redirector.

In the last few games I've managed to take big blocks completely out of the game while focusing on the rest of my opponents army.